IRC log of aria on 2023-06-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:59:59 [RRSAgent]
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17:00:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-aria-irc
17:00:03 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:03 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:04 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:00:04 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:00:04 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:05 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230601T130000
17:00:05 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:00:05 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3OKgNak
17:00:05 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/43A0Do2
17:00:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Recommendation Status
17:00:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Exposure of HTML elements mapped to generic https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/489
17:00:12 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860
17:00:24 [Adam_Page]
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17:01:45 [arigilmore]
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17:01:56 [arigilmore]
present+
17:02:01 [pkra]
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17:02:12 [spectranaut_]
present+
17:02:26 [Adam_Page]
present+
17:02:42 [scotto]
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17:02:48 [pkra]
present+
17:02:54 [spectranaut_]
chair: spectranaut
17:02:54 [scotto]
present+
17:03:04 [jamesn]
present+
17:03:14 [pkra]
scribe pkra
17:03:27 [pkra]
scribe: pkra
17:03:37 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:03:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3OKgNak -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:42 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
17:04:16 [myasonik]
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17:04:18 [pkra]
spectranaut_: aria 1947 on focusgroup
17:04:32 [pkra]
scotto: openUI meeting this morning spoke about focusgroup.
17:04:36 [myasonik]
present+
17:04:53 [pkra]
... want to move it into specs
17:05:19 [pkra]
... focusgroup provides a standardized way for roving tabindex / arrow key navigation
17:05:45 [pkra]
... but it goes way beyond those
17:05:47 [pkra]
... there are bound to be accessibility considerations
17:06:15 [jamesn]
regrets+ AndreaCardona
17:06:16 [pkra]
... list of links could be a case. at high level nice, but testing with AT today, there are potential problems
17:06:24 [jamesn]
regrets+ CurtBellew
17:06:41 [pkra]
... filed it in ARIA instead of html-aam because it could be more widely relevant.
17:07:02 [pkra]
... e.g., people who can't use focusgroup but want something similar.
17:07:14 [pkra]
spectranaut_: let's add it to the agenda
17:07:22 [StefanS]
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17:07:25 [pkra]
jamesn: maybe deep dive, too.
17:07:28 [StefanS]
present+
17:07:52 [pkra]
scotto: main takeaway: this needs to go along with focus group. We should pay attention.
17:08:36 [pkra]
spectranaut_: aria 1946
17:08:55 [pkra]
arigilmore: came from another issue where switched none/presentation in the spec.
17:09:08 [pkra]
... jcraig spotted a detail that could use clarification
17:09:23 [pkra]
spectranaut_: 1 line change?
17:09:26 [pkra]
arigilmore: there might be more
17:09:51 [pkra]
spectranaut_: 1.3 as editorial
17:10:04 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:10:04 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/43A0Do2 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:17 [pkra]
zakim, close item
17:10:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', pkra
17:10:32 [pkra]
zakim, close this item
17:10:32 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:10:33 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:33 [Zakim]
3. Recommendation Status [from agendabot]
17:10:37 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:10:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Recommendation Status -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:22 [pkra]
daniel: we need a record that we're aware that we're ready to move ARIA to REC.
17:11:33 [dmontalvo]
DRAFT RESOLUTION: Group agrees to request advancement of ARIA 1.2 to REC
17:11:43 [spectranaut_]
+1
17:11:45 [pkra]
... we should put out a resolution that the group agrees to move 1.2 to REC
17:11:48 [pkra]
+1
17:11:58 [pkra]
... then we have the record to show the WG agrees.
17:12:08 [jamesn]
+1
17:12:23 [scotto]
+1
17:12:23 [Adam_Page]
+1
17:12:25 [myasonik]
+1
17:12:30 [jcraig]
+1
17:12:34 [jcraig]
present+
17:12:51 [arigilmore]
+1
17:13:07 [spectranaut_]
bryan says +1 in the meeting
17:13:13 [dmontalvo]
RESOLUTION: Group agrees to request advancement of ARIA 1.2 to REC
17:13:18 [pkra]
... no objections.
17:13:25 [pkra]
... thank you very much!
17:13:39 [pkra]
... target is June 6
17:14:16 [pkra]
spectranaut_: thank you, daniel, for getting it published!
