16:02:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:02:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-irc
16:02:49 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:02:50 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
16:02:54 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:02:55 <pchampin> agenda: https://beta.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230608T120000/#agenda
16:02:55 <pfps> present+
16:02:57 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:02:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Champin, Pierre-Antoine (alternate: Gschwend, Adrian)
16:02:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Update on W3C TPAC 2023
16:02:57 <gkellogg_> present+
16:02:58 <agendabot> agenda+ Update on "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD)
16:02:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Update on Use Case Proposals
16:03:00 <pchampin> present+
16:03:00 <ora> present+
16:03:02 <agendabot> agenda+ Update on Semantic TF
16:03:02 <AndyS> present+
16:03:03 <Tpt> present+
16:03:03 <ora> chair+
16:03:04 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:03:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at  -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:03:10 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:03:11 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:14 <olaf> present+
16:03:18 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:20 <gtw> present+
16:03:31 <pchampin> scribe+
16:03:47 <gkellogg_> zakim, make logs public
16:03:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public', gkellogg_
16:03:58 <gkellogg_> rrsagent, pointer
16:03:58 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-irc#T16-03-58
16:04:07 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:04:07 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Champin, Pierre-Antoine (alternate: Gschwend, Adrian) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:16 <pchampin> <pchampin> I can scribe
16:04:18 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:04:18 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, pchampin
16:04:24 <pchampin> zakim, close item 1
16:04:24 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Champin, Pierre-Antoine (alternate: Gschwend, Adrian), closed
16:04:26 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:04:26 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:04:29 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:04:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:51 <pfps> minutes are acceptable - there are a couple of things that could be cleaned up but I don't think they are worth it
16:05:04 <AndyS> LGTM
16:05:05 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:05:09 <AZ> present+
16:05:19 <ora> proposal: accept last week's minutes
16:05:23 <ora> +1
16:05:23 <gkellogg_> +1
16:05:25 <pchampin> <pchampin> +1
16:05:26 <pfps> +1
16:05:27 <olaf> +1
16:05:28 <AndyS> +1
16:05:45 <Tpt> +1
16:05:50 <TallTed> present+
16:05:52 <TallTed> +1
16:05:58 <ora> resolved: accept last week's minutes
16:06:01 <AZ> +0 (I did not have time to look at them)
16:06:03 <Timothe> present+
16:06:14 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:06:14 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Update on W3C TPAC 2023 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:18 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:06:23 <enrico> present+
16:06:44 <pchampin> ora: the tentative TPAC agenda is out; not sure everyone got it or only the chairs
16:06:53 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:06:59 <doerthe> present+
16:07:06 <pchampin> ... They are offering us Tuesday (whole day) for our F2F meeting
16:07:20 <pchampin> ... doe that work for everyone?
16:07:35 <olaf> q+
16:07:45 <pchampin> ... Wednesday is the plenary; in my email I asked for Tuesday or Thursday
16:07:46 <AZ> s/doe/does/
16:07:54 <pchampin> q+
16:07:55 <pfps> I expect to call in if remote participation is possible, but I will not be travelling there.
16:07:58 <ora> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tj66Ase5tc--S-Vjo9Q1pXEINaTmOEzDpnS1J5gtqOI/edit#gid=2063528840
16:08:47 <ora> ack olaf
16:09:00 <pchampin> olaf: I'm not familiar with the plenary; what is it?
16:09:30 <pchampin> ora: there are no group meeting on Wednesday, because of the plenary. There are presentations for all the attendees.
16:09:49 <pchampin> gkellogg_: the plenary is followed by breakout sessions (unconference style)
16:10:29 <pchampin> ora: anybody here wanting to attend but who can't make it on Tuesday?
