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18:55:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:55:02 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
18:55:24 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
18:55:33 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
18:55:36 <Matt_King> present+
18:55:45 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:55:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
18:56:12 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting date
18:56:22 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-at
18:56:40 <Matt_King> View agenda at https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/73db98be-5f97-4ff8-a4b1-c689a93f0784/20230615T120000#agenda
18:57:04 <Matt_King> Next meeting is Wednesday June 21
18:57:17 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:57:27 <Matt_King> Automation meeting on Monday June 19
18:57:40 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:57:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
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19:05:08 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:05:29 <jugglinmike> present+ Sam_Shaw
19:09:36 <jugglinmike> Topic: Navigation menu button: conflicting test results
19:09:51 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Feedback: "Open a menu in interaction mode" (Navigation Menu Button, Test 11) · Issue #960 · w3c/aria-at
19:11:21 <jugglinmike> s/subtopic:.*/subtopic: Inconsistent announcement of W3C Quick Links Menu "Open a menu in interaction mode" (Navigation Menu Button, Test 11) · Issue #959/
19:11:34 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/959
19:11:40 <jugglinmike> present+ Alyssa
19:11:58 <jugglinmike> Alyssa: This concerns NVDA and Firefox. I was experience inconsistent behavior
19:12:24 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:12:36 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I tested this twice and observed consistent results
19:14:07 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I believe this was for the "Enter" key specifically
19:14:24 <jugglinmike> Alyssa: I know that the "Down arrow" key did it once, but it didn't the other times I tried
19:16:04 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
19:16:24 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I cannot get NVDA to say the role or the name no many how many times I try
19:17:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For me, focus mode is never automatic. After hitting the "run setup" button, I have to change into focus mode
19:17:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If I turn on focus mode when my focus is on the menu button, NVDA seems to expand the menu...
19:19:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah, this is impacted by settings. It behaves differently now that I've reverted to NVDA's default settings
19:19:45 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: if you review the speech history, you can see that it interrupts itself, so some of its output is never audible
19:21:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Down arrow is definitely inconsistent, so I think it's safe to say that it doesn't do it
19:22:20 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm experiencing that today, too. I will update my submission
19:25:28 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Even though we aren't testing key echo, if the AT speaks the key in response to the command, I think we should include that in the output.
19:27:48 <jugglinmike> Topic: Slider: conflicting test results
19:28:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have two issues here. One was raised by Hadi_Rangin
19:28:25 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi_Rangin
19:29:09 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Feedback: "Increment a slider by one step in interaction mode" (Color Viewer Slider, Test 10)
19:29:15 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/955
19:29:47 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: JAWS was repeating itself
19:29:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I can't reproduce this
19:30:19 <jugglinmike> Hadi_Rangin: I didn't see it, either. I'm pretty sure that I used default settings
19:31:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Although I didn't make sure Firefox was up-to-date on my machine. Sometimes, with a focus event, it's possible that the browser could cause double-speak
19:32:43 <jugglinmike> [everyone checks the version of Firefox that is installed on their machines]
19:33:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hadi's was with Firefox 113
19:33:32 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: So was IsaDC's
19:34:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the GitHub issue says Firefox version 112. This may be a bug in ARIA-AT App
19:34:54 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Both testers were using the same version of JAWS 2023.2303.144
19:35:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That matches the version of JAWS I have installed right now
19:38:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: The repeated speech only occurs when I press "up" or "down", not when I press "right" or "left." And it only does it for the first press. It correctly speaks just one time for each subsequent press
19:40:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm still not experiencing this, and the speech history looks correct, as well
19:41:13 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: If I refresh the page, it only says it once
19:41:53 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: JAWS (more than NVDA) has problems with caching
19:42:53 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: IsaDC copied this from the speech history, so I'm reluctant to call this a quirk and move on
19:43:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I've hard-refreshed the browser, restarted JAWS, and ran the test again
19:44:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I only heard the value read once, and it also only appears once in the speech history
19:45:21 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I can no longer reproduce it. Now, JAWS says "129" followed by a pause as if it was going to continue speaking, but it says nothing more
19:46:35 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I will update my test plan
19:46:41 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Feedback: "Navigate forwards to a slider" (Color Viewer Slider, Test 5) · Issue #956 · w3c/aria-at
19:46:53 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/956
19:47:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't see the redundant speech that Dylan recorded
19:48:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we have to consider help messages when validating the output
19:48:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: James Craig told us that something like 85% of VoiceOver users have hints turned off
19:49:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think we should "editorialize" tutor messages provided by default by screen readers
19:49:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Like, saying that those are excessively verbose, doesn't seem right
19:50:11 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think we need to be consistent with whether "help" text is subject to validation or not
19:51:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hints are part of the output, and we can have an opinion about what they say. However, if we say something about this particular hint, we'd have to say something about every single VoiceOver test
19:51:59 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Yes, that's why I thought that hints were not part of verdict assignment. But they have been subject to the criteria for "unexpected output"
19:53:03 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I suggest that we don't consider hints during verdict assignment (possibly to the degree that we don't collect it as AT responses)
19:53:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we should be consistent: if the screen reader says something, it's part of the output, and we should record it
19:54:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: From a verdict assignment perspective, I think we can choose whether or not to validate the hint. For instance, if it repeats the hint, that would be excessive output
19:55:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If the hint is just plain wrong, then I think we probably should say something about that being an undesirable behavior
19:55:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I'm concerned that we're giving testers inconsistent instruction--we're telling them to judge the hint text with some standards but not others
19:57:50 <jugglinmike> Hadi_Rangin: I think we should be able to label hints as excessive or incorrect, but choice of words should be the implementer's responsibility
19:58:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm happy to fine-tune the wording of the checkboxes for undesirable behavior. In this case, I'd like to know more about Dylan's rationale
20:00:03 <jugglinmike> Hadi_Rangin: When we are recording the undesirable behavior, is it possible to make the "other" a separate checkbox?
20:00:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The undesirable behaviors are all checkboxes
20:00:44 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Right, so you can check one or more
20:01:06 <garcialo> present+
20:03:08 <jugglinmike> zakim, end the meeting
20:03:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, Sam_Shaw, Alyssa, IsaDC, James_Scholes, Hadi_Rangin, garcialo
20:03:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:03:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:03:17 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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