14:00:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:01:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-irc
14:01:12 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:01:28 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan
14:02:29 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#June_7.2C_2023
14:04:35 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster
14:06:21 <McCool_> McCool_ has joined #wot-td
14:06:30 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool
14:08:08 <McCool_> topic: minutes
14:08:11 <McCool_> https://www.w3.org/2023/05/31-wot-td-minutes.html
14:08:25 <cris__> cris__ has joined #wot-td
14:08:48 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/05/31-wot-td-minutes.html|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/05/31-wot-td-minutes.html May-31|
14:08:51 <cris__> topic: minutes review
14:09:16 <cris__> ege: cristiano's name is misspelled
14:09:29 <cris__> ... discussed about timeslot changes
14:09:35 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:09:40 <cris__> ... and introduced the new moderation configuration
14:09:58 <kaz> i/misspe/scribenick: cris__/
14:10:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:10:20 <cris__> ... finally  we recorded the resolution to publish the protocol binding document
14:10:41 <kaz> q+
14:10:47 <cris__> ... we also discuss big architecture refactoring
14:10:51 <cris__> ... missing slides
14:11:06 <cris__> mk: I'll merge PR with the slides
14:11:41 <cris__> ege: ok, thanks
14:11:43 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1091 wot PR 1091 - Create 2023-31-05-tdnext.pdf
14:12:03 <cris__> ... we went back to the implementation report and reached the resolution to publish TD
14:12:36 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:12:51 <cris__> ... ok fixes has been made, minutes approved (slides link will be added later)
14:13:11 <cris__> kaz: fixed slides link
14:13:14 <cris__> ege: great
14:13:33 <cris__> topic: Timeslot length and preference
14:13:44 <cris__> ege: it will stay as it is for this charter
14:13:56 <kaz> i/Timeslot/(Minutes approved)/
14:14:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:14:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:14:09 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:14:25 <cris__> ... we would do a general check for people availability before changing.
14:14:25 <kaz> chair: Ege
14:14:48 <kaz> q+
14:14:49 <cris__> topic: moderation rules
14:14:59 <cris__> ege: I think we should document it somewhere
14:15:12 <kaz> ack k
14:15:24 <cris__> kaz: right, as a starting policy we can simply copy the basic policy you presented at the top of the wiki page.
14:15:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:15:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:16:16 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:16:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:16:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:16:25 <mjk> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-31-05-tdnext.pdf
14:16:53 <cris__> ege: anything to add?
14:16:57 <cris__> ... ok
14:17:14 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
14:17:36 <cris__> topic: Ongoing topics
14:17:59 <cris__> ege: do you want to add anything to the Thing Description topics to discuss during TPac?
14:18:23 <cris__> topic: Binding Templates publication check
14:18:29 <cris__> ege: do we need to do something?
14:18:35 <kaz> q+
14:19:14 <cris__> kaz: no action, please don't any addition
14:19:26 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/blob/main/publication/note3/Overview.html is cleaned up version
14:19:31 <cris__> ... I'll continue the document check
14:20:09 <cris__> topic: Thing Description
14:20:28 <cris__> subtopic: Update implementation description
14:20:44 <cris__> ege: PR in flight, there was some discussion
14:21:06 <cris__> mc: implementations are inconsistency named
14:21:31 <kaz> s/no action, please don't any addition/if the static version for publication is stable enough, I'll work on that. That means you should not add any more edits ;)/
14:21:35 <kaz> ack k
14:21:47 <kaz> s/... I'll continue the document check//
14:22:04 <cris__> q+
14:23:02 <kaz> i|PR in|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1838 wot-thing-description PR 1838 - Update Implementation Descriptions|
14:23:04 <cris__> cris: will update the directory name
14:23:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:23:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:23:22 <cris__> ege: wot-rust has a PR with the description.
14:23:26 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/pull/582/files
14:23:27 <cris__> mc: we can merge it
14:23:52 <kaz> s/rust/testing/
14:24:20 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/pull/582/files|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/pull/582 wot-testing PR 582 - Add wot-rust implementation description|
14:24:43 <kaz> s/description/description around wot-rust implementation/
14:24:46 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:24:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:25:27 <cris__> ege: should we merge the PR today?
