15:55:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag3-policy
15:55:45 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/12-wcag3-policy-irc
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15:56:17 <shadi> Meeting: Guidance for Policy Makers Subgroup
15:56:21 <shadi> Chair: Shadi
16:00:08 <Jason_K> Jason_K has joined #wcag3-policy
16:01:54 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag3-policy
16:02:38 <garcialo> garcialo has joined #wcag3-policy
16:03:13 <garcialo> Zoom is telling me that the Host has another meeting in progress
16:03:29 <shadi> hmmm
16:03:38 <mgifford> mgifford has joined #wcag3-policy
16:03:41 <garcialo> I suspect it's because we're reusing the Silver Zoom meeting?
16:04:01 <mgifford> It always takes me so much longer to find where I should be with W3C things.
16:05:06 <mgifford> What is the zoom link?
16:05:28 <bruce_bailey> scribe:bruce_bailey
16:05:36 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce_bailey
16:06:36 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #wcag3-policy
16:06:54 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  w3c systems inclusive but there are some costs with that, today's slow start is an example
16:07:10 <Azlan> present+
16:07:18 <shadi> present+
16:07:21 <mgifford> It is always easier to just send a link like https://mit.zoom.us/j/99928768277?pwd=V3JhNlUvU090K1pFbHBoZEVUTnAxZz09
16:07:22 <bruce_bailey> present+
16:07:27 <bruce_bailey> zakim, agenda
16:07:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', bruce_bailey
16:07:27 <garcialo> present+
16:07:29 <Jason_K> Jason_K has joined #wcag3-policy
16:07:41 <Jason_K> present+
16:07:52 <mgifford> Right..  Sorry..
16:07:56 <bruce_bailey> s/like https://mit.zoom.us/j/99928768277?pwd=V3JhNlUvU090K1pFbHBoZEVUTnAxZz09/
16:08:01 <shadi> s/ It is always easier to just send a link like https://mit.zoom.us/j/99928768277?pwd=V3JhNlUvU090K1pFbHBoZEVUTnAxZz09/
16:08:21 <mgifford> present+
16:08:43 <bruce_bailey> shadi: reminder to be careful with irc chat, for off minutes slash m e then chat
16:09:00 <bruce_bailey> ... slash me comments do not get into minutes
16:09:09 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:09:11 <Cyborg> Cyborg has joined #wcag3-policy
16:09:19 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B-qfTrPxnhIa0AxhPEF6SIDTLAGnneoauBRHGzS5q7U/edit#heading=h.s0ukjtq0hqao
16:09:19 <Cyborg> Present+
16:09:55 <bruce_bailey> shadi: we have 7 people, so that is plenty for quorum...
16:10:29 <bruce_bailey> ... action item last week was to add comments to Google doc, as we did not have meeting, thx to mike and jason...
16:10:58 <bruce_bailey> ... first two case well commented at this point, but would like to add more to scratch pad
16:11:22 <bruce_bailey> ... from next week on we might consolodate and figure how to put into useful documentation
16:11:30 <Cyborg> q+
16:11:39 <shadi> ack bruce
16:11:39 <bruce_bailey> q-
16:12:14 <bruce_bailey> bruce:  Next monday is U.S. holiday, then we hit july 4 th week...
16:12:25 <Laura_carlson> Laura_carlson has joined #wcag3-policy
16:12:37 <Jaunita_George> Jaunita_George has joined #wcag3-policy
16:12:53 <Jaunita_George> Present+
16:12:56 <bruce_bailey> ... but we only have the eight weeks, so we will proceed with what  have.  Chairs have not extended deadline.  Please contribute off line as much as you can.
16:13:10 <shadi> ack cyborg
16:13:54 <bruce_bailey> Cybele:  I would recommend asking AG chairs for more time.
16:14:05 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B-qfTrPxnhIa0AxhPEF6SIDTLAGnneoauBRHGzS5q7U/edit#heading=h.s0ukjtq0hqao
16:14:07 <Laura_carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
16:14:13 <bruce_bailey> ... also is scratch pad document our main work product for now?
16:14:43 <bruce_bailey> shadi:   Yes, Google doc is main doc for now.  Please see notes at top of document for background....
16:15:23 <Cyborg> q+
16:15:23 <bruce_bailey> ... Each of the use cases are linked from document, and with each of the use cases we are trying to tease out implications for standard and policy.
16:15:26 <Cyborg> q still outstanding
16:15:57 <bruce_bailey> ... The notes on May 3rd are good example.  So reviewing one document and putting our comments into a second document.
16:16:31 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Starting next week, I would to start with a draft of what that guidence document might look like...
16:17:11 <bruce_bailey> ... But I will be reporting back our progress to AGWG and I can ask for more time given all the interuptions, but no guarantee of that at all...
16:17:44 <bruce_bailey> ... on Tuesday 6/20 is mid point of our cycle, so my presentation to AG will be longer....
16:18:11 <bruce_bailey> ... Chair are really asking for all the subgroups to work on 8 week sprints....
16:18:28 <bruce_bailey> ...decision will be from AGWG if we extend or conclude.
16:19:10 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  Thanks for clarification, but I want to stress that we not limit ourselves just because they are already published....
16:19:58 <bruce_bailey> ... i understand direction to comment on Use Case document in the google doc scratch pad.  It still seems like a constrained to work...
16:20:35 <bruce_bailey> ... We have had maybe 3 holidays so that is almost half of our allotted time, so that seems very limiting.
16:21:19 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Okay, I bring this into my reporting to AG.   So I will ask for AG to grant more time prior to final report...
16:22:01 <bruce_bailey> ... I will also raise issue of having a second sub group for some of the concerns which are out of scope for the task asked from AGWG for now.
16:22:31 <Cyborg> how do we bring all those comments together, including ones sent by email?
16:22:36 <bruce_bailey> ... Please see some thought from Bruce and Laura and others at bottom of doc.  I left those in, but they may be out of scope...
16:22:37 <Cyborg> such as Gregg's comments...
16:23:06 <bruce_bailey> ... There are some GitHub issues (for WCAG3) which might be of interest to this group...
16:23:14 <Jaunita_George> +1
16:23:30 <bruce_bailey> ... if you notices those, please link to GitHub issues in our working scratch doc.
16:24:14 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  Yes, please raise the holiday issued.   But previous document written and feedback raised -- but those are not in this work assignment...
16:24:56 <bruce_bailey> ... so I worried about the process.  I don't agree with framing of the issue, and would liked those worked in.
16:25:46 <Cyborg> just want to be mindful that the critique of the last work on this is included in this work, and not to frame this discussion as coming from the last one in a way that excludes those concerns
16:25:46 <bruce_bailey> Shadi:  Other comments?   I have brought in Greggs V comments...
16:26:08 <Cyborg> q+
16:26:18 <bruce_bailey> ... I am not clear where the previous issues / recommendations are that you refrerence.
16:26:39 <bruce_bailey> ... Please help me understand, but I do not want to spend much more time today.
16:27:04 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  I would ask for clearer intent in our scratch pad document...
16:27:23 <bruce_bailey> ... Clear intention portion at top would be very helpful.
16:27:35 <shadi> ack cyborg
16:27:44 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  I will try to do my best, and address concern.
16:28:23 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Back to agenda, thank you Jason, Laura, and Mike for contributions last week..
16:28:41 <bruce_bailey> ... please do work even if we do not have meeting...
16:29:00 <bruce_bailey> I would like to start with situation 7 for today in scratch pad.
16:29:02 <shadi> https://w3c.github.io/silver/use-cases/#situation-7
16:29:49 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  No comments so far.  There are technology which keep evolving and changing and AT frequently does not keep up...
16:30:06 <bruce_bailey> ... What does it mean to provide text alterntive to VR and AR and XR?
16:30:28 <Cyborg> just added a comment early in the scratch pad to reflect my thoughts on intent
16:31:13 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  This was discussed by accessible archetecture group.
16:31:48 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:32:26 <bruce_bailey> q-
16:33:02 <bruce_bailey> Bruce asks for some clarificant which changed from this Use Cases document and the previous conformance document in TR space.
16:33:37 <bruce_bailey> shadi: That doc highlighted for me that problems highlighted in that doc were not suited to WCAG....
16:34:06 <bruce_bailey> ... the Use Case approach is to think beyond WCAG and what can be done elsewhere.
16:34:46 <bruce_bailey> Mike:  I added a couple points and Jason did another.  Are those the kind of feedback you are looking for?
16:35:13 <bruce_bailey> mgifford:  Okay, good.  These need word smithing but I was hoping I was on point.
16:35:28 <bruce_bailey> [Mike reads comment from google doc.]
16:36:04 <bruce_bailey> mgifford: If gov't are going to contribute to adoption, they need to contribute resources.
16:36:19 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Why not ony govt and not industry?
16:37:06 <bruce_bailey> mgifford:  It comes to available resources.  Govt has money and legal persuation, so neither of those migh be true for individuals.
16:37:07 <Cyborg> q+
16:37:11 <Laura_carlson> +1
16:37:39 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  My plus-one in doc was to govt involement in XR...
16:38:02 <shadi> q?
16:38:03 <bruce_bailey> ... technology even at its best can be problematic.
16:38:09 <bruce_bailey> q-
16:38:25 <bruce_bailey> [Jason reads his comment in doc]
16:38:55 <bruce_bailey> Jason_K:  There can be alternatives but that is not equal access necessisarily....
16:39:25 <bruce_bailey> ... for example we had a nursing student who had an adapted stethescope...
16:39:47 <Cyborg> +1 to Jason's comment, it actually matches well with what I added to Mike's addition (re alternatives)
16:39:56 <bruce_bailey> ... but it did not work well on dummy use for training.  There were arguements that book made up for it.
16:40:13 <bruce_bailey> ... We did not think that correct, and came up with a workable alternative.
16:40:13 <Cyborg> q+
16:40:45 <shadi> ack cyborg
16:41:02 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Any thougths on when fundamental alternative or execption is used?
16:41:22 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  I think it just that the content does not conform.  That can be enough.
16:41:26 <Laura_carlson> +1 to Cyborg.
16:41:43 <bruce_bailey> ... I have some concern to WCAG3 ability to address accesibility at the start...
16:42:07 <bruce_bailey> ... Much accessibility is done after the fact.  So can 3 help fix that?
16:42:31 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  WCAG2x has concept of Conforming Alternative -- could we do better?
16:43:06 <bruce_bailey> shadi: The other point about Early and Often -- is that something WCAG can prescribe -- or is that a process question?
16:43:19 <bruce_bailey> shadi: Here we are thinking more broadly.
16:43:45 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Also please add initial to your comments in doc to facility followup.
16:43:51 <Cyborg> q+
16:44:26 <bruce_bailey> mgifford:  Missing is personal preference, for example with reality, a person might be using a wheelchair....
16:44:40 <Cyborg> want to point out 8.2 in this document - which appears to be new? https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-ableism-and-discrimination-based-disability/8-duty-accommodate?fbclid=IwAR2wC9_UVnUbBr0062St_T29kDZ0t0kPdCU2ulUJ9iSWzWC-0pjD15hR8iU
16:44:56 <bruce_bailey> ... so is that WC option included in VR experience.  This is very different than just a web page.
16:45:03 <Cyborg> will add it to the proactive piece....
16:45:42 <bruce_bailey> mgifford:  To focus, it is the importance of authoring.  The user experience is getting melded, so our doc can note that.
16:45:54 <shadi> ack cyborg
16:46:38 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  I just added to early and often, but I believe Ontairo civil rights act has included some universal design,
16:47:06 <bruce_bailey> ... recommend that people take a look.  Is that a good model for where this doc is going?
16:47:18 <bruce_bailey> s/?fbclid=IwAR2wC9_UVnUbBr0062St_T29kDZ0t0kPdCU2ulUJ9iSWzWC-0pjD15hR8iU/
16:48:01 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Situation 8, outdated content which is obsolete or hardly used.  Are those different?