16:10:41 <pchampin> [crickets]
16:11:01 <ora> ack pchampin
16:11:29 <pchampin> pchampin: TPAC is hybrid, so remote participation will be possible
16:12:43 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:12:47 <Dominik_T> present+
16:12:48 <pchampin> ... There will be a conflict with the DID WG (Tuesday morning) so I will share my time (staff contact of both groups)
16:13:00 <pchampin> ... I detected no other conflicts with other RDF-related groups
16:13:04 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:13:04 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Update on "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:21 <AndyS> scribe+
16:13:36 <gkellogg_> q+
16:13:46 <AndyS> pchampin: Last two docs published
16:13:52 <gkellogg_> https://github.com/tobie/specref/issues/748
16:13:55 <gkellogg_> q-
16:14:29 <pfps> q+
16:14:33 <AndyS> ... issue about specref - has not caught up with the publications so our PR have errors. Gregg has done the updates but not gone through the pipeline.
16:14:34 <ora> ack pfps
16:14:40 <AndyS> ... fixed shortly
16:15:20 <AndyS> pfps: All RDF docs refer to RDF+SPARQL but SPARQL docs ref to SPARQL
16:15:22 <AndyS> q+
16:15:39 <gkellogg_> q+
16:15:43 <ora> ack AndyS
16:16:01 <pchampin> AndyS: that's just a document thing, not a process error
16:16:24 <pchampin> ... I thought that including 11 references was big enough
16:16:27 <TallTed> +1 all 22 docs should cross-link to all 22 docs, whether or not the section collapses
16:16:46 <ora> ack gkellogg_
16:16:47 <pchampin> ... If the section collides, why not include all 22 of them; if its does not, I would prefer to keep it short
16:16:59 <TallTed> s/collides/collapses/
16:17:22 <pchampin> pfps: some sections collapse; can we make this one collapse?
16:17:24 <AndyS> scribe-
16:17:36 <pchampin> gkellogg_: yes, it is possible using the 'details' HTML element
16:18:09 <pchampin> ... these lists are managed by files on the 'common' directory
16:18:26 <pchampin> ... I have to check if we can put the 'details' tag in these files
16:18:49 <pchampin> pfps: I'm willing to work with someone to improve this
16:19:10 <pchampin> gkellogg_: we can make an experiment on one of the specs
16:19:24 <pfps> q+
16:19:26 <pchampin> ... note that PR preview will not show it (included file) but githack can deal with it
16:19:32 <ora> ack pfps
16:19:52 <pchampin> pfps: let's use sparql-entailment for this test
16:20:09 <pchampin> pfps: also, all these links point to the github document rather than TR/; is that what we want?
16:20:24 <pchampin> gkellogg_: it uses the data-cite mechanism, so it should fix itself at some point
16:21:07 <pfps> then all this looks fine by me
16:21:18 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:21:18 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Update on Use Case Proposals -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:21:24 <pfps> q+
16:21:31 <ora> ack pfps
16:21:49 <pchampin> pfps: we talked about UCs last week; not too much new
16:21:58 <ora> q+
16:22:07 <ora> ack ora
16:22:08 <pchampin> ... I think it's time to send an email to various groups to request people to submit UCs
16:22:36 <pchampin> ... unless this group thinks it's a bad idea, I plan to send an email to the public WG ML and to the semanticweb ML
16:22:38 <pchampin> ora: I think it is a good idea
16:22:44 <TallTed> q+
16:23:07 <pchampin> pfps: we have not decided how to publish the UCs yes (Note?) so it is unclear how we refer to it
16:23:19 <ora> ack TallTed
16:23:56 <pchampin> TallTed: I was pointing out that the READMEs in the repo do not mention this doc
16:24:07 <TallTed> `action: @pfps to xyz`
16:24:08 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/pfps -> @pfps
16:24:12 <pfps> action on me: prs to all repos to add link to ucr repository
16:24:13 <ghurlbot> Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe on me is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?
16:24:20 <pchampin> pfps: I can make a PR on all repos to add that link to the READMEs
16:24:26 <pfps> action pfps: prs to all repos to add link to ucr repository
16:24:33 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #64 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/64
16:24:33 <TallTed> s/`action: @pfps to xyz`//
16:24:39 <pchampin> gkellogg_: also, the common files should be updated as well
16:24:47 <TallTed> s|https://github.com/pfps -> @pfps||
16:25:00 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:25:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:25:15 <pchampin> pfps: some UCs have significant info on them
16:25:29 <pchampin> ... the UCR document now points to the CG UCR document, where some of them are
16:25:34 <pfps> Please consider taking up a use case from the community group.  To do so add an entry to
16:25:34 <pfps> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/Status-of--use-cases-submitted-to-community-group.  Then contact the submitter, get them to create a use case issue in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr, and collaborate with them to create a full use case that can help determine how quoted triples will work.
