14:01:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:01:08 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-irc
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14:02:12 <Ege> chair: Ege
14:02:21 <Ege> Meeting: WoT Thing Description
14:02:58 <Ege> present+ Ege_Korkan, Michael_Koster, Jan_Romann
14:03:49 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot-td
14:04:14 <Ege> present+ Luca_Barbato
14:04:42 <Ege> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html Ege
14:05:12 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:05:35 <Ege> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:06:43 <Ege> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
14:07:30 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
14:08:34 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
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14:08:42 <Ege> rrsagent, make log public
14:09:10 <JKRhb> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
14:09:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb
14:11:09 <luca_barbato> scribenick: luca_barbato
14:11:45 <luca_barbato> topic: Past Minutes
14:12:06 <luca_barbato> ege: We note the changes to be done on IRC and then kaz will edit accordingly if needed
14:12:49 <luca_barbato> ege: Usual editing for the names
14:14:35 <luca_barbato> <overall review>
14:14:46 <luca_barbato> ege: Consensus on the Minutes?
14:16:01 <luca_barbato> ege: To recap: names and merging `minutes` and `minutes review`
14:16:21 <luca_barbato> <approved with those changes>
14:16:54 <luca_barbato> topic: Zoom Links
14:18:29 <luca_barbato> ege: I added the links to the calendar event to the wiki, the actual date should be ignored
14:18:56 <sebastian> present+: Kazeem_Oladipupo
14:18:56 <luca_barbato> topic: Discussions
14:19:31 <luca_barbato> ege: We invited parties to discuss more on what are the expectations in TD.next
14:19:57 <luca_barbato> ege: Today Luca will present some pain points with the current specification
14:20:33 <sebastian> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:20:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html sebastian
14:20:41 <luca_barbato> ege: The presentation can be small and we will schedule in the next weeks (not the next since we have the detailed charter planning)
14:20:59 <luca_barbato> topic: Detailed Charter Planning
14:21:25 <luca_barbato> ege: I do not have more information, Sebastian do you have more information?
14:23:24 <luca_barbato> seb: The plan is to have the meeting next week <checking the agenda>
14:23:51 <Ege> https://w3c.github.io/wot-charter-drafts/wot-wg-2023-details.html
14:24:13 <luca_barbato> ege: This is the document we will discuss about
14:24:33 <luca_barbato> ege: I expect to have around 3 hours for the discussion
14:25:03 <luca_barbato> ege: If people are able to prepare a presentation on the parts of this document would be great
14:25:03 <sebastian> Regrets: Kaz
14:25:23 <cris_> q+
14:25:31 <sebastian> q+
14:25:50 <sebastian> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:25:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html sebastian
14:27:01 <luca_barbato> lb: I have some concerns on some items and we could find time to work on something together with you (Ege)
14:27:54 <luca_barbato> ege: <Adds presentation items on the wiki>
14:28:09 <luca_barbato> cris: This presentation has to be done to the next week or the next weeks?
14:28:49 <luca_barbato> ege: Next week want to refine the charter document, but the next weeks we want to have more presentations
14:29:35 <luca_barbato> cris: I have some feedback with the experience with Discovery
14:30:36 <luca_barbato> cris: We can refine the list after Luca's presentation
14:31:00 <luca_barbato> seb: Two topics here
14:31:24 <luca_barbato> ... One about what we should discuss the early beginning of the Charter
14:31:53 <luca_barbato> ... how shall we manage the content of the TD document
14:32:44 <luca_barbato> ... the document is generated parsing also the ontology and the whole process in complex
14:33:04 <luca_barbato> q+
14:33:26 <luca_barbato> ... we might find a simpler process
14:33:40 <luca_barbato> cris: It is definitely a good topic to discuss
14:33:41 <luca_barbato> q-
14:33:49 <cris_> ack c
14:34:29 <luca_barbato> ege: We note the people who are interested on the topic, at least one kickstarts the discussion
14:35:14 <luca_barbato> seb: The second topic is about how about to optimise the workforce we have
14:35:35 <luca_barbato> ... I suggest to not have so many many meetings in the week
14:35:54 <luca_barbato> ... and concentrate on the TD topics first
14:36:18 <mjk> q?
