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17:00:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-aria-irc
17:00:03 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:00:04 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:04 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:05 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230601T130000
17:00:05 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:05 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3OKgNak
17:00:05 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/43A0Do2
17:00:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Recommendation Status
17:00:10 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Exposure of HTML elements mapped to generic https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/489
17:00:12 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860
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17:01:56 <arigilmore> present+
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17:02:12 <spectranaut_> present+
17:02:26 <Adam_Page> present+
17:02:42 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:02:48 <pkra> present+
17:02:54 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut
17:02:54 <scotto> present+
17:03:04 <jamesn> present+
17:03:14 <pkra> scribe pkra
17:03:27 <pkra> scribe: pkra
17:03:37 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3OKgNak -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:42 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
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17:04:18 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria 1947 on focusgroup
17:04:32 <pkra> scotto: openUI meeting this morning spoke about focusgroup.
17:04:36 <myasonik> present+
17:04:53 <pkra> ... want to move it into specs
17:05:19 <pkra> ... focusgroup provides a standardized way for roving tabindex / arrow key navigation
17:05:45 <pkra> ... but it goes way beyond those
17:05:47 <pkra> ... there are bound to be accessibility considerations
17:06:15 <jamesn> regrets+ AndreaCardona
17:06:16 <pkra> ... list of links could be a case. at high level nice, but testing with AT today, there are potential problems
17:06:24 <jamesn> regrets+ CurtBellew
17:06:41 <pkra> ... filed it in ARIA instead of html-aam because it could be more widely relevant.
17:07:02 <pkra> ... e.g., people who can't use focusgroup but want something similar.
17:07:14 <pkra> spectranaut_: let's add it to the agenda
17:07:22 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:07:25 <pkra> jamesn: maybe deep dive, too.
17:07:28 <StefanS> present+
17:07:52 <pkra> scotto: main takeaway: this needs to go along with focus group. We should pay attention.
17:08:36 <pkra> spectranaut_: aria 1946
17:08:55 <pkra> arigilmore: came from another issue where switched none/presentation in the spec.
17:09:08 <pkra> ... jcraig spotted a detail that could use clarification
17:09:23 <pkra> spectranaut_: 1 line change?
17:09:26 <pkra> arigilmore: there might be more
17:09:51 <pkra> spectranaut_: 1.3 as editorial
17:10:04 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:10:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/43A0Do2 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:17 <pkra> zakim, close item
17:10:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', pkra
17:10:32 <pkra> zakim, close this item
17:10:32 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:10:33 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:33 <Zakim> 3. Recommendation Status [from agendabot]
17:10:37 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:10:37 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Recommendation Status -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:22 <pkra> daniel: we need a record that we're aware that we're ready to move ARIA to REC.
17:11:33 <dmontalvo> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Group agrees to request advancement of ARIA 1.2 to REC
17:11:43 <spectranaut_> +1
17:11:45 <pkra> ... we should put out a resolution that the group agrees to move 1.2 to REC
17:11:48 <pkra> +1
17:11:58 <pkra> ... then we have the record to show the WG agrees.
17:12:08 <jamesn> +1
17:12:23 <scotto> +1
17:12:23 <Adam_Page> +1
17:12:25 <myasonik> +1
17:12:30 <jcraig> +1
17:12:34 <jcraig> present+
17:12:51 <arigilmore> +1
17:13:07 <spectranaut_> bryan says +1 in the meeting
17:13:13 <dmontalvo> RESOLUTION: Group agrees to request advancement of ARIA 1.2 to REC
17:13:18 <pkra> ... no objections.
17:13:25 <pkra> ... thank you very much!
17:13:39 <pkra> ... target is June 6
17:14:16 <pkra> spectranaut_: thank you, daniel, for getting it published!
17:14:19 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:14:19 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Exposure of HTML elements mapped to generic https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/489 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:15:00 <pkra> spectranaut_: james teh had filed it. scotto had responded. the spec doesn't specify but generics can be ignored by browsers.
17:15:34 <pkra> scotto: my idea was that the concept of generic being pruned from the accessibility tree is not outlined in the spec at all.
17:15:55 <pkra> ... my understanding how we defined generic was that nobody wanted to prohibit pruning generics
17:15:56 <jcraig> q+
17:16:08 <pkra> ... UAs should be allowed to prune them.
17:16:21 <pkra> ... so I felt this should be handled in ARIA
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17:16:35 <pkra> ... otherwise it would have to be slotted into the minimal role proposal
17:16:58 <spectranaut_> q?
17:16:58 <pkra> ... but it would add complexity that I don't think we need
17:17:03 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
17:17:05 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:17:41 <pkra> jcraig: I generally agree. We can adjust WPT tests to take empty string, null or something else. It shouldn't be too hard and makes sense.
17:17:49 <pkra> ... I can review a PR
17:18:03 <pkra> scotto: I'll make a PR
17:18:10 <pkra> jcraig: I'll file a WPT issue
17:18:21 <pkra> spectranaut_: any other concerns?
17:18:24 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:18:24 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:02 <pkra> spectranaut_: when is this ready to merge?
17:20:07 <pkra> ... when we drafted new PR strategy at last TPAC, we set 1 implementation + 1 commitment
17:20:16 <pkra> ... we have webkit. but no other browsers.
17:20:20 <scotto> q+
17:20:32 <jamesn> q+
17:20:40 <pkra> jcraig: I believe we heard no objections from others in the past, so I think it's more a formal issue.
17:20:45 <jamesn> qv?
17:21:01 <pkra> spectranaut_: should we already merge?
17:21:24 <pkra> jcraig: I'd say let's get Jamie or Aaron to respond. But maybe don't wait for implementation.
17:21:31 <pkra> ... WPT comes into play
17:21:51 <pkra> ... making it testable
17:22:00 <pