13:45:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ixml
13:45:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-irc
13:46:03 <Steven> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:46:35 <Steven> Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference
13:46:35 <Steven> Date: 13 June 2023
13:46:35 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:47:35 <Steven> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/05/09-ixml-minutes
13:48:03 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0004
13:48:19 <Steven> Rrsagent, make minutes
13:48:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:01:25 <cmsmcq> cmsmcq has joined #ixml
14:02:31 <Steven> Topic: Previous Actions
14:02:49 <Steven> ACTION 2023-01-10-b: Michael to take another pass on the EBNF to BNF
14:02:49 <Steven>                      document
14:02:56 <norm> norm has joined #ixml
14:03:00 <BTovey> BTovey has joined #ixml
14:03:01 <Steven> Michael: Continues
14:03:11 <Steven> ACTION 2023-01-10-d: Michael to work out the metadata for identifying
14:03:11 <Steven>                      the Unicode version(s) associated with a test.
14:03:11 <Steven>                      Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0002.html
14:03:14 <john> john has joined #ixml
14:03:34 <Steven> Michael: Let's discuss later
14:03:42 <Steven> ACTION 2023-01-10-f: Norm and Michael to do a bit of revision to
14:03:42 <Steven>                      improve the draft documentation of the XML
14:03:42 <Steven>                      vocabulary (see #137) for further discussion.
14:03:58 <Steven> Norm: Continues
14:04:06 <Steven> ACTION 2023-01-10-h: Michael to review RELAX NG rules and report back.
14:04:06 <Steven>                      Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0003.html
14:04:43 <Steven> ACTION 2023-02-07-a: Steven to make Pull Request for Unicode test
14:04:48 <Steven> [Done]
14:05:11 <Steven> Steven: There is a test to try and comment on
14:06:07 <Steven> Steven: I copy the input to output, not strictly needed
14:06:15 <Steven> Norm: I think it's a good thing
14:06:27 <Steven> ACTION 2023-02-07-b: Michael to think about adding to the test suite
14:06:28 <Steven>                      schema to cover browser (etc) version
14:06:28 <Steven>                      Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0002.html
14:06:49 <Steven> ACTION 2023-04-11-a: Norm to investigate production of
14:06:49 <Steven>                      rules-conformant version of spec, for publication
14:06:49 <Steven>                      as CG Report
14:06:56 <Steven> Norm: Continues
14:07:05 <Steven> ACTION 2023-04-11-b: Michael to explore the use of named environments
14:07:05 <Steven>                      in the test suite
14:07:05 <Steven>                      Done: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0002.html
14:07:25 <Steven> Michael: We shouldn;t do it now, we can discuss shortly
14:07:43 <Steven> ACTION 2023-04-11-c: John to write up his work on grammar import.
14:07:50 <Steven> John: Half done
14:07:58 <Steven> ... in Markdown
14:08:32 <Steven> ... I may send the draft to us individually tomorrow
14:08:42 <Steven> ACTION 2023-05-09-a: Norm to revise the erratum to include stripping
14:08:42 <Steven>                      the BOM from UTF-8 input strings (as a should).
14:08:42 <Steven>                      Done:  pull request 178.
14:08:52 <Steven> ACTION 2023-05-09-b: Norm to make a pass attempting to describe
14:08:52 <Steven>                      serialization.
14:08:52 <Steven>                      Done:  pull request 179.
14:09:03 <Steven> Norm: Reformatted today with changes from Michael
14:09:13 <Steven> ... All to check
14:09:22 <Steven> ACTION 2023-05-09-c: Steven to produce new sample grammars for issue
14:09:22 <Steven>                      #139 for discussion in June.
14:09:30 <Steven> Steven: Posted today
14:10:18 <norm> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2023Jun/0009.html
14:10:29 <Steven> ... run it on the examples and see what you think of the output.
14:10:54 <Steven> ACTION 2023-05-09-d: Steven to produce a discussion document for
14:10:54 <Steven>                      renaming (issue #13).
14:11:00 <Steven> Steven: Continues
14:11:09 <Steven> Topic:  Status reports
14:11:24 <Steven> John: I updated based on comments from Steven
14:11:35 <Steven> .. there were spaces missing in the output
14:12:06 <Steven> ... it's implementation dependent whether whitespace is preserved
14:12:24 <Steven> s/;/'/
14:13:38 <Steven> Steven: Did you track down the problem where out implementations differ?
