IRC log of aria-apg on 2023-06-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-irc

17:57:29 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

17:57:30 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Matt_King

17:57:44 [Matt_King]

MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force

17:57:54 [Matt_King]

CHAIR: Matt King

17:58:01 [Matt_King]

present+

17:58:16 [Matt_King]

TOPIC: Review agenda and next meeting

17:58:45 [Matt_King]

View agenda at https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-13%2C-2023-Agenda

17:58:54 [Matt_King]

Next meeting date is June 20

17:59:04 [Matt_King]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:59:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King

18:00:00 [Jem]

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18:00:12 [Jem]

zakim, start the meeting

18:00:12 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

18:00:13 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Jem

18:00:20 [Jem]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:00:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem

18:01:09 [arigilmore]

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18:01:40 [jugglinmike]

present+ jugglinmike

18:03:04 [Jem]

present+

18:03:22 [arigilmore]

present+

18:03:46 [dmontalvo]

present+ Daniel

18:05:57 [jugglinmike]

scribe+ jugglinmike

18:06:14 [Jem]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-13%2C-2023-Agenda

18:06:23 [dmontalvo]

present+ Daniel

18:08:17 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Status of Coming Site Updates

18:08:40 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I was hoping we would publish this week, but I'm not sure about the status of that

18:09:56 [sirib]

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18:10:18 [jugglinmike]

jugglinmike: Alex_Flenniken is still trying to prepare a branch for publication this week

18:10:51 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This list of six items are the things that should be included; they have all been merged to the "main" branch

18:11:16 [jugglinmike]

Topic: Pull request reviews

18:11:45 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Skipto menu on all pages: Update skipto.js script to version 5.1.6 by jongund · Pull Request #2680 · w3c/aria-practices

18:11:52 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2680

18:12:22 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I tested this with screen readers to make sure there have been no regressions, but I'm looking for help to verify that there have been no visual regressions

18:13:07 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: the deadline for review will probably be at least two weeks

18:13:15 [jugglinmike]

arigilmore: I can take a look

18:13:22 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Thanks! I'll assign you

18:13:30 [andrea_cardona]

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18:14:06 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Checkbox Example (Mixed-State): Toggle on keyup to prevent continuous toggling by sivakusayan · Pull Request #2722 · w3c/aria-practices

18:14:19 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2722

18:14:32 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We've already merged a similar pull request for the two-state checkbox

18:14:56 [Jem]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:14:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem

18:15:27 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We need volunteers for code review and functional testing

18:15:35 [sirib]

can we discuss about https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1233, https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1947 if you have time

18:17:04 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I can perform the reviews

18:17:36 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Listbox Examples: Update scrolling of listbox item with focus into view when page is magnified by jongund · Pull Request #2622 · w3c/aria-practices

18:18:08 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Jon isn't here today, so since jugglinmike has provided feedback for Jon on the pull request, we can skip discussing this today

18:18:21 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: PR 2723: Select-only Combobox Example: Fix scroll event listener bug by ariellalgilmore

18:18:55 [andrea_cardona]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2723

18:18:55 [arigilmore]

https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2723

18:19:16 [jugglinmike]

arigilmore: The preview is failing

18:19:27 [jugglinmike]

present+ howard-e

18:19:39 [jugglinmike]

howard-e: I have a theory about what's going wrong; I will take a look

18:20:48 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Does this only need to be tested on desktop devices, or should it be tested for mobile, as well?

18:21:07 [jugglinmike]

arigilmore: I don't think it should have an effect on mobile, but I'm not confident about that

18:21:32 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: It shouldn't change anything for the mobile experience, but I'm concerned about regressions in mobile

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18:22:21 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We'll have to reach out more for reviewers

18:22:45 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'll add a review checklist, and we can work on finding volunteers over the course of the week and during next week's meeting

18:23:18 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: PR 2724: Example Pages: Change Javascript to JavaScript in h2 elements by mcking65

18:23:28 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2724

18:23:37 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This is my pull request. It is super-simple

18:23:52 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I can take a look at that one

18:23:58 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Thanks!

