16:03:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:03:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-irc
16:03:24 <gkellogg> zakim, who's here?
16:03:24 <Zakim> Present: pchampin, gkellogg_, ora, Tpt, pfps, AndyS, olaf, gtw, AZ, TallTed, Timothe, enrico, doerthe, Dominik_T, rubensworks, gkellogg, ktk
16:03:24 <TallTed> gotta have the RRSAgent to get the logs, minutes, etc.
16:03:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, doerthe, pfps, ora, olaf, AndyS, gkellogg, TallTed, rubensworks, driib, Zakim, Tpt, rhiaro, VladimirAlexiev, gtw, ktk, csarven, Timothe, agendabot, pchampin,
16:03:26 <Zakim> ... ghurlbot
16:03:45 <gkellogg> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:03:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html gkellogg
16:03:56 <TallTed> Zakim, start meeting
16:03:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:03:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), TallTed
16:04:02 <gkellogg> rrsagent, make logs public
16:04:17 <Tpt> scribe+
16:04:32 <pfps> present+
16:04:32 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star WG weekly call
16:04:39 <gkellogg> regrets+  DTomaszuk, EFranconi
16:04:53 <TallTed> present+
16:05:12 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Gschwend, Adrian (alternate: Pellissier Tanon, Thomas) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:17 <TallTed> chair: ora, ktk
16:05:23 <gkellogg> zakim, close item
16:05:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', gkellogg
16:05:29 <gkellogg> zakim, close item 1
16:05:29 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Gschwend, Adrian (alternate: Pellissier Tanon, Thomas), closed
16:05:32 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:05:32 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:05:32 <Tpt> scribe: Tpt, ktk
16:05:41 <pfps> minutes look good to me
16:06:04 <pchampin> Présent+
16:06:09 <ora> proposal: approve last week's minutes
16:06:11 <ora> +1
16:06:13 <ktk> +1
16:06:14 <Tpt> +1
16:06:19 <olaf> +1
16:06:21 <gkellogg> +1
16:06:25 <rubensworks> +1
16:06:26 <doerthe> +1
16:06:27 <AndyS> +1
16:06:29 <TallTed> present+ Tpt, ktk, olaf, AndyS, gtw, doerthe
16:06:32 <TallTed> +1
16:06:33 <gtw> +1
16:06:39 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:06:54 <ora> resolution: approve last week's minutes
16:07:02 <Tpt> zakim, close item
16:07:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Tpt
16:07:09 <Tpt> zakim, close item 1
16:07:09 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Gschwend, Adrian (alternate: Pellissier Tanon, Thomas), closed
16:07:11 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:07:11 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:07:15 <Tpt> zakim, close item 2
16:07:15 <Zakim> agendum 2, Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html, closed
16:07:17 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:07:17 <Zakim> 3. Update on Use Case Proposals [from agendabot]
16:07:35 <TallTed> i/minutes look/topic: approve last week's minutes/
16:07:48 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:07:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:08:16 <TallTed> Zakim, open item 3
16:08:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Update on Use Case Proposals -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:08:37 <Tpt> pfps: It would be nice if people would contribute more use cases
16:08:56 <Tpt> pfps: the CDOC-CRM usecase is progressing but what the user want is still unclear
16:09:00 <ora> q+
16:09:08 <gtw> s/CDOC/CIDOC/
16:09:24 <ora> ack ora
16:09:31 <Tpt> pfps: We don't have many usecases but the ones I have seen have different semantics, either opaque or transparent
16:10:43 <pchampin> I'm interested in the wikidata UC
16:10:46 <Tpt> pfps: Wikidata has a lot things that RDF won't get. I would like to see what part of Wikidata they are the most interested in to figure out what semantic would support the usecase
16:10:56 <ktk> q+
16:11:46 <ktk> q-
16:12:11 <Tpt> pfps: This way we can take this into account and either accommodate the usecase or consciously choose to don't support this usecase
16:12:53 <gkellogg> q+
16:12:59 <doerthe> q+
16:13:01 <Tpt> ora: anything else?
16:13:24 <ktk> q+
16:13:34 <Tpt> pfps: One more thing, I sent emails to a few mailing list (semantic web) to ask for more use cases but didn't get any response
16:13:34 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:13:39 <pfps> I sent out an email asking for new use cases.
16:14:15 <ora> q?
