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16:59:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-aria-irc
16:59:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:59:19 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
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16:59:24 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:59:24 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:25 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230608T130000
16:59:25 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:59:25 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage http://bit.ly/3MYWGCT
16:59:25 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/bit.ly/3Nfyy07
16:59:28 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:59:30 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Considerations for focusgroup https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947
16:59:33 <agendabot> agenda+  -> [Role Parity] What do we do about summary element? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/939
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17:02:17 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:02:27 <Adam_Page> present+
17:02:29 <scotto> present+
17:02:30 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:02:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage http://bit.ly/3MYWGCT -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:45 <arigilmore> present+
17:04:09 <jamesn> https://bit.ly/3qyTruk
17:04:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1950
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17:05:04 <Adam_Page> scotto: probably for ARIA 1.4
17:05:05 <benb> present+
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17:05:12 <Adam_Page> jamesn: agenda for next week?
17:05:16 <Adam_Page> scotto: sure
17:05:24 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1948
17:05:32 <Matt_King> present+
17:05:56 <Adam_Page> scotto: supposed to be taken care of by Anne’s PR
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17:06:34 <Adam_Page> juanita_george: I’ll review
17:06:43 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
17:06:54 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #194
17:07:29 <Adam_Page> BGaraventa: is this for background images?
17:08:13 <Adam_Page> scotto: this is because one can use CSS pseudo elements to concatenate alt text
17:09:06 <Adam_Page> ... but Chromium is allowing that to trump visible text
17:09:19 <jamesn> q+
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17:09:39 <Adam_Page> ... this allows some to visually render something and then override the accname with pseudo element content
17:09:46 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s agenda this
17:10:29 <Adam_Page> jcraig: CSS has had a supported capability to override alt for some time but this developed later
17:10:34 <myasonik> present+
17:10:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #178
17:11:17 <Adam_Page> ... anyone familiar with IA2 who can explain this one?
17:12:06 <Adam_Page> benb: I’ll take assignment of this one
17:12:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1947
17:12:24 <jcraig> present+
17:12:27 <Adam_Page> ... this one’s already on the agenda
17:12:29 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:12:29 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
17:12:34 <Adam_Page> ack jamesn
17:12:35 <jamesn> q-
17:12:37 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:12:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/bit.ly/3Nfyy07 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:56 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:12:57 <scotto> https://github.com/search?l=&q=is:open+is:pr+created:%3E%3D2023-06-01+repo:w3c/aria+repo:w3c/accname+repo:w3c/core-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aam+repo:w3c/dpub-aria+repo:w3c/html-aam&type=Issues
17:13:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1949
17:14:43 <Adam_Page> ... if anyone else wants to review, please do
17:14:53 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #179
17:15:20 <Adam_Page> ... would be good for spectranaut to review
17:16:18 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll also request aaronlev’s review
17:16:21 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:16:21 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:34 <Adam_Page> jamesn: anyone want a deep dive for the next few weeks?
17:16:46 <Adam_Page> scotto: maybe we should decide after the next two agenda items
17:16:50 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
17:16:50 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:16:51 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:51 <Zakim> 4. -> Considerations for focusgroup https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947 [from agendabot]
17:17:03 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:17:03 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Considerations for focusgroup https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:39 <Adam_Page> scotto: there’s currently no one driving this, but it’s not unimportant
17:17:46 <Adam_Page> benb: it’s on my team’s active backlog
17:18:57 <Adam_Page> scotto: in toying around with this, it became clear that — at least in the explainer — there’s no overt mention of how this would work from an accessibility perspective or usability implications
17:19:41 <Adam_Page> ... e.g., no visual indication of focus for the group or guidance for roving tab index
17:19:54 <Adam_Page> ... has implications for ARIA menus, listboxes, etc.
17:20:09 <jamesn> q+
17:20:11 <Adam_Page> ... nothing called out in the docs yet for a sighted keyboard experience
17:20:34 <Adam_Page> ... but when testing out the current implementation in Chromium, this seemed to work quite well for patterns that expected this behavior — menus, toolbars, etc.
17:20:55 <Adam_Page> ... but intermixing elements that would result in JAWS and NVDA switching modes was problematic
17:21:14 <Adam_Page> ... that’s why I wanted to raise this issue here in the WG
17:21:26 <Adam_Page> ... we should take a close look at the explainer and consider commentary
17:21:32 <Adam_Page> ... and arguably this is a good feature
17:21:41 <Adam_Page> ... allow people to quickly navigate large blocks of focusable elements
17:21:42 <Matt_King> q+
17:21:49 <Adam_Page> ... we already have roles in place where this behavior is already expected
17:22:16 <Adam_Page> ... what kind of mappings would we need to give to AT — like lists of links, etc., where arrow key navigation should work
17:22:23 <jamesn> ack me
17:22:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this seems really useful and that people are already doing in frameworks all the time
17:22:58 <Adam_Page> ... don’t see any issues in terms of exposing this to visual user
17:23:32 <Adam_Page> ... potentially confusing to use different keystrokes in different places, but it’s already highly custom in frameworks
17:23:44 <Adam_Page> ... I support this and want to give it a closer look
17:23:46 <sirib> q+
17:23:50 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:24:23 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I’ll echo that this feature is kind of a shortcut; lets you avoid custom JS when implementing APG patterns
17:24:52 <Adam_Page> ... devs already had a responsibility to implement it correctly to avoid authoring errors
17:25:07 <scotto> q+
17:25:13 <Adam_Page> ... but I would love to explore whether user agents could do something to visually indicate the focused grouping
17:25:21 <Adam_Page> ... that would be awesome
17:25:49 <Adam_Page> ... and if there are things we can do in the explainer or within the feature itself to avoid some of the mode-switching AT problems scotto described
17:25:51 <jamesn> ack sirib
17:25:57 <Matt_King> ack me
17:26:45 <Adam_Page> sirib: how will the user know what the keyboard behaviors will be?  I’m concerned for the end user
17:26:55 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:27:42 <Adam_Page> scotto: another potential feature I can see for focusgroup is — for better or worse — there are people who’ve requested that toolbars, listings of buttons, etc. expose enumeration to AT
17:28:14 <Matt_King> q+
17:28:53 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:29:05 <Adam_Page> ... something like this, purposefully including things that should be individual tab stops could cause user confusion
17:29:53 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: if you’re using toolbar, tab, list, all those things support posinset and setsize
17:30:12 <Adam_Page> ... but we wouldn’t want people applying focusgoup carelessly to divs, etc.
17:30:19 <Adam_Page> scotto: it will be a global atttribute, so they could do that
17:30:38 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: so if they did that, what role would we give the div, and/or should that be an authoring error?
17:30:49 <Adam_Page> ... would we respect focusgroup on a generic container?
17:31:25 <Adam_Page> scotto: I think next step, apart from a deep dive, is: anyone who’s not familiar with this proposal, please read through it and consider commentary
17:31:39 <Adam_Page> ... there is an implementation in Chrome Canary you can try out
17:31:45 <Adam_Page> ... now’s the time to influence the spec
17:31:49 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: +1 to deep dive
17:31:50 <jamesn> q+
17:32:18 <Adam_Page> ... and put together a small group to create some APG examples using Chrome Canary
17:32:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let‘s use #1947 to collect questions we have, comments on our experiments
17:32:55 <Adam_Page> ... and then we can schedule a deep dive for next week if enough participation happens
17:33:03 <Adam_Page> ... or by the following week
17:33:28 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I’m out next week, so I’d prefer the following week
17:33:51 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll pencil in a deep dive for the week after next
17:33:57 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1947
17:34:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: if no one’s put in anything by next week, then we’ll postpone the deep dive
17:34:51 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’m raising the issue, but I’m not the champion — everyone, please come prepared
17:34:53 <jamesn> q?