14:25:27 <kaz> i|should|(PR 582 merged)|
14:25:27 <cris__> mc: yes, please I'll follow up with another one
14:26:27 <kaz> s/PR today/TD PR 1838 today/
14:26:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:27:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:27:26 <kaz> s/one/one. Just to make sure, Kaz, would it be OK to keep the Implementation Report updated during the Proposed REC transition procedure?/
14:27:28 <kaz> kaz: yes
14:27:37 <kaz> i/yes/scribenick: kaz/
14:27:38 <cris__> subtopic: PR publication prep
14:27:44 <kaz> scribenick: cris__
14:27:47 <cris__> ege: I worked the static version for publication
14:28:12 <cris__> ... I did some changes to the index.html
14:28:19 <cris__> ... very boring, I summarized in the PR
14:28:35 <kaz> i/subtopic/(PR 1838 merged)/
14:29:03 <kaz> i|worked|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1837 wot-thing-description PR 1837 - PR Publication Prep|
14:29:46 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/1837/13c529a...c6308ce.html#changes-from-cr-2023 diff
14:31:49 <cris__> ... then I did the tooling checks
14:32:38 <cris__> ... I added PR config to respec inside the ver11/6-pr
14:32:50 <cris__> ... no css problems
14:32:59 <Ege> CSS: https://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.statically.io%2Fgh%2Fw3c%2Fwot-thing-description%2Ff014c9592d80d8c3b5da278ff2f89763e8f085fa%2Fpublication%2Fver11%2F6-pr%2FOverview.html&profile=css3svg&usermedium=all&warning=1&vextwarning=&lang=en
14:33:03 <cris__> ... link checker is showing false positives
14:33:06 <Ege> Link Checker: https://validator.w3.org/checklink?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.statically.io%2Fgh%2Fw3c%2Fwot-thing-description%2Ff014c9592d80d8c3b5da278ff2f89763e8f085fa%2Fpublication%2Fver11%2F6-pr%2FOverview.html&hide_type=all&depth=&check=Check
14:33:51 <cris__> mc: what is the broken link mean in this context?
14:34:11 <cris__> kaz: if you can see the expected section then there is no problem
14:34:25 <cris__> ... it might be a bug of the tool
14:34:42 <cris__> ... it could be related to the ietf html
14:34:53 <kaz> q+
14:34:54 <cris__> ege: same thing happen with github
14:34:56 <cris__> ack c
14:35:04 <cris__> ... note that is just the fragment
14:35:49 <cris__> ege: also I got an 401
14:35:56 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:36:00 <cris__> kaz: that link is for AC review, don't worry about the error
14:36:39 <cris__> ege: there is redirection but the link checker report 500
14:36:47 <cris__> kaz: if the content is correct there is no problem
14:37:08 <cris__> ege: I did not bother about redirection warnings
14:37:11 <cris__> kaz: right
14:37:22 <cris__> ege: then we don't have any other errors
14:37:36 <cris__> ... after these checks I controlled Pubrules
14:37:55 <cris__> kaz: have you used static urls in github.io ?
14:38:17 <cris__> ... you can doublecheck the tools after merging the PR with the static page
14:38:18 <kaz> q?
14:38:20 <kaz> ack k
14:38:33 <cris__> ege: pubrules checker results in some warnings
14:39:17 <cris__> ... we add a warning to convey that new features may be added in the future
14:39:54 <cris__> kaz: note that pubchecker and respec are matained by different people
14:40:21 <cris__> ... usually that note should be inserted in the status section
14:40:38 <cris__> ... in theory respec should inject that automatically
14:40:41 <cris__> ege: ok
14:40:41 <kaz> s/pubchecker/Pubrules Checker/
14:40:47 <kaz> s/respec/ReSpec/
14:40:59 <cris__> mc: ok but let's do this consistently  in all the relevant documents
14:41:02 <kaz> s/respec/ReSpec/
14:41:23 <cris__> ege: then I got another warning about messing the end date
14:41:38 <cris__> kaz: it dipends on the actual publication date. I'll handle that.
14:41:43 <cris__> ege: ok that's was all
14:41:52 <cris__> ... any other comments?
14:41:52 <kaz> s/was//
14:44:02 <cris__> ege: wait I noticed that the future update warning mention process 2021 we are not following that
14:44:05 <cris__> kaz: right
14:44:15 <cris__> mc: the warning says *may*
14:44:32 <cris__> kaz: we are following 2021
14:44:40 <cris__> ege: ah ok
14:49:07 <cris__> ege: there is an error
14:49:12 <cris__> kaz: we can fix it offline
14:49:22 <cris__> mc: just let me know how fix it
14:50:50 <cris__> ege: should we merge PR?