16:14:26 <ora> ack doerthe
16:14:29 <Tpt> pfps: I plan to build a list of all the usecases to be used as an input for the working group
16:15:01 <Tpt> doerthe: Question about transparent vs opaque semantic
16:15:20 <TallTed> scribe- ktk
16:16:09 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:16:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:16:32 <Tpt> pfps: opaque, transparent and semi opaque are three option about the the meaning of the quoted triple. opaque = what matters is the syntactic form, transparent = what matters is the meaning, semi-opaque = for blank node meaning matters but for others it is only the syntax. The CG followed the semi-opaque route.
16:17:28 <AndyS> q+
16:17:38 <Tpt> pfps: Do we want to support usecases where blank node identifiers matters? I have tried to summarize neutrally the use cases on the wiki page
16:18:14 <ora> ack ktk
16:18:22 <TallTed> s/transparent and semi opaque/transparent, and semi-opaque/
16:18:44 <TallTed> s/for blank node meaning matters but for others/for blank node, meaning matters; for others,/
16:19:26 <pfps> q+
16:19:38 <pfps> q-
16:19:44 <Tpt> ktk: We got an email from Gorge from Google. It is nice to get feedbacks from graph people
16:20:32 <Tpt> ??: Happy to join the group.
16:20:41 <ora> ack AndyS
16:21:00 <ktk> s/Gorge/George Daquila/
16:21:00 <pfps> I send out email asking for new use cases or updates on old use case
16:21:28 <Tpt> AndyS: It would be great to have definitions on opaque/transparent/semi-opaque to refer to
16:21:49 <Tpt> pfps: What about the semantic group meets and write a recap of the definitions
16:21:59 <gkellogg> Maybe in RDF Terminology: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/main/docs/rdf-terminology.md
16:22:15 <pfps> action pfps to ensure that semantic task force writes up something on opaque vs transparent semantic
16:22:40 <pfps> ACTION pfps to ensure that semantic task force writes up something on opaque vs transparent semantic
16:22:45 <pfps> ACTION: pfps to ensure that semantic task force writes up something on opaque vs transparent semantic
16:22:53 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #65 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/65
16:22:56 <ora> q?
16:23:26 <gkellogg> zakim, next item
16:23:26 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Update on Semantic TF -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:23:56 <Tpt> ora: Enrico is not here, should we postpone
16:24:02 <Tpt> pfps: Yes, we should
16:24:05 <richard_lea> richard_lea has joined #rdf-star
16:24:12 <Tpt> ora: Let's postpone
16:24:14 <Tpt> zakim, next item
16:24:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, Tpt
16:24:22 <Tpt> zakim, close item 4
16:24:22 <Zakim> agendum 4, Update on Semantic TF, closed
16:24:23 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:24:23 <Zakim> 5. Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 [from agendabot]
16:24:54 <pchampin> q+
16:25:04 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:25:04 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:25:12 <pchampin> q+
16:25:49 <ktk> s/??/richard_lea/
16:26:14 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:26:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:26:33 <Tpt> pchampin: Contribution from not-working group members: we will be warned if pull requests are opened
16:26:55 <TallTed> Only have to explicitly `close` an agenda item if zakim complains that it was just opened. Always have to `open` or `next` after an explicit `close`.
16:27:07 <Tpt> TallTed: Thank you
16:27:28 <richard_lea> I see ktk mentioned my name in a sort of regexp-like writing with slash followed with double question mark, which is sure whether a kind of predefined command in this IRC programme?
16:27:53 <Tpt> pchampin: If you go to  https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-semantics it works
16:28:07 <ktk> s/graph people/property graph people/
16:28:12 <Tpt> pchampin: We created all the shortcuts we decided
16:28:31 <Tpt> pchampin: This was action https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/63
16:28:36 <TallTed> s/action pfps to ensure that semantic task force writes up something on opaque vs transparent semantic//
16:28:36 <TallTed> s/ACTION pfps to ensure that semantic task force writes up something on opaque vs transparent semantic//
16:28:36 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:28:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:28:43 <Tpt> pchampin: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/62 is still ongoing
16:28:47 <ktk> Scribe: Tpt
16:29:25 <Tpt> pchampin: In https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/63 a few RDF 1.1 recommendations are linking to the version-less links. These should be fixed in place imho.
16:29:41 <TallTed> richard_lea — that was a command to the scribe bot, which processes https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-irc to make https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:29:47 <ktk> s/We got an/I see Richard Lea from Rakuten for the first time, welcome to the group. Also We got an/
16:29:53 <gkellogg> q+ to ask about Echidna
16:30:32 <Tpt> pchampin: Echida  should work on REQ documents, let's keep https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/55 open until we have ensured it  works everywhere and for the notes
16:30:47 <TallTed> richard_lea — learn more here https://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html
16:30:53 <ora> ack pchampin
16:30:58 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:30:58 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to ask about Echidna
16:31:17 <ktk> richard_lea: can you write "present+" on the console?