14:14:01 <Steven> John: Not yet
14:14:17 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to upload ambiguous test to test suite
14:14:58 <Steven> Norm: I tidied some stuff
14:15:06 <Steven> Steven: Small changes, nothing special
14:15:26 <Steven> Topic:  publication plans
14:15:37 <Steven> Norm: Continues
14:18:57 <Steven> Steven: I gave tutorials and talks at web cionference and MarkupUK. Went well
14:19:06 <Steven> Topic:  Review and resolution of bug reports and technical issues
14:20:13 <Steven> Subtopic:  Issues #174 and #175 BOMs
14:20:22 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:20:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:22:57 <Steven> RESOLUTION: accepted
14:23:17 <Steven> Norm: I will republish the errata
14:24:08 <Steven> Subtopic:  Issue #176 Encoding CR, NEL, LINE SEPARATOR etc.
14:27:07 <Steven> Bethan: I disagree with the use of "not constrained" in this paragraph.
14:28:50 <Steven> [Discussion]
14:29:01 <Steven> Bethan: OK, I'm OK with it
14:29:36 <Steven> John: I have an example where spaces are removed from the serialization. Is that allowed?
14:30:16 <Steven> ... under indentation conditions, whitespace is elided.
14:30:42 <Steven> Norm: This is about indentation. It's covered in the XML Serialisation spec.
14:31:45 <Steven> Michael: It's ok to have an option for indented output
14:32:13 <Steven> ... I think that as long as there is an option NOT to indent, it's OK
14:33:01 <Steven> Steven: Do we normatively reference the serialisation spec?
14:33:25 <Steven> John: It's only when we serialise that the whitespace rules kick in
14:33:54 <Steven> ... we have an XML tree, what we do then
14:34:35 <Steven> Norm: Our spec says it is manditatory to serialise
14:35:16 <Steven> Michael: It troubles me how we use serialistion as term.
14:35:31 <Steven> ... making a tree is parsing not serialisation
14:35:44 <Steven> ... I don;t think we should police APIs
14:35:48 <Steven> s/;/'/
14:36:36 <Steven> Michael: When you pass a tree to a consumer, you are out of the purview of the spec
14:37:06 <Steven> ... we don;t specify how DOM trees are handed over
14:37:36 <Steven> Bethan: The spec does say that processors SHOULD be able to serialise as characters, but, also, ....
14:37:53 <Steven> ... is that 'also' instead or in addition?
14:39:24 <Steven> ... Michael: An ixml processor muts be able to procude a sequence of characters
14:39:32 <Steven> s/muts/must/
14:39:44 <Steven> s/procude/produce/
14:39:55 <Steven> s/...//
14:40:52 <Steven> Steven: We haven't answered John's question yet
14:41:14 <Steven> Norm: Serialisation is constrained that it has to provide the right XML
14:41:42 <Steven> Michael: For "the XML" read "the selected parse tree".
14:41:56 <Steven> Bethan: That resolves my position
14:42:35 <Steven> Michael for the minutes we have two questions: John's question, and Steven's about whether we reference the serialisation spec.
14:42:49 <Steven> ... I would like to avoid referencing the serialisation spec.
14:43:22 <Steven> Norm: I don;t want to impose the constraint that we are building an XDM instance
14:43:26 <Steven> s/;/'
14:43:59 <Steven> Michael: It would make sense to say that processors could use options defined in the serialisation sepc.
14:44:08 <Steven> s/sepc/spec/
14:44:25 <Steven> ... It would allow John to offer indentation
14:45:20 <Steven> Norm: I'd be prepared to stop short of requiring those options be able to be turned off
14:46:04 <Steven> Michael: There may be choices in serialisation that the Serialisation spec allows that we don;t want to allow as options
14:46:26 <Steven> ... indentation=off is a requirement for the testsuite
14:47:07 <Steven> John: I do my test checks not at the text level, but compare XML trees
14:47:47 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to add spaces test to suite
14:49:00 <Steven> Norm: how about a nonormative ref to Serialisation, and a note about not adding new whitespace as a SHOULD
14:50:35 <Steven> ACTION: Norm to assemble a proposal on Serialisation
14:52:43 <Steven> [We read Norm's new paragraph, and grunt in agreement]
14:53:32 <Steven> Topic: AOB
14:53:45 <Steven> Norm: We need to speed up. For instance every two weeks.
14:53:52 <Steven> [Agreement]
14:54:36 <Steven> Michael: Second and fourth weeks?
14:54:41 <Steven> Norm: No every 14 days
14:54:49 <Steven> s/No/No,/
14:56:21 <Steven> Next meeting: 27th of June; after that maybe 11th July, play it by ear
14:57:03 <Steven> rrsaget, make minutes
14:57:17 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:58:03 <Steven> Present: Bethan, John, Michael, Norm, Steven
14:58:03 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven
14:59:33 <Steven> s/cionference/conference
15:00:21 <Steven> s/don;t/don't/G
15:01:17 <Steven> s/Michael for the minutes/Michael: for the minutes
15:01:59 <Steven> s/nonormative/nonnormative
15:02:35 <Steven> s/No,rm/Norm/
15:02:49 <Steven> s/No every/No, every
15:03:02 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-ixml-minutes.html Steven