17:14:19 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:14:19 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Exposure of HTML elements mapped to generic https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/489 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:00 [pkra]
spectranaut_: james teh had filed it. scotto had responded. the spec doesn't specify but generics can be ignored by browsers.
17:15:34 [pkra]
scotto: my idea was that the concept of generic being pruned from the accessibility tree is not outlined in the spec at all.
17:15:55 [pkra]
... my understanding how we defined generic was that nobody wanted to prohibit pruning generics
17:15:56 [jcraig]
q+
17:16:08 [pkra]
... UAs should be allowed to prune them.
17:16:21 [pkra]
... so I felt this should be handled in ARIA
17:16:29 [BGaraventa]
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17:16:35 [pkra]
... otherwise it would have to be slotted into the minimal role proposal
17:16:58 [spectranaut_]
q?
17:16:58 [pkra]
... but it would add complexity that I don't think we need
17:17:03 [BGaraventa]
present+ bgaraventa
17:17:05 [spectranaut_]
ack jcraig
17:17:41 [pkra]
jcraig: I generally agree. We can adjust WPT tests to take empty string, null or something else. It shouldn't be too hard and makes sense.
17:17:49 [pkra]
... I can review a PR
17:18:03 [pkra]
scotto: I'll make a PR
17:18:10 [pkra]
jcraig: I'll file a WPT issue
17:18:21 [pkra]
spectranaut_: any other concerns?
17:18:24 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:18:24 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:02 [pkra]
spectranaut_: when is this ready to merge?
17:20:07 [pkra]
... when we drafted new PR strategy at last TPAC, we set 1 implementation + 1 commitment
17:20:16 [pkra]
... we have webkit. but no other browsers.
17:20:20 [scotto]
q+
17:20:32 [jamesn]
q+
17:20:40 [pkra]
jcraig: I believe we heard no objections from others in the past, so I think it's more a formal issue.
17:20:45 [jamesn]
qv?
17:21:01 [pkra]
spectranaut_: should we already merge?
17:21:24 [pkra]
jcraig: I'd say let's get Jamie or Aaron to respond. But maybe don't wait for implementation.
17:21:31 [pkra]
... WPT comes into play
17:21:51 [pkra]
... making it testable
17:22:00 [pkra]
... then there's a related accName PR to add the steps there.
17:22:28 [pkra]
... I would take it but I'm blocked a bit so happy to see someone else take it.
17:22:48 [pkra]
bryan: I'll take a look
17:22:51 [jcraig]
https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182
17:23:06 [jamesn]
q?
17:23:15 [pkra]
spectranaut_: ok, then next step is feedback from Jamie and Aaron.
17:23:22 [pkra]
... then automated tests.
17:23:34 [jamesn]
ack scotto
17:24:12 [pkra]
scotto: I was speaking to Aaron. He was hoping to see a list of things from 1.3 so that the team can get to implementations.
17:24:18 [pkra]
... last changelog is from 2020 though.
17:24:39 [pkra]
... there's probably a bunch of things that could be better surfaced if they are in the spec and changelog.
17:24:57 [pkra]
... a chicken/egg situation where people don't see what's waiting in PR.
17:25:03 [pkra]
... not sure what to do about it.
17:25:20 [pkra]
... but 1.3 is still not representative of a living standard.
17:25:56 [pkra]
spectranaut_: I think the new strategy can help improve it. PRs + issues on the browser side.
17:26:10 [Jaunita_George]
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17:26:13 [Jaunita_George]
Present+
17:26:28 [pkra]
scotto: that's good but I'd love to have a changelog to just point to.
17:26:49 [spectranaut_]
ack jamesn
17:26:53 [pkra]
jamesn: I'll take some blame.
17:27:03 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-images-3/#repeating-gradients
17:27:04 [pkra]
... but e.g. CSS specs are doing things differently
17:27:12 [pkra]
... we now have some tests.
17:27:27 [pkra]
... CSS has this "support" section, pulled from caniuse.
17:27:37 [pkra]
... gives info on which browsers implemented it.
17:27:47 [pkra]
... gives both readers and implementors info.
17:27:59 [pkra]
... could we have something like this? From which source?