16:31:21 <ktk> here I mean
16:31:25 <TallTed> present+ richard_lea
16:31:32 <ktk> ok works as well :)
16:31:41 <pchampin> q+
16:31:43 <richard_lea> present+
16:31:43 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:31:51 <richard_lea> Like this?
16:31:58 <ktk> richard_lea: yes, do that once you join for a call so it's recorded
16:32:00 <Tpt> gkellogg: We need a pull request to kick up Echida
16:32:08 <richard_lea> However I could not find the definition about the present followed with a plus symbol
16:32:18 <richard_lea> in that page of scribe.html
16:32:20 <ora> ack pchampin
16:32:50 <Tpt> pchampin: A pull request needs to change something in the published document to get published by Echida, editing for example the README is not enough
16:32:53 <ktk> TallTed: it does not seem to remove me as scribe, even if I explicitly set "Scribe: ..." any ideas?
16:33:20 <TallTed> s/tallted:/ktk:/
16:34:28 <Tpt> Zakim, next item
16:34:28 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Review of pull requests, available at  -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:34:35 <gkellogg> q+
16:35:01 <Tpt> ora: Where are we with the mobile CSS?
16:35:02 <TallTed> s/scribe: Tpt, ktk/scribe: Tpt/
16:35:22 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:35:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:35:31 <Tpt> [no real answer on mobile CSS]
16:35:32 <rubensworks> q+
16:35:41 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:36:06 <ora> ack rubensworks
16:36:16 <Tpt> gkellogg: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-trig/pull/24 makes the same change to TriG that were already done to Turtle
16:36:17 <rubensworks> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv/pull/24
16:36:40 <TallTed> s/TallTed: Thank you/Tpt: TallTed -- Thank you/
16:37:02 <Tpt> rubensworks: This PR is adding quoted triples to the CSV/TSV. It was not in the CG report
16:37:10 <Tpt> ora: Do you want more people to take a look
16:37:28 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:37:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:37:36 <Tpt> rubensworks: Not necessarily, just wanted to highlight this PR
16:38:06 <Tpt> ora: Anything else? ... Nothing, ok
16:38:25 <Tpt> ora: I urge people to take a look at PR to see if you could review/comment
16:38:29 <pchampin> q+
16:39:23 <ora> ack pchampin
16:39:39 <Tpt> pchampin: If we have a few minutes, could you briefly explain the ideas of the CSV/TSV pull request?
16:40:06 <TallTed> richard_lea -- Documentation of `present+` is at <https://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot#present>.  We have several bots. :-)
16:40:29 <Tpt> rubensworks: It's straightforward. It inherits the existing grammar with "<<" and recursively encodes with the existing rules for CSV and TSV
16:40:47 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:40:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:40:54 <Tpt> pchampin: If I understand correctly there is an ambiguity with IRIs and strings
16:41:05 <Tpt> rubensworks: Yes, indeed.
16:41:20 <Tpt> pchampin: We can live with that, CSV is already a lossly format
16:41:33 <ora> q?
16:41:39 <TallTed> s|s/tallted:/ktk:/|s/TallTed:/ktk:/|
16:41:49 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:41:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:41:57 <Tpt> s/lossly/lossy/
16:42:02 <Tpt> zakim, next item
16:42:02 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Discussion on named graphs  -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:43:23 <Tpt> ora: We have an issue around named graphs. This topic keeps coming up and Dan Brickley replied to George from Google and made comments on named graph
16:43:51 <Tpt> ora: This is an issue we need to address in this group
16:44:14 <AndyS> q+
16:44:18 <ktk> q+
16:44:36 <ora> ack AndyS
16:45:17 <Tpt> AndyS: This is the question about the named graph and the meaning of graph name into triples
16:46:16 <ora> ack ktk
16:46:16 <Tpt> AndyS: We have the opportunity to define a new syntax. The existing solutions based on named graphs are not always very usable. It is similar to language direction.
16:46:56 <Tpt> ktk: We talked about patching named graph but we ruled it out because everyone in "street RDF" have opinion on named graphs
16:47:22 <Tpt> ktk: However, we get a lot questions about graphs, why triples stores when we manipulate often quads...