14:50:52 <cris__> kaz: yes
14:50:57 <cris__> ege: merged
14:53:43 <cris__> topic: pending issues by REC
14:53:57 <cris__> subtopic: Issue 1753
14:54:12 <cris__> ege: there is informative text to be added
14:54:49 <cris__> mc: I think we should defer this to TD 2.0. In the current status I'd accept only typo fixes
14:55:01 <cris__> ege: ok deferred to 2.0
14:55:13 <cris__> subtopic: Issue 1769
14:55:29 <cris__> ege: we should have a static version of our schema
14:55:29 <kaz> i|there is|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1753 wot-thing-description Issue 1753 - Informative text on text direction handling|
14:56:26 <kaz> q+
14:56:26 <cris__> ... how to proceed ?
14:56:26 <cris__> kaz: we talked about this months ago, I need a concrete URL
14:56:48 <cris__> ... creating a subdirectory under existing namespace is easier
14:56:48 <cris__> ege: alright
14:57:11 <cris__> q+
14:57:17 <kaz> i|we should|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1769 wot-thing-description Issue 1769 - Informative text on text direction handling|
14:57:20 <kaz> ack k
14:57:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/07-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:58:19 <cris__> ack c
14:59:04 <kaz> scribenick: McCool_
14:59:28 <McCool_> topic: Next Charter Discussion
14:59:59 <McCool_> ege: let's go back to the presentation we looked at last week
14:59:59 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-31-05-tdnext.pdf
15:00:09 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-31-05-tdnext.pdf|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2023-31-05-tdnext.pdf Koster's slides|
15:00:15 <kaz> q+
15:00:27 <McCool_> ege: where should we document this big discussion, feedback, etc?
15:00:31 <McCool_> q+
15:01:12 <McCool_> kaz: Koster's proposal is nice, productive, and useful, but needs to be discussed in next charter planning meeting - can have preliminary discussions here
15:01:18 <McCool_> ... but need to summarize
15:01:35 <kaz> ack k
15:02:15 <McCool_> ege: main thing is to create a summary
15:02:36 <McCool_> mm: suggest using an issue, then people can post things, you can post a proposed summary and ask for votes
15:03:20 <McCool_> mm: also think should highlight issues/decisions that need group
15:03:43 <Ege> q?
15:03:44 <McCool_> ... e.g. exact format of bindings document
15:03:46 <Ege> ack m
15:04:22 <McCool_> ege: ok.  Last time we had to stop early since we had to do the IR; do you want to go over some more points?
15:04:36 <McCool_> koster: didn't really go into too much depth, was high-level overview
15:04:54 <McCool_> ... so what we can do is consider this my point of view
15:04:58 <McCool_> ... probably missing some things
15:05:13 <McCool_> ... is just a baseline
15:05:32 <McCool_> ... right now we have about 50 to dig into it a bit
15:05:39 <McCool_> s/50/50 minutes/
15:05:50 <kaz> q+ Koster's voice is OK on my line
15:05:57 <kaz> ack k
15:06:40 <McCool_> koster: basically agree that this pres is just a starting point
15:06:47 <McCool_> ... can add other big items
15:07:01 <McCool_> ... but suggest we spend time today collecting the big items
15:07:19 <McCool_> q+
15:08:19 <McCool_> mm: suggest two large categories, organizational and technical
15:08:31 <McCool_> ... suggest we get the organizational ones out of the way
15:09:38 <McCool_> mm: by organizational I mean what docs do we have, do we use a registry, etc.
15:10:05 <kaz> q+
15:10:16 <kaz> ack m
15:10:17 <kaz> ack k
15:11:10 <McCool_> ege: where should we put it, and what format?
15:11:27 <McCool_> mm: suggest an md file rather than a PDF for ease of editing and tracking changes
15:11:33 <McCool_> ege: in td repo?
15:11:52 <McCool_> mm: think td repo would make sense for details, can link from wot/planning later
15:13:02 <kaz> q+
15:13:48 <McCool_> mm: note that I think we will probably move/reorganize the details document
15:14:24 <kaz> ack k
15:14:40 <McCool_> kaz: should be a topic of the planning meeting
15:15:26 <McCool_> ege: is there a rendered version of the details doc?
15:15:33 <kaz> s/meeting/meeting, but for the moment, I'd suggest we put the MD version of Koster's slides on the wot-thing-description repository as something like "planning.md"/
15:15:36 <McCool_> mm: github.io should work
15:16:48 <McCool_> mm: also, summary can go in same MD file as detailed discussion, just at the top in a "Summary" section
15:17:21 <McCool_> ege: does that work for you, Koster?