17:34:56 <jamesn> q-
17:34:57 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:34:57 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> [Role Parity] What do we do about summary element? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/939 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:36:20 <Adam_Page> scotto: accordions are being prototyped right now to use details/summary, and that exposes some gaps
17:36:31 <Adam_Page> ... and the spec allows arbitrary content in the summary
17:37:20 <Adam_Page> ... this has created some problems because nested interactive elements are allowed
17:38:21 <Adam_Page> ... we have disparate mappings for summary across platforms
17:38:37 <Matt_King> q+
17:38:46 <Adam_Page> ... but the mapping of the underlying element isn’t necessarily clear right now — it’s like a button, but not quite
17:40:24 <Adam_Page> ... we have the opportunity to either double down that this is a button or we come up with a new role that indicates the element itself is interactive but can also have interactive children
17:40:29 <jamesn> q+
17:41:14 <Adam_Page> scotto: data has shown that 50% of summary elements in the wild contain interactive children
17:41:47 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: VO, NVDA, and JAWS all show me button expanded/collapsed for that element
17:41:52 <Adam_Page> scotto: VO shouldn’t be doing that
17:42:27 <Adam_Page> ... Webkit and macOS VO (notably not iOS VO) in particular are actually demonstrating how this could work, and maybe *should* work
17:43:01 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:43:24 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: a side comment about accordions
17:44:08 <Adam_Page> ... the other problem we’ve encountered in the APG is handling summaries that need to be headings
17:44:42 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: I hope we don’t add another role here
17:45:05 <Adam_Page> ... if there’s some movement toward allowing buttons to be composite, that sounds super complicated — and we should have that conversation before this one
17:45:21 <jamesn> ack me
17:45:24 <Adam_Page> ... is there urgency to solving this particular summary problem?
17:45:58 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I want to step back.  This is a problem we all see all the time, another example is cards with nested interactives
17:46:23 <Adam_Page> ... and although there are solutions in code, no one seems to want to use those techniques
17:46:36 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: exactly, let’s solve that higher-level problem first
17:47:18 <Adam_Page> ... it could be the case that we change nothing at all for non-composite buttons and links, but we allow some differentiation for buttons and links that are detected to be composite
17:47:34 <Adam_Page> ... we don’t necessarily have to break legacy
17:47:46 <Adam_Page> scotto: I agree
17:47:52 <Adam_Page> ... we have another deep dive topic here
17:48:03 <Adam_Page> ... re: your question about urgency, this is something that is happening now
17:48:20 <Adam_Page> ... a PR has been made to allow for details/summary to be used for accordion implementations
17:48:44 <Adam_Page> ... if this gets pushed and implemented in browsers, then this pattern will proliferate
17:49:13 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: that reinforces to me that we need to address the underlying issue
17:49:34 <Adam_Page> ... could we have a separate session to understand this accordion issue specifically?
17:51:09 <Adam_Page> scotto: beyond just wonky AT behavior, the underlying mapping issues are significant
17:52:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: shall we schedule a deep dive?
17:52:54 <Adam_Page> scotto: I have a few different proposals in mind
17:53:14 <Adam_Page> ... but I want to hear other perspectives
17:53:27 <Adam_Page> ... I see two routes:
17:54:00 <Adam_Page> ... #1: because this element has a variety of different mappings and is being exposed in different ways, the non-button versions are working quite well — see Safari — there could be a role for this that works
17:54:25 <jamesn> agenda+ ARIA 1.2 is a w3c Recommendation https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ 🎉
17:54:50 <Adam_Page> ... #2: we do a larger re-evaluation of how buttons work in general and make that all consistent and figure out how to handle nested interactive elements, e.g., secondary actions, then platforms could change their mappings
17:54:58 <Adam_Page> ... it’ll be a big lift either way
17:55:20 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: for both routes, mapping changes will be necessary
17:55:22 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes
17:55:51 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s have a follow-up
17:56:00 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, let’s do it after July 4th
17:56:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we’ll schedule it next week
17:56:09 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:56:09 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- ARIA 1.2 is a w3c Recommendation https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ 🎉 -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:56:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: thank you to everyone who made this happen!
17:57:09 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: congratulations!
17:58:10 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we’ve learned some things about the process to make our next version move faster
17:58:23 <Adam_Page> scotto: did we resolve all 1.2 issues?
17:58:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: there are a few unresolved, but we can push out our first public working draft
17:59:14 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: the editor’s draft on GH pages right now: is that our first public working draft?
17:59:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: probably
17:59:50 <Adam_Page> ... I need to double-check some things there
18:00:13 <Adam_Page> ... we did have stable vs. main, but we’re kind of doing away with stable, which should make editor‘s draft the main
18:00:39 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:00:45 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:00:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, scotto, arigilmore, benb, Matt_King, bgaraventa, myasonik, jcraig, Daniel, Francis_Storr
18:00:46 <jamesn> present+
18:00:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/08-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:56 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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