16:47:31 <Tpt> ktk: We should maybe write some best practices
16:48:02 <Tpt> ktk: When we talked about profiles, I was thinking that we could get different "profiles" on named graphs
16:48:09 <ora> q+
16:48:23 <Tpt> ktk: Named graphs are hardly reusable because they get very different usecases
16:48:28 <pchampin> +1 ktk
16:48:35 <Tpt> ora: In my work I am using named graphs only in internal usages
16:48:46 <ora> ack ora
16:48:52 <pchampin> q+
16:48:58 <ora> ack pchampin
16:50:04 <ktk> s/patching/touching/
16:50:07 <Tpt> pchampin: I generally agree. One think about keeping named graphs internals, one usecase where it might be hard is Solid/Linked Data Platform (LDP): a LDP platform is a set of named graphs and Solid want to build access controls.
16:50:09 <doerthe> q+
16:50:32 <Tpt> pchampin: Named graphs are in the public space in this case
16:50:51 <ora> ack doerthe
16:50:56 <Tpt> pchampin: It might be nice to get a profile for these usecases
16:51:39 <Tpt> doerthe: I agree, there are multiple semantic for named graphs, we should at least write down the relation between the RDF-star semantic we have chosen and possible named graphs semantics
16:51:53 <Tpt> ora: Might I suggest someone writes something about it to be able to point to it
16:52:18 <Tpt> doerthe: The problem for me is that RDF-star semantic is not fixed, when it's fixed I would be happy to write something
16:52:28 <pchampin> q+
16:52:35 <ora> ack pchampin
16:53:34 <doerthe> for the record https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-datasets/
16:53:49 <ktk> Look what I just found googling doerthe: https://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2438/paper6.pdf :)
16:53:52 <ktk> when was that?
16:53:58 <TallTed> q+ to remind that quads originated as subject–>predicate–>object–>*context*, and graph-name has emerged as the most common, but not the only, context
16:54:07 <ora> ack TallTed
16:54:07 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to remind that quads originated as subject–>predicate–>object–>*context*, and graph-name has emerged as the most common, but not the only, context
16:54:09 <Tpt> pchampin: Here is a proposal: we can point the notes from the previous working group on possible semantic of named graph.  https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-datasets/ This is a reminder for people asking named graphs semantic and why we can't rely on named graphs for RDF-star semantic. In the future we might build named star semantic on top of quoted
16:54:09 <Tpt> triples semantic. The reason we don't started with named graphs is because they do not have proper semantic.
16:54:11 <AndyS> q+
16:54:36 <doerthe> :)
16:54:55 <ora> ack AndyS
16:55:35 <TallTed> quoted graphs are dangerous ... but feel so much more logical than limiting to quoted triples
16:55:43 <Tpt> AndyS: We will very quickly get into the "quote graph" issue and we will get from quoted triples to quoted graphs topic. We should making clear what the boundaries of our work are.
16:56:39 <TallTed> s/quote graph/quoted graph/
16:57:16 <Tpt> AndyS: They were about maybe 3-4 cases on named graphs semantic in the original DAWG. The graph name is indirectly associated with the graph. It is most clearly explained in the graph store protocol schema https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/
16:57:22 <pchampin> And there was the 'named graph' paper by Hayes and Carroll, whose proposal is very different from RDF 1.1's "named graphs" :->
16:57:36 <Tpt> Zakim, next item
16:57:36 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:57:48 <Tpt> Zakim, next item
16:57:48 <Zakim> agendum 8 was just opened, Tpt
16:58:01 <Tpt> ora: Time is over, regrets for next week
16:58:13 <TallTed> pchampin -- it'd be great if you'd comment about that difference, in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46
16:58:45 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
16:58:54 <Tpt> rssagent, generate minutes
16:59:13 <Tpt> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:59:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html Tpt
17:00:28 <TallTed> s/rssagent, generate minutes//
17:00:36 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:08:44 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:15:28 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
17:19:25 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:23:06 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #rdf-star
17:42:34 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:50:25 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:05:23 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:11:39 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:32:15 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:34:41 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:47:00 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:59:29 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:20:16 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:37:14 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:42:14 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
19:51:28 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:53:27 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
20:09:20 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
20:27:24 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
20:29:53 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
20:34:42 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
21:55:06 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:03:05 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
22:10:17 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:26:41 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:45:20 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:49:43 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
23:01:28 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
23:08:01 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
23:10:16 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #rdf-star
23:28:24 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
23:30:21 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
23:46:09 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
<pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> present- AZ
<pchampin> present- Dominik_T
<pchampin> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230615T120000/#agenda