IRC log of rdf-star on 2023-06-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:02:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:02:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-irc
16:02:49 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:02:50 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
16:02:54 [TallTed]
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16:02:55 [pchampin]
agenda: https://beta.w3.org/events/meetings/931e4e54-81ad-4aa3-a39f-84efe4b788c7/20230608T120000/#agenda
16:02:55 [pfps]
present+
16:02:57 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:02:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Scribe: Champin, Pierre-Antoine (alternate: Gschwend, Adrian)
16:02:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:02:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on W3C TPAC 2023
16:02:57 [gkellogg_]
present+
16:02:58 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD)
16:02:59 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on Use Case Proposals
16:03:00 [pchampin]
present+
16:03:00 [ora]
present+
16:03:02 [agendabot]
agenda+ Update on Semantic TF
16:03:02 [AndyS]
present+
16:03:03 [Tpt]
present+
16:03:03 [ora]
chair+
16:03:04 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:03:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
16:03:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:03:11 [pchampin]
previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:14 [olaf]
present+
16:03:18 [pchampin]
next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/06/15-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:03:20 [gtw]
present+
16:03:31 [pchampin]
scribe+
16:03:47 [gkellogg_]
zakim, make logs public
16:03:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make logs public', gkellogg_
16:03:58 [gkellogg_]
rrsagent, pointer
16:03:58 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-irc#T16-03-58
16:04:07 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:04:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Scribe: Champin, Pierre-Antoine (alternate: Gschwend, Adrian) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:16 [pchampin]
<pchampin> I can scribe
16:04:18 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:04:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, pchampin
16:04:24 [pchampin]
zakim, close item 1
16:04:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Scribe: Champin, Pierre-Antoine (alternate: Gschwend, Adrian), closed
16:04:26 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:04:26 [Zakim]
2. Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:04:29 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:04:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Approval of last week's minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:51 [pfps]
minutes are acceptable - there are a couple of things that could be cleaned up but I don't think they are worth it
16:05:04 [AndyS]
LGTM
16:05:05 [AZ]
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16:05:09 [AZ]
present+
16:05:19 [ora]
proposal: accept last week's minutes
16:05:23 [ora]
+1
16:05:23 [gkellogg_]
+1
16:05:25 [pchampin]
<pchampin> +1
16:05:26 [pfps]
+1
16:05:27 [olaf]
+1
16:05:28 [AndyS]
+1
16:05:45 [Tpt]
+1
16:05:50 [TallTed]
present+
16:05:52 [TallTed]
+1
16:05:58 [ora]
resolved: accept last week's minutes
16:06:01 [AZ]
+0 (I did not have time to look at them)
16:06:03 [Timothe]
present+
16:06:14 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:06:14 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Update on W3C TPAC 2023 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:18 [enrico]
enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:06:23 [enrico]
present+
16:06:44 [pchampin]
ora: the tentative TPAC agenda is out; not sure everyone got it or only the chairs
16:06:53 [doerthe]
doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:06:59 [doerthe]
present+
16:07:06 [pchampin]
... They are offering us Tuesday (whole day) for our F2F meeting
16:07:20 [pchampin]
... doe that work for everyone?
16:07:35 [olaf]
q+
16:07:45 [pchampin]
... Wednesday is the plenary; in my email I asked for Tuesday or Thursday
16:07:46 [AZ]
s/doe/does/
16:07:54 [pchampin]
q+
16:07:55 [pfps]
I expect to call in if remote participation is possible, but I will not be travelling there.
16:07:58 [ora]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tj66Ase5tc--S-Vjo9Q1pXEINaTmOEzDpnS1J5gtqOI/edit#gid=2063528840
16:08:47 [ora]
ack olaf
16:09:00 [pchampin]
olaf: I'm not familiar with the plenary; what is it?
16:09:30 [pchampin]
ora: there are no group meeting on Wednesday, because of the plenary. There are presentations for all the attendees.
16:09:49 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: the plenary is followed by breakout sessions (unconference style)
16:10:29 [pchampin]
ora: anybody here wanting to attend but who can't make it on Tuesday?
16:10:41 [pchampin]
[crickets]
16:11:01 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:11:29 [pchampin]
pchampin: TPAC is hybrid, so remote participation will be possible
16:12:43 [Dominik_T]
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16:12:47 [Dominik_T]
present+
16:12:48 [pchampin]
... There will be a conflict with the DID WG (Tuesday morning) so I will share my time (staff contact of both groups)
16:13:00 [pchampin]
... I detected no other conflicts with other RDF-related groups
16:13:04 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:13:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Update on "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:21 [AndyS]
scribe+
16:13:36 [gkellogg_]
q+
16:13:46 [AndyS]
pchampin: Last two docs published
16:13:52 [gkellogg_]
https://github.com/tobie/specref/issues/748
16:13:55 [gkellogg_]
q-
16:14:29 [pfps]
q+
16:14:33 [AndyS]
... issue about specref - has not caught up with the publications so our PR have errors. Gregg has done the updates but not gone through the pipeline.
16:14:34 [ora]
ack pfps
16:14:40 [AndyS]
... fixed shortly
16:15:20 [AndyS]
pfps: All RDF docs refer to RDF+SPARQL but SPARQL docs ref to SPARQL
16:15:22 [AndyS]
q+
16:15:39 [gkellogg_]
q+
16:15:43 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:16:01 [pchampin]
AndyS: that's just a document thing, not a process error
16:16:24 [pchampin]
... I thought that including 11 references was big enough
16:16:27 [TallTed]
+1 all 22 docs should cross-link to all 22 docs, whether or not the section collapses
16:16:46 [ora]
ack gkellogg_
16:16:47 [pchampin]
... If the section collides, why not include all 22 of them; if its does not, I would prefer to keep it short
16:16:59 [TallTed]
s/collides/collapses/
16:17:22 [pchampin]
pfps: some sections collapse; can we make this one collapse?
16:17:24 [AndyS]
scribe-
16:17:36 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: yes, it is possible using the 'details' HTML element
16:18:09 [pchampin]
... these lists are managed by files on the 'common' directory
16:18:26 [pchampin]
... I have to check if we can put the 'details' tag in these files
16:18:49 [pchampin]
pfps: I'm willing to work with someone to improve this
16:19:10 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: we can make an experiment on one of the specs
16:19:24 [pfps]
q+
16:19:26 [pchampin]
... note that PR preview will not show it (included file) but githack can deal with it
16:19:32 [ora]
ack pfps
16:19:52 [pchampin]
pfps: let's use sparql-entailment for this test
16:20:09 [pchampin]
pfps: also, all these links point to the github document rather than TR/; is that what we want?
16:20:24 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: it uses the data-cite mechanism, so it should fix itself at some point
16:21:07 [pfps]
then all this looks fine by me
16:21:18 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:21:18 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Update on Use Case Proposals -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:21:24 [pfps]
q+
16:21:31 [ora]
ack pfps
16:21:49 [pchampin]
pfps: we talked about UCs last week; not too much new
16:21:58 [ora]
q+
16:22:07 [ora]
ack ora
16:22:08 [pchampin]
... I think it's time to send an email to various groups to request people to submit UCs
16:22:36 [pchampin]
... unless this group thinks it's a bad idea, I plan to send an email to the public WG ML and to the semanticweb ML
16:22:38 [pchampin]
ora: I think it is a good idea
16:22:44 [TallTed]
q+
16:23:07 [pchampin]
pfps: we have not decided how to publish the UCs yes (Note?) so it is unclear how we refer to it
16:23:19 [ora]
ack TallTed
16:23:56 [pchampin]
TallTed: I was pointing out that the READMEs in the repo do not mention this doc
16:24:07 [TallTed]
`action: @pfps to xyz`
16:24:08 [ghurlbot]
https://github.com/pfps -> @pfps
16:24:12 [pfps]
action on me: prs to all repos to add link to ucr repository
16:24:13 [ghurlbot]
Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe on me is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?
16:24:20 [pchampin]
pfps: I can make a PR on all repos to add that link to the READMEs
16:24:26 [pfps]
action pfps: prs to all repos to add link to ucr repository
16:24:33 [ghurlbot]
Created -> action #64 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/64
16:24:33 [TallTed]
s/`action: @pfps to xyz`//
16:24:39 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: also, the common files should be updated as well
16:24:47 [TallTed]
s|https://github.com/pfps -> @pfps||
16:25:00 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:25:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:25:15 [pchampin]
pfps: some UCs have significant info on them
16:25:29 [pchampin]
... the UCR document now points to the CG UCR document, where some of them are
16:25:34 [pfps]
Please consider taking up a use case from the community group. To do so add an entry to
16:25:34 [pfps]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/Status-of--use-cases-submitted-to-community-group. Then contact the submitter, get them to create a use case issue in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr, and collaborate with them to create a full use case that can help determine how quoted triples will work.
16:25:34 [pfps]
16:25:36 [pfps]
16:25:55 [pchampin]
q?
16:25:57 [TallTed]
s/action on me: prs to all repos to add link to ucr repository//
16:25:59 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:25:59 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Update on Semantic TF -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:26:04 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:26:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:26:39 [pchampin]
enrico: I missed the last meeting, the one before that was cancelled
16:27:16 [pchampin]
... we have identified 3 different behaviours
16:27:34 [pchampin]
... the plan is to unify them based on different proposals made by Peter, Antoine, and myself
16:27:35 [TallTed]
s|Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe on me is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?||
16:27:39 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:27:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:27:48 [pchampin]
... how they will be syntactically represented is a different story
16:27:59 [pchampin]
ora: I hope we also get use-cases to support this
16:28:21 [pchampin]
q?
16:28:29 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:28:29 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:28:51 [AZ]
q+
16:29:10 [ora]
ack AZ
16:29:44 [pchampin]
AZ: action #19 about conformance is assigned to ora, but we are working on it together
16:29:45 [ghurlbot]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/19 -> Action 19 work with antoine and others to come up with a proposal for weak and strong compliance (on Antoine-Zimmermann, rdfguy) due 16 Feb 2023
16:29:59 [pchampin]
... I sent an email to the ML about it; two ways to deal with conformance
16:30:33 [pchampin]
one option is to define levels of conformance
16:30:58 [pchampin]
s/one option/... one option/
16:31:04 [pchampin]
... another would be to define profiles: full and classic
16:31:27 [pchampin]
... where "classic" would be more or less RDF 1.1 (maybe + base direction)
16:31:37 [pchampin]
... both option would need some actions on the documents
16:32:00 [pchampin]
ora: we came to the conclusion that we need a term to talk about "graphs that do not contain quoted triples"
16:32:05 [pfps]
how about graphs formerly known as RDF
16:32:07 [pchampin]
... we are open to suggestions on that
16:32:10 [olaf]
q+
16:32:14 [AndyS]
q+
16:32:20 [gkellogg_]
q+
16:32:34 [ora]
ack olaf
16:32:52 [pchampin]
olaf: I don't really understand the difference between the two options
16:32:58 [pchampin]
... what would that mean for systems?
16:33:10 [pchampin]
ora: they are not either-or
16:33:44 [pchampin]
AZ: if we define two profiles, we need to describe for each profile, what it means to conform
16:35:59 [pchampin]
... this is more about how we word the differences than about their effect on complying systems
16:35:59 [ora]
q?
16:36:05 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:36:38 [pchampin]
AndyS: Can spell out these implications in the issue? They were not entirely clear to me.
16:37:17 [pchampin]
... We need to find a way to determine what "RDF 1.2" means, without having to ask each time "which one?"
16:37:47 [AndyS]
ack me
16:38:03 [ora]
ack gkellogg_
16:38:19 [pchampin]
... [discusses "close" profiles, which do not change entailment, vs. "open" profiles, who may change it]
16:39:14 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: "classic" might give the wrong impression that this is nothing more than RDF 1.1, while it might contain more things (base direction)
16:39:32 [pchampin]
... the name should convey the idea that it is without quoted triples
16:39:49 [ora]
q?