16:48:19 <bruce_bailey> ... Do we want to have things removed?  Are there other approaches?
16:49:05 <bruce_bailey> mgifford:  This when moving content to archive.  Too expensive to remediate.  Goverment approach can be just to take down because of administravie burden.
16:49:27 <bruce_bailey> ... civilian needs to depend on Archive.org or something.
16:50:02 <bruce_bailey> Laura_carlson:  Why have old content online?  List titles, but not inaccessilbe content.
16:50:09 <Cyborg> oh wow - so interesting Laura.  if we take it all off and make people request it, then they need to make what they put on accessible
16:50:12 <Cyborg> +1 to Laura
16:50:14 <Cyborg> great idea
16:50:26 <bruce_bailey> Louis:  So just the index?  I like it.
16:50:28 <mgifford> +1 to Laura
16:51:10 <Cyborg> this is so good on so many levels, better for storage energy too, effort distribution etc.
16:51:22 <bruce_bailey> garcialo:  Having request bumps the notice that people are interested.  Rather than dump, have a way to prioritize.
16:51:46 <Cyborg> q+
16:51:53 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  I have heard the opposite from disabilty groups, removing it for everyone might not be the best approach.
16:52:38 <bruce_bailey> mgower:  ideally would be available and accessible, but if the alternative is not to have it at all, that seems bad choice.
16:53:09 <bruce_bailey> ... if posted, violates WCAG.  But just having a list seems like a compromise,
16:53:17 <bruce_bailey> ... but one which can be exploited.
16:53:43 <bruce_bailey> Cyborg:  I love the idea of everything not accessible being taking down but well indexed....
16:54:08 <bruce_bailey> ...Once requested, old doc gets remediated before posting.
16:54:35 <bruce_bailey> ... As for exploit that wastes time, but is alternative not to try it?  Seems like risk can be mitigated.
16:54:53 <bruce_bailey> rssagent, make minutes
16:55:19 <bruce_bailey> Shadi:  Mindful of the time, but lets take quick look at situation 9
16:55:45 <bruce_bailey> ... Mike has a comment, but others?
16:56:13 <bruce_bailey> garcialo:  We want experimental non-conforming content posted so we can start working on a11y....
16:56:29 <bruce_bailey> ... seems like situation 7 to me.  We need to find resources to fix.
16:56:58 <bruce_bailey> mgifford: The elements that related to getting information for accessilbilty, need the feedback...
16:57:22 <bruce_bailey> ... so the feedback mechanism needs to be conforming or at least as ccessible as possible
16:57:48 <shadi> q?
16:57:57 <Cyborg> q-
16:58:21 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/12-wcag3-policy-minutes.html bruce_bailey
16:58:47 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Wrapping up, we only have short calls...
16:59:06 <bruce_bailey> ...Next Monday we will be prepping for presentation the next day.
16:59:21 <bruce_bailey> Please add time into scratchpad document this week.
16:59:38 <bruce_bailey> ...we will be using that to consolidate ideas...
17:00:01 <bruce_bailey> ... i am seeing some patterns.  For example that organization need to establish processs...
17:00:32 <bruce_bailey> ... theme repeated a few places.  Also see GreggV comments which echo that.
17:00:57 <bruce_bailey> shadi:  Please continue review.  We will be meeting 6/19 for the people who are available.
17:01:22 <bruce_bailey> Also, please attend AG meeting Tuesday.
17:02:24 <bruce_bailey> Tuesday 9/20 that is
17:03:29 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:03:38 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/12-wcag3-policy-minutes.html shadi
17:03:48 <shadi> zakim, bye
17:03:48 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Azlan, shadi, bruce_bailey, garcialo, Jason_K, mgifford, Cyborg, Jaunita_George, Laura_Carlson
17:03:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag3-policy
17:03:52 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:03:57 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/12-wcag3-policy-minutes.html shadi
17:04:20 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
17:04:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items