15:17:23 <McCool_> koster: sure
15:17:46 <McCool_> ege: ok, will merge a template for this MD file
15:17:47 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/PLANNING.md
15:17:55 <McCool_> koster:
15:18:03 <McCool_> ... I will do a PR to update
15:18:35 <kaz> s/koster://
15:18:41 <kaz> s/... I/koster: I/
15:18:43 <McCool_> ege: do we have anything else to discuss?
15:19:07 <McCool_> mm: maybe look at high-level structure
15:19:38 <McCool_> koster: three big bits: TD, bindings, TM
15:19:44 <McCool_> ... and generally restructuring
15:20:09 <McCool_> ... have generally agreed to integrate bindings into TD spec
15:20:49 <McCool_> ... but not integration of current binding docs, but simplify it, clean up
15:21:11 <Ege> q+
15:21:24 <McCool_> ... and Thing Models, need to clarify some things, consider optionality (e.g.)
15:22:05 <McCool_> mm: and for bindings, this is a registry, not all the detailed bindings, correct?
15:22:10 <McCool_> koster: right
15:22:44 <McCool_> ege: note TM is already part of the TD doc, so is this an internal reorganization?
15:23:08 <McCool_> koster: don't really have a different TM doc, but structure needs some work
15:23:31 <McCool_> ... maybe what is should do is add some "optionality" on top of a Thing
15:23:52 <McCool_> ... e.g. here is a form element, here is what is needed for a TD, here is what is optional in a TM
15:24:23 <McCool_> mm: in summary, describe the TM and TD together
15:24:33 <McCool_> koster: right, they are not that different
15:25:12 <McCool_> ... may still have some separate section for large-scale differences, e.g. contexts
15:25:26 <Ege> ack e
15:25:29 <kaz> q+
15:25:33 <McCool_> ... but details can be done with this optionality idea
15:25:43 <kaz> ack k
15:25:43 <McCool_> kaz: agree, this makes sense
15:25:56 <McCool_> koster: but protocol bindings seems like a separate section
15:26:14 <McCool_> ... think it is a little more than a registry, there needs to be an interface with TDs
15:26:22 <McCool_> ... e.g. vocabularies for forms, etc.
15:26:51 <McCool_> ... can't really legislate how a third-party protocol actually works
15:27:39 <McCool_> mm: one thing I'm concerned about is validation; need to do a better job, including when extensions are used
15:28:20 <McCool_> ege: validation is mentioned in the detailed work items;
15:28:30 <McCool_> ... there is also a "linting" item
15:28:44 <McCool_> koster: maybe looking for a different word
15:28:58 <McCool_> ... question of what checks we need when
15:29:00 <McCool_> q+
15:29:55 <McCool_> mm: may be different kinds of validation for different use cases
15:29:56 <Ege> ack m
15:30:10 <McCool_> ... e.g. for registration in a directory, for writing a protocol binding, etc.
15:31:19 <McCool_> mm: part of the reason I think we need to fix this is that I want to make security etc. more modular, using extensions, but want to make sure they can be validated
15:31:43 <McCool_> koster: there is also "review" material in this presentation
15:32:01 <McCool_> ... core idea is connecting applications to protocols
15:32:41 <McCool_> ... protocol bindings are therefore a key part of this
15:32:53 <McCool_> ... want to make it easy to add protocol bindings
15:33:52 <McCool_> ... but trying to do validation for protocols is kind of out of scope, e.g. imagine trying to validate a binding for MODBUS
15:34:06 <McCool_> ... but we can specify the "connectors"
15:34:34 <McCool_> ... in general we need clear boundaries
15:34:46 <McCool_> ... can also use HTTP and CoAP bindings as test cases
15:34:56 <McCool_> ... refactor, use to "test" interfaces
15:35:19 <McCool_> ege: do feel we should definitely maintain some ourselves, if only to test process
15:35:42 <McCool_> koster: we also have two customers for protocol bindings
15:35:51 <McCool_> ... users vs. those developing bindings
15:35:52 <kaz> q?
15:36:28 <McCool_> koster: brings us to the registry; we maybe have separate sections for these two kinds of users
15:37:44 <McCool_> ... should be some policies, etc. on how submissions are reviewed, maintained, retired (if not being maintained), and so on
15:38:10 <McCool_> ege: also need to consider how to "market" this so people outside can contribute
15:38:13 <McCool_> q+
15:38:53 <kaz> q+
15:39:04 <McCool_> mm: need to consider how non-W3C members, e.g. a CG, can register a binding
15:39:51 <kaz> ack m
15:39:51 <Ege> ack m
15:40:11 <McCool_> ege: should consider issues of permanance, IPR, W3C process and policies, etc.