14:36:41 <luca_barbato> ... so the API and Discovery TF can work on the TD output as soon as it is done
14:37:00 <luca_barbato> ... we could make a timeline
14:37:10 <sebastian> ack s
14:37:23 <luca_barbato> ... so we see when the other task forces can start working
14:38:34 <luca_barbato> ege: <Updates the document and recaps>
14:39:12 <luca_barbato> ege: We could talk also about which protocol bindings to prioritise
14:42:08 <luca_barbato> cris: Manageable Actions is also a topic of interest
14:42:14 <sebastian> q+
14:42:17 <luca_barbato> lb: +1
14:42:50 <luca_barbato> seb: Next week we should not go into technical details
14:43:13 <luca_barbato> ... the discussion should be more on the problem and not the possible solutions
14:43:45 <Ege> ack s
14:45:16 <luca_barbato> ege: I will prepare a shared document so it can be a joint presentation
14:45:52 <Ege> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/31
14:45:59 <luca_barbato> topic: Project Management
14:46:28 <luca_barbato> ege: We prepared a github project with all the deferred to 2.0 issues
14:46:38 <sebastian> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:46:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html sebastian
14:47:25 <luca_barbato> ege: We should make sure everybody can access it
14:47:43 <sebastian> q+
14:48:48 <luca_barbato> ege: <shows the github project interfaces>
14:49:08 <luca_barbato> ege: We can use it to manage the increasing complexity of the specifications
14:49:49 <luca_barbato> seb: I like the project approach, we should make sure to filter the issues for planned features and not issue/questions
14:49:50 <luca_barbato> q+
14:50:04 <sebastian> ack s
14:51:17 <luca_barbato> lb: The project system in github is just a set of views, as long we label the issues correctly it will work fine
14:51:59 <Ege> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf/2023_WoT_TPAC_Agenda
14:53:30 <luca_barbato> topic: TPAC Agenda
14:53:51 <luca_barbato> ege: The information seems already correct
14:54:19 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/554
14:55:11 <luca_barbato> topic: Thing Description 1.1 Proposed REC
14:55:24 <luca_barbato> ege: It is still wip
14:55:48 <luca_barbato> seb: There is a section TBD
14:56:37 <luca_barbato> ege: We discussed the PR in the Main call with a resolution, I'll contact Michael about it
14:57:22 <luca_barbato> subtopic: Issues by rec transition
14:57:29 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22by+REC+publication%22+
14:58:33 <luca_barbato> ege: the issues are minor changes and we can address them off-meeting
14:58:53 <luca_barbato> topic: Presentation by Luca
14:59:02 <Ege> scribenick: sebastian
15:00:06 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS
15:00:06 <sebastian> lb: <showing slides; will be shared later>
15:00:30 <sebastian> lb: Presentation topic: TD Pain Points
15:00:54 <sebastian> ... the current TD spec is not uniformity
15:01:32 <sebastian> ... it is unclear how to mange other specification
15:02:15 <sebastian> ... we have also problems with the subspecifications such as profil and bindings
15:03:30 <sebastian> lb: about the uniformity, the TD spec. has different meaning "of one" or "array"
15:06:14 <Ege> scribenick: Ege
15:06:46 <Ege> lb: affordances are not uniform
15:07:29 <Ege> ... input is in property and action, output in event, action, property
15:08:22 <Ege> ... event has 3 data schemas, property just inherits but no term
15:09:26 <sebastian> ok, Im back
15:09:34 <Ege> ... action input and output are somewhat similar but events have different, namely data and dataResponse
15:09:35 <Ege> q+
15:09:38 <Ege> ack l
15:09:46 <Ege> scribenick: sebastian
15:10:42 <sebastian> ek: the observation is correct. the input and output is the opposite
15:10:57 <cris_> q+
15:12:41 <sebastian> ca: I can also confirm this problem. It would be nice if you link also the related issues
15:12:41 <sebastian> ... this topic I like to start first in the new TD
15:13:57 <Ege> ack e
15:13:57 <Ege> ack c
15:14:08 <sebastian> lb: I just prepared the presentation to start the discussion
15:14:56 <sebastian> ... but not everything have to be addressed. Maybe it can be read differently
15:15:03 <mjk> q?