17:28:03 [jcraig]
q+
17:28:23 [pkra]
jcraig: I have a couple of links...
17:28:27 [jcraig]
https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&q=path%3A%2Faccessibility%20or%20path%3A%2Faccname%20or%20path%3A%2Fhtml-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fwai-aria%20or%20path%3A%2Fsvg-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fgraphics-aria%20or%20path%3A%2Fgraphics-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fdpub-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fhtml%2Fdom%2Faria-element-reflection.html
17:28:42 [pkra]
... this is the current list of results of the accessibility related WPT tests.
17:29:32 [pkra]
...if we can add feature specific labels, maybe even sub-feature level.
17:29:57 [pkra]
... maybe we can get a query that only shows the numbers of this view.
17:30:20 [pkra]
... I'd imagine WPT has some metadata that could be useful, at least in the source
17:30:27 [pkra]
... there's a metadata project in WPT
17:30:42 [pkra]
... we could make a precedent for leveraging this .
17:31:21 [pkra]
jamesn: would be not just "accname supported" but "part 1 of step x is supported"
17:31:41 [pkra]
jcraig: yes, if you dig into the tests, each of the subfiles could have labels that we could then use.
17:32:39 [pkra]
jamesn: for css, bikeshed grabs a fragment from caniuse.
17:33:02 [pkra]
... author puts in the snippet
17:33:18 [pkra]
jcraig: and caniuse is updated by browser evangelists.
17:33:29 [pkra]
... but I like the idea of using WPT tests.
17:33:47 [pkra]
... and more people might be interested in this.
17:33:55 [pkra]
jamesn: we should talk to respec as well.
17:34:01 [pkra]
... maybe a tpac conversation
17:34:36 [pkra]
... and FYI tpac. Our schedule was originally Thursday and Friday but all other groups we might want to meet are also those days.
17:34:43 [pkra]
... so we've moved to Monday + Tuesday morning.
17:34:45 [StefanS]
+1 to moving
17:36:23 [pkra]
... I hope it's not a problem for anybody.
17:36:46 [pkra]
daniel: we just need to decide what time to do on Friday.
17:36:50 [pkra]
jamesn: or just hang out with other groups
17:37:00 [pkra]
spectranaut_: I'd reserve some time just in case.
17:37:12 [pkra]
jamesn: sounds good.
17:37:32 [pkra]
spectranaut_: any other business?
17:38:01 [pkra]
StefanS: I have one. we tend to run into validators complaining about IDs missing for performance reasons.
17:38:35 [pkra]
... if we try to workaround it, then some props might be missing or incomplete
17:38:53 [pkra]
... what does the group think?
17:39:37 [pkra]
jamesn: I think the spec would say: if an ID doesn't match anything, it would be ignored. If the attribute is required, it would be an error. If not, it doesn't matter.
17:39:44 [pkra]
StefanS: combobox controls
17:40:05 [pkra]
scotto: it's required. But it doesn't expect it to be in the DOM
17:40:10 [pkra]
StefanS: so the validators are overeager.
17:40:17 [pkra]
scotto: the spec could be clearer.
17:41:03 [pkra]
jamesn: I think if the spec requires it, it seems questionable since the technology just doesn't work that way.
17:41:19 [pkra]
... so if you find something, we should try and fix it.
17:42:21 [pkra]
... why do we have this requirement anyway?
17:42:33 [pkra]
StefanS: I think it stems from AT association
17:42:47 [pkra]
scotto: I think Sarah might have some experience from testing.
17:42:59 [pkra]
jamesn: that'd be good to know. otherwise, we should drop it.
17:43:22 [pkra]
... it makes comboboxes really hard
17:43:49 [pkra]
scotto: maybe we could be more explicit at indicating when there's a MUST to point to an ID, it's more about "when the elements is in the dom, it has to be there"
17:43:55 [pkra]
... also goes for active descendant.
17:44:00 [pkra]
jamesn: please file an issue
17:44:19 [pkra]
zakim, end meeting
17:44:19 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been arigilmore, spectranaut_, Adam_Page, pkra, scotto, jamesn, Daniel, myasonik, StefanS, jcraig, bgaraventa, Jaunita_George
17:44:22 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:44:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:44:30 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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