15:40:32 <dape> q+
15:40:32 <McCool_> koster: can talk to VC group, which has dealt with some of these issues already
15:40:37 <McCool_> ack k
15:40:49 <kaz> ack k
15:41:02 <kaz> s/koster:/kaz:/
15:41:08 <McCool_> dape: about registry, three years, WG is over, can someone still update the registry?
15:41:12 <kaz> s|VC|VC/DID|
15:41:16 <McCool_> ... is there a known process?
15:41:27 <kaz> q+
15:41:34 <McCool_> ege: personally don't know, would have to look
15:41:55 <dape> ack dape
15:41:59 <McCool_> kaz: 2021 does include registry track, but how to maintain registry, need procedural clarification
15:42:42 <McCool_> ege: process document does talk about a "custodian" role, e.g. WG can empower an organization for maintenance
15:42:53 <Ege> ack k
15:43:07 <Ege> https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#reg-table-update
15:43:31 <McCool_> koster: also, issue of github PR, but what if content is hosted elsewhere?
15:43:54 <McCool_> ... maintenance of registry itself is a different issue
15:44:12 <McCool_> ... probably every once in a while a group will have to be reconvened to do updates
15:44:14 <kaz> s/these issues already/these issues already. Also we can ask the other experts within W3C, who have expertise on registries, for help, e.g., Henry Thompson :)/
15:45:03 <McCool_> ege: let's also quickly discuss TMs
15:46:01 <McCool_> ... also would like to remove the various bindings "categories", not that useful and confusing
15:46:16 <McCool_> koster: a few things that happen
15:46:20 <McCool_> ... vocabularies
15:46:46 <McCool_> ... then the payload; what it looks like on the wire
15:47:49 <McCool_> ... when do you edit the TD and when do you edit the binding?  How does the JSON schema in the TD relate to the actual on-the-wire format?
15:48:18 <McCool_> ... ecosystem binding - might use multiple protocols, same payloads, etc.
15:48:41 <McCool_> ... e.g. OCF used variant of CoAP + HTTP
15:49:09 <McCool_> ... ecosystem binding is not JUST a payload and a protocol binding
15:49:19 <McCool_> ege: agree, sometimes it is very clear
15:49:25 <Ege> q?
15:49:30 <McCool_> ... in other cases, it is more complicated
15:50:00 <McCool_> q+
15:50:30 <kaz> q+
15:50:40 <kaz> ack m
15:51:15 <McCool_> mm: organizational issues: one big meeting, separate meetings for TDs and bindings?
15:51:36 <McCool_> ... things like async decision process I think should be made consistent across TFs
15:52:22 <McCool_> ege: may also have special topics, e.g. bindings for some specific protocol like BACNET, may have to invite people from outside
15:52:33 <McCool_> koster: a different goverence path
15:52:48 <McCool_> ... could also imagine delegating some of this to a CG
15:52:51 <Ege> q?
15:53:03 <McCool_> kaz: tend to agree with some of this
15:53:08 <McCool_> ... but not all
15:53:29 <McCool_> ... don't think async decisions are as useful as calls
15:53:38 <Ege> q+
15:53:48 <McCool_> ... so we should be careful about how the overall process works
15:54:20 <McCool_> ege: yes, sometimes github discussions never end or get to a conclusion
15:54:30 <McCool_> ... other things are straightforward
15:54:42 <McCool_> ... but if there is a discussion, a sync call is more useful
15:54:59 <McCool_> kaz: do need to clarify policy about how to manage discussions
15:55:10 <McCool_> ... tech discussions should be based on use cases
15:55:58 <McCool_> ... should avoid features that are purely technical without clear user-driven needs
15:56:18 <McCool_> ... need to consider what is important and necessary
15:56:19 <McCool_> q+
15:56:24 <McCool_> ack k
15:56:49 <Ege> ack e
15:57:08 <McCool_> ege: agree
15:58:22 <Ege> ack m
15:58:28 <McCool_> mm: regarding async/synch, can focus on when we need each
15:58:53 <McCool_> ... as for use cases, I think we can drive new TD features on what we need to support bindings
15:58:59 <McCool_> ... so a bindings-first approach
15:59:14 <kaz> q+
15:59:51 <kaz> ack k
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