16:25:34 <pfps> 
16:25:36 <pfps> 
16:25:55 <pchampin> q?
16:25:57 <TallTed> s/action on me: prs to all repos to add link to ucr repository//
16:25:59 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:25:59 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Update on Semantic TF -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:26:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:26:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:26:39 <pchampin> enrico: I missed the last meeting, the one before that was cancelled
16:27:16 <pchampin> ... we have identified 3  different behaviours
16:27:34 <pchampin> ... the plan is to unify them based on different proposals made by Peter, Antoine, and myself
16:27:35 <TallTed> s|Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe on me is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?||
16:27:39 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:27:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:27:48 <pchampin> ... how they will be syntactically represented is a different story
16:27:59 <pchampin> ora: I hope we also get use-cases to support this
16:28:21 <pchampin> q?
16:28:29 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:28:29 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:28:51 <AZ> q+
16:29:10 <ora> ack AZ
16:29:44 <pchampin> AZ: action #19 about conformance is assigned to ora, but we are working on it together
16:29:45 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/19 -> Action 19 work with antoine and others to come up with a proposal for weak and strong compliance (on Antoine-Zimmermann, rdfguy) due 16 Feb 2023
16:29:59 <pchampin> ... I sent an email to the ML about it; two ways to deal with conformance
16:30:33 <pchampin> one option is to define levels of conformance
16:30:58 <pchampin> s/one option/... one option/
16:31:04 <pchampin> ... another would be to define profiles: full and classic
16:31:27 <pchampin> ... where "classic" would be more or less RDF 1.1 (maybe + base direction)
16:31:37 <pchampin> ... both option would need some actions on the documents
16:32:00 <pchampin> ora: we came to the conclusion that we need a term to talk about "graphs that do not contain quoted triples"
16:32:05 <pfps> how about graphs formerly known as RDF
16:32:07 <pchampin> ... we are open to suggestions on that
16:32:10 <olaf> q+
16:32:14 <AndyS> q+
16:32:20 <gkellogg_> q+
16:32:34 <ora> ack olaf
16:32:52 <pchampin> olaf: I don't really understand the difference between the two options
16:32:58 <pchampin> ... what would that mean for systems?
16:33:10 <pchampin> ora: they are not either-or
16:33:44 <pchampin> AZ: if we define two profiles, we need to describe for each profile, what it means to conform
16:35:59 <pchampin> ... this is more about how we word the differences than about their effect on complying systems
16:35:59 <ora> q?
16:36:05 <ora> ack AndyS
16:36:38 <pchampin> AndyS: Can spell out these implications in the issue? They were not entirely clear to me.
16:37:17 <pchampin> ... We need to find a way to determine what "RDF 1.2" means, without having to ask each time "which one?"
16:37:47 <AndyS> ack me
16:38:03 <ora> ack gkellogg_
16:38:19 <pchampin> ... [discusses "close" profiles, which do not change entailment, vs. "open" profiles, who may change it]
16:39:14 <pchampin> gkellogg_: "classic" might give the wrong impression that this is nothing more than RDF 1.1, while it might contain more things (base direction)
16:39:32 <pchampin> ... the name should convey the idea that it is without quoted triples
16:39:49 <ora> q?
16:39:50 <pchampin> ... Another point: the RCH WG will probably not support quoted triples for canonicalization
16:39:54 <TallTed> I might suggest "RDF 1.2 Simple" (even if they're not necessarily simple to the human eye) vs "RDF 1.2 Complex"
16:40:18 <TallTed> q+
16:40:21 <pchampin> ... A way to roundtrip between "full" and "without quoted triples" would be useful
16:40:25 <ora> ack TallTed
16:40:55 <ora> q+
16:41:02 <pchampin> gkellogg_: "simple triple" is already used, and means something else
16:41:07 <pchampin> AndyS: and "simple entailment"
16:41:15 <pchampin> TallTed: how about "basic"?