16:39:50 [pchampin]
... Another point: the RCH WG will probably not support quoted triples for canonicalization
16:39:54 [TallTed]
I might suggest "RDF 1.2 Simple" (even if they're not necessarily simple to the human eye) vs "RDF 1.2 Complex"
16:40:18 [TallTed]
q+
16:40:21 [pchampin]
... A way to roundtrip between "full" and "without quoted triples" would be useful
16:40:25 [ora]
ack TallTed
16:40:55 [ora]
q+
16:41:02 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: "simple triple" is already used, and means something else
16:41:07 [pchampin]
AndyS: and "simple entailment"
16:41:15 [pchampin]
TallTed: how about "basic"?
16:41:17 [ora]
q?
16:41:23 [ora]
ack ora
16:41:27 [pchampin]
AndyS: put it on the issue, to give visibility to this discussion
16:42:14 [pchampin]
q?
16:43:20 [pchampin]
zakim, next item
16:43:20 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:43:51 [gkellogg_]
q+
16:43:58 [ora]
ack gkellogg_
16:44:16 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: w3c/rdf-turtle#27
16:44:17 [ghurlbot]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/27 -> Pull Request 27 Update Turtle grammar for quoted triples and annotations (gkellogg) spec:substantive
16:44:36 [pchampin]
... I think this one is ready to do, thanks to AndyS for helping
16:45:03 [pchampin]
... I plan to reflect it in Trig; propose to merge this one
16:45:25 [pchampin]
ora: sounds to me like we can merge it
16:45:43 [pchampin]
... we don't have a PR for TriG, right?
16:46:03 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: no, we were experimenting with styling and things
16:46:12 [pchampin]
... but the changes should be congruent
16:46:23 [pchampin]
ora: where are we on the mobile phone thing?
16:47:27 [Tpt]
q+
16:47:47 [pchampin]
pchampin: I'm assigning myself this PR to reminid me of taking care of it (consult some a12y expert at W3C)
16:47:47 [ora]
ack Tpt
16:48:25 [pchampin]
Tpt: w3c/sparql-query#89
16:48:25 [ghurlbot]
https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/89 -> Pull Request 89 Upgrades references to XPath from 2.0 to 3.1 (Tpt) spec:substantive
16:48:50 [ktk]
p+
16:49:51 [pchampin]
... also updates on references to XML Schema datatypes
16:50:09 [pchampin]
... among other changes is "year 0"
16:50:15 [pchampin]
ora: what is the impact on systems?
16:51:00 [pchampin]
AndyS: it changes how we refer to years before the common era (-1, -2, -3)
16:51:03 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:51:24 [TallTed]
s/p+/present+/
16:51:41 [pchampin]
ora: anything else? can we merge w3c/rdf-concepts#44?
16:51:41 [ghurlbot]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/44 -> Pull Request 44 Adds note about limitations of xsd:float and xsd:double (hartig) spec:editorial
16:51:49 [pchampin]
olaf: yes, I will merge it after the call
16:51:56 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:51:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:52:31 [pchampin]
topic: named graphs
16:52:41 [pchampin]
AndyS: some issue was raised on rdf-concepts about named graphs
16:52:45 [AndyS]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46
16:53:00 [pchampin]
... maybe we could think of a group response?
16:53:19 [pfps]
fine by me
16:53:22 [pchampin]
ora: I would like us to have a discussion on this before we come up with a group response
16:54:05 [ora]
q+
16:54:19 [pchampin]
gkellogg_: Named graphs are commonly used for many different things
16:54:30 [ora]
ack ora
16:54:35 [pchampin]
... they have to specified semantics, the world moved on
16:55:17 [pchampin]
AndyS: the proposal is to use singleton named graphs to represent quoted triples
16:55:38 [pchampin]
ora: there is good and bad in the absence of formal semantics for named graphs
16:55:55 [pchampin]
... good because that gave people flexibility in how to use them; bad because there is no uniformity
16:56:23 [pchampin]
... shall we add this discussion to next week's agenda?
16:56:39 [pchampin]
AndyS: as long as it does not prevent us from making progress on other things
16:57:12 [olaf]
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RRSAgent, make minutes
16:57:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
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