15:16:18 <sebastian> lb: Property implies that the change is immediate and syncronous, even if it is never the case
15:16:53 <sebastian> lb: Action cannot be subscibed
15:17:09 <Ege> q+
15:17:18 <sebastian> ... a work around can be to define a Property that match a Action
15:17:20 <sebastian> q+
15:17:31 <cris_> q+
15:18:23 <sebastian> ack E
15:18:52 <sebastian> ek: do you mean the approach more coneptional?
15:22:37 <sebastian> lb: its more about the status of the action
15:22:59 <sebastian> sk: we will work on this topic in the next charter
15:23:05 <sebastian> ack s
15:23:08 <sebastian> ack c
15:23:33 <sebastian> ca: agree with Sebastian. Topic has a history.
15:23:58 <sebastian> ... I would not define a seperate property
15:24:56 <sebastian> ... in JS properties defined with a promise and we cannot wait them
15:26:20 <Ege> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:26:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html Ege
15:26:59 <sebastian> lb: if you use a property,  this is not immediate and is not synchronous
15:29:31 <Ege> q+
15:35:12 <sebastian> ek: ok, I understand the issue now better
15:35:50 <sebastian> lb: uriVariables clas badly with input
15:36:00 <sebastian> s/clas/clash
15:36:41 <sebastian> ... in forms, response and additionalRespinse fields that clash with dataResponse/data and output
15:37:00 <sebastian> s/additionalRespinse/additionalResponse
15:37:48 <sebastian> ... form does not have a way which parts of the Affordacne DataSchema should be map to its protocol
15:38:10 <Ege> q+
15:38:17 <sebastian> ... uriVariables seem to be additive over the Affordance DataSchema
15:38:52 <sebastian> ek: I agree, what. is needed. is. a bindng mechanism
15:39:21 <sebastian> s/./
15:39:49 <sebastian> s/bindng/binding
15:39:54 <cris_> q+
15:40:00 <sebastian> ack E
15:41:50 <sebastian> ca: I'm also agree with this points.
15:42:30 <mjk> q+
15:43:24 <Ege> ack c
15:43:48 <Ege> ack m
15:44:02 <sebastian> MK: +1 what Chris said
15:44:44 <sebastian> ... where have different places which can show up, such as in header, url etc
15:44:45 <mjk> ack mjk
15:44:56 <sebastian> s/where/we
15:45:42 <sebastian> lb: TD is mainly relied on JSON-LD
15:46:30 <sebastian> ... but the spec says that TD can be processed without a JSON-LD processor
15:47:15 <sebastian> ... we like to serialize TD in not-json (e.g CBOR)
15:47:53 <sebastian> ... we should be clear how we can ensure interoperability
15:48:13 <sebastian> q+
15:53:32 <sebastian> sk: there is a history about the JSON serialization requirement and JSON-LD serialization requirement
15:53:59 <sebastian> ... it is a compromise as specified in the spec
15:55:27 <sebastian> ack s
15:56:35 <sebastian> lb: we do not have a concept about the concept of degraded bahavior regading consumption of something. chould be topic for next charter
15:57:36 <sebastian> lb: dataSchema is related to the json-schema, but it is unclear if it is a subset or a superset
15:57:49 <Ege> q+
15:57:49 <cris_> q+
15:58:24 <sebastian> ek: we should be very clear about this what you mentioned. First we need to fix the version first.
15:59:34 <sebastian> ca: agree with Ege. we need a better explaination
16:00:19 <sebastian> ek: thanks luca for the presentation. Very helpful
16:00:44 <Ege> q?
16:00:46 <Ege> ack e
16:00:48 <Ege> ack c
16:00:49 <sebastian> ... other businesses?
16:00:49 <cris_> ack c
16:01:22 <sebastian> lb: this was just part 1 there will be another parts
16:01:52 <sebastian> q+
16:04:29 <Ege> ack s
16:04:32 <sebastian> ack s
16:04:45 <sebastian> adjourn
16:05:29 <Ege> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/14-wot-td-minutes.html Ege