16:41:17 <ora> q?
16:41:23 <ora> ack ora
16:41:27 <pchampin> AndyS: put it on the issue, to give visibility to this discussion
16:42:14 <pchampin> q?
16:43:20 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:43:20 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Review of pull requests, available at  -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:43:51 <gkellogg_> q+
16:43:58 <ora> ack gkellogg_
16:44:16 <pchampin> gkellogg_: w3c/rdf-turtle#27
16:44:17 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/27 -> Pull Request 27 Update Turtle grammar for quoted triples and annotations (gkellogg) spec:substantive
16:44:36 <pchampin> ... I think this one is ready to do, thanks to AndyS for helping
16:45:03 <pchampin> ... I plan to reflect it in Trig; propose to merge this one
16:45:25 <pchampin> ora: sounds to me like we can merge it
16:45:43 <pchampin> ... we don't have a PR for TriG, right?
16:46:03 <pchampin> gkellogg_: no, we were experimenting with styling and things
16:46:12 <pchampin> ... but the changes should be congruent
16:46:23 <pchampin> ora: where are we on the mobile phone thing?
16:47:27 <Tpt> q+
16:47:47 <pchampin> pchampin: I'm assigning myself this PR to reminid me of taking care of it (consult some a12y expert at W3C)
16:47:47 <ora> ack Tpt
16:48:25 <pchampin> Tpt: w3c/sparql-query#89
16:48:25 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/89 -> Pull Request 89 Upgrades references to XPath from 2.0 to 3.1 (Tpt) spec:substantive
16:48:50 <ktk> p+
16:49:51 <pchampin> ... also updates on references to XML Schema datatypes
16:50:09 <pchampin> ... among other changes is "year 0"
16:50:15 <pchampin> ora: what is the impact on systems?
16:51:00 <pchampin> AndyS: it changes how we refer to years before the common era (-1, -2, -3)
16:51:03 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:51:24 <TallTed> s/p+/present+/
16:51:41 <pchampin> ora: anything else? can we merge w3c/rdf-concepts#44?
16:51:41 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/44 -> Pull Request 44 Adds note about limitations of xsd:float and xsd:double (hartig) spec:editorial
16:51:49 <pchampin> olaf: yes, I will merge it after the call
16:51:56 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:52:31 <pchampin> topic: named graphs
16:52:41 <pchampin> AndyS: some issue was raised on rdf-concepts about named graphs
16:52:45 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46
16:53:00 <pchampin> ... maybe we could think of a group response?
16:53:19 <pfps> fine by me
16:53:22 <pchampin> ora: I would like us to have a discussion on this before we come up with a group response
16:54:05 <ora> q+
16:54:19 <pchampin> gkellogg_: Named graphs are commonly used for many different things
16:54:30 <ora> ack ora
16:54:35 <pchampin> ... they have to specified semantics, the world moved on
16:55:17 <pchampin> AndyS: the proposal is to use singleton named graphs to represent quoted triples
16:55:38 <pchampin> ora: there is good and bad in the absence of formal semantics for named graphs
16:55:55 <pchampin> ... good because that gave people flexibility in how to use them; bad because there is no uniformity
16:56:23 <pchampin> ... shall we add this discussion  to next week's agenda?
16:56:39 <pchampin> AndyS: as long as it does not prevent us from making progress on other things
16:57:12 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
16:57:19 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:57:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:57:57 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
17:08:16 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:19:45 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:27:54 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
17:47:12 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:04:35 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:10:46 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:26:51 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:30:27 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:46:23 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:51:58 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
18:53:57 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #rdf-star
18:55:39 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:00:49 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
19:18:59 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:23:54 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
19:25:10 <gkellog__> gkellog__ has joined #rdf-star
19:29:34 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:34:49 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
20:24:40 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
20:28:09 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
20:47:34 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
20:49:05 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
21:09:16 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
21:28:59 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
21:47:59 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:06:11 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:25:52 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:47:00 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:50:29 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
22:56:07 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star