18:24:11 [jugglinmike]

andrea_cardona: And it looks like we have one approval on that already

18:26:01 [jugglinmike]

Topic: New Issue Action Planning

18:26:59 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Add information on joining the group and group communication to "About" page

18:27:09 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I agree with this one; I think I'll take it on, myself

18:28:00 [shawn]

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18:28:04 [jugglinmike]

Subtopic: Select-Only Combobox Example Tabbing as selection

18:28:41 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2703

18:28:47 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We discussed this last week, but we only had a few people in attendence

18:29:14 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Also, the reporter has not responded to the notes from our discussion

18:29:48 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'll review it for the folks present today to see if anyone here has a different perspective

18:30:03 [jugglinmike]

[Matt_King recaps the issue]

18:30:59 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Essentially, does anyone see a problem with the way the APG's selection box currently behaves?

18:31:15 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: I would be annoyed if it didn't behave the way it does today

18:34:28 [jamesn]

https://microsoftedge.github.io/Demos/selectmenu/

18:34:31 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'm going to let the person who raised this have an opportunity to respond before closing this as "won't fix." I'll give it some labels so that it doesn't come up in future triage meetings.

18:35:27 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: How do I know if a menuitem can be activated or only opens a submenu

18:35:31 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2720

18:37:49 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: They're asking whether or not a practice should just be forbidden. I don't know if there's a way to forbid anything in ARIA-Practices. I think we'd have to do that with a "MUST NOT" in ARIA

18:38:06 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Is that a direction we should go in?

18:38:41 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: I don't think so. I think authors should avoid doing it, but if you want to add this feature to your application, it's probably learn-able. I don't like it, but it's learn-able

18:39:50 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: So the guidance we have here is adequate. There's nothing we can do here in ARIA-Practices to help screen readers out

18:40:31 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: I think it should not be forbidden by ARIA.

18:41:01 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I don't know if there's a way, editorially, for ARIA-Practices to strengthen our guidance against it. Then again, we don't explain why we recommend against it...

18:41:52 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I wonder if we should add another sentence that says why not to do it. We could just add, "because this behavior is not discoverable by assistive technology users."

18:41:57 [jugglinmike]

Jem: That sounds like a good idea to me

18:42:23 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I'll put an "editorial" label on it, then

18:42:43 [jugglinmike]

Jem: This reminds me of other cases that we've seen before

18:44:23 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: tooltips closing with Escape is an irregular UX practice

18:44:36 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2538

18:45:07 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: WCAG requires this--there's always a risk that the tooltip will obscure content, so you always need a way to dismiss it

18:45:52 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: If this is irregular behavior that WCAG is requiring, then the issue should be raised with WCAG

18:49:21 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: I don't take WCAG's recommendation as unquestionable. I'm willing to push back on WCAG, and we have done that in the past. In this case, though, I agree with WCAG

18:50:18 [jugglinmike]

subtopic: Do non-interactive elements ever properly gain focus?

18:50:27 [jugglinmike]

github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2698

18:51:46 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: We leave it up to the author here. I may be too close to the content to see what's unclear about this

18:53:03 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: Increasingly at Meta, designers are removing disabled and unfocusable items from the page--they're asking, "why are these present on the page at all"

18:53:33 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This is a part of WCAG that has always bugged me. Why do some people get to benefit from knowing that something is disabled when other people can't perceive it at all?

18:54:08 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: When I'm filling out a form and I reach a disabled "submit" button, that's very helpful. When I can't even find a "submit" button, that is very annoying indeed.

18:55:35 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: We see this most often when designers want to put tooltips on disabled items to explain why they're disabled.

18:55:51 [jugglinmike]

jamesn: We have to explain that you can't put tooltips on those things because screen reader users can't perceive them

18:58:41 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: This person is asking for more clear guidance. I don't think the APG can give more clear guidance, but I'm interested in feedback from other folks on the Task Force

18:58:53 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: If anyone thinks that we can make it better, then that would be useful

18:59:06 [jugglinmike]

Jem: I like JAWS-test's response

19:00:46 [jugglinmike]

Matt_King: If anyone wants to take up the banner of getting browsers to support focusing on disabled elements, then I'd be all for that!

19:01:15 [jugglinmike]

Zakim, end the meeting

19:01:15 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, jugglinmike, Jem, arigilmore, Daniel, howard-e

19:01:18 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

19:01:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/13-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim

19:01:26 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

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