17:57:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:57:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-irc
17:57:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:57:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King
17:57:44 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:57:54 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Matt King
17:58:01 <Matt_King> present+
17:58:16 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting
17:58:45 <Matt_King> View agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-13%2C-2023-Agenda
17:58:54 <Matt_King> Next meeting date is June 20
17:59:04 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:00:00 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
18:00:12 <Jem> zakim, start the meeting
18:00:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:00:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Jem
18:00:20 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:01:09 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria-apg
18:01:40 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:03:04 <Jem> present+
18:03:22 <arigilmore> present+
18:03:46 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:05:57 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
18:06:14 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-13%2C-2023-Agenda
18:06:23 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:08:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Coming Site Updates
18:08:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was hoping we would publish this week, but I'm not sure about the status of that
18:09:56 <sirib> sirib has joined #Aria-apg
18:10:18 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Alex_Flenniken is still trying to prepare a branch for publication this week
18:10:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This list of six items are the things that should be included; they have all been merged to the "main" branch
18:11:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Pull request reviews
18:11:45 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Skipto menu on all pages: Update skipto.js script to version 5.1.6 by jongund · Pull Request #2680 · w3c/aria-practices
18:11:52 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2680
18:12:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I tested this with screen readers to make sure there have been no regressions, but I'm looking for help to verify that there have been no visual regressions
18:13:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the deadline for review will probably be at least two weeks
18:13:15 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: I can take a look
18:13:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks! I'll assign you
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18:14:06 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Checkbox Example (Mixed-State): Toggle on keyup to prevent continuous toggling by sivakusayan · Pull Request #2722 · w3c/aria-practices
18:14:19 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2722
18:14:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've already merged a similar pull request for the two-state checkbox
18:14:56 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
18:14:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:15:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We need volunteers for code review and functional testing
18:15:35 <sirib> can we discuss about  https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1233,  https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1947 if you have time
18:17:04 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can perform the reviews
18:17:36 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Listbox Examples: Update scrolling of listbox item with focus into view when page is magnified by jongund · Pull Request #2622 · w3c/aria-practices
18:18:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Jon isn't here today, so since jugglinmike has provided feedback for Jon on the pull request, we can skip discussing this today
18:18:21 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 2723: Select-only Combobox Example: Fix scroll event listener bug by ariellalgilmore
18:18:55 <andrea_cardona> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2723
18:18:55 <arigilmore> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2723
18:19:16 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: The preview is failing
18:19:27 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
18:19:39 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I have a theory about what's going wrong; I will take a look
18:20:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does this only need to be tested on desktop devices, or should it be tested for mobile, as well?
18:21:07 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: I don't think it should have an effect on mobile, but I'm not confident about that
18:21:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It shouldn't change anything for the mobile experience, but I'm concerned about regressions in mobile
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18:22:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll have to reach out more for reviewers
18:22:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll add a review checklist, and we can work on finding volunteers over the course of the week and during next week's meeting
18:23:18 <jugglinmike> subtopic: PR 2724: Example Pages: Change Javascript to JavaScript in h2 elements by mcking65
18:23:28 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2724
18:23:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is my pull request. It is super-simple
18:23:52 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can take a look at that one
18:23:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thanks!
18:24:11 <jugglinmike> andrea_cardona: And it looks like we have one approval on that already
18:26:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: New Issue Action Planning
18:26:59 <jugglinmike> subtopic:  Add information on joining the group and group communication to "About" page
18:27:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I agree with this one; I think I'll take it on, myself
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18:28:04 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Select-Only Combobox Example Tabbing as selection
18:28:41 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2703
18:28:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We discussed this last week, but we only had a few people in attendence
18:29:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Also, the reporter has not responded to the notes from our discussion
18:29:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll review it for the folks present today to see if anyone here has a different perspective
18:30:03 <jugglinmike> [Matt_King recaps the issue]
18:30:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Essentially, does anyone see a problem with the way the APG's selection box currently behaves?
18:31:15 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I would be annoyed if it didn't behave the way it does today
18:34:28 <jamesn> https://microsoftedge.github.io/Demos/selectmenu/
18:34:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm going to let the person who raised this have an opportunity to respond before closing this as "won't fix." I'll give it some labels so that it doesn't come up in future triage meetings.
18:35:27 <jugglinmike> subtopic: How do I know if a menuitem can be activated or only opens a submenu
18:35:31 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2720
18:37:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They're asking whether or not a practice should just be forbidden. I don't know if there's a way to forbid anything in ARIA-Practices. I think we'd have to do that with a "MUST NOT" in ARIA
18:38:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is that a direction we should go in?
18:38:41 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I don't think so. I think authors should avoid doing it, but if you want to add this feature to your application, it's probably learn-able. I don't like it, but it's learn-able
18:39:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So the guidance we have here is adequate. There's nothing we can do here in ARIA-Practices to help screen readers out
18:40:31 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I think it should not be forbidden by ARIA.
18:41:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know if there's a way, editorially, for ARIA-Practices to strengthen our guidance against it. Then again, we don't explain why we recommend against it...
18:41:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if we should add another sentence that says why not to do it. We could just add, "because this behavior is not discoverable by assistive technology users."
18:41:57 <jugglinmike> Jem: That sounds like a good idea to me
18:42:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll put an "editorial" label on it, then
18:42:43 <jugglinmike> Jem: This reminds me of other cases that we've seen before
18:44:23 <jugglinmike> subtopic: tooltips closing with Escape is an irregular UX practice
18:44:36 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2538
18:45:07 <jugglinmike> jamesn: WCAG requires this--there's always a risk that the tooltip will obscure content, so you always need a way to dismiss it
18:45:52 <jugglinmike> jamesn: If this is irregular behavior that WCAG is requiring, then the issue should be raised with WCAG
18:49:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't take WCAG's recommendation as unquestionable. I'm willing to push back on WCAG, and we have done that in the past. In this case, though, I agree with WCAG
18:50:18 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Do non-interactive elements ever properly gain focus?
18:50:27 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2698
18:51:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We leave it up to the author here. I may be too close to the content to see what's unclear about this
18:53:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Increasingly at Meta, designers are removing disabled and unfocusable items from the page--they're asking, "why are these present on the page at all"
18:53:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a part of WCAG that has always bugged me. Why do some people get to benefit from knowing that something is disabled when other people can't perceive it at all?
18:54:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When I'm filling out a form and I reach a disabled "submit" button, that's very helpful. When I can't even find a "submit" button, that is very annoying indeed.
18:55:35 <jugglinmike> jamesn: We see this most often when designers want to put tooltips on disabled items to explain why they're disabled.
18:55:51 <jugglinmike> jamesn: We have to explain that you can't put tooltips on those things because screen reader users can't perceive them
18:58:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This person is asking for more clear guidance. I don't think the APG can give more clear guidance, but I'm interested in feedback from other folks on the Task Force
18:58:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If anyone thinks that we can make it better, then that would be useful
18:59:06 <jugglinmike> Jem: I like JAWS-test's response
19:00:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If anyone wants to take up the banner of getting browsers to support focusing on disabled elements, then I'd be all for that!
19:01:15 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:01:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, Jem, arigilmore, Daniel, howard-e
19:01:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:01:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:01:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:01:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:13:49 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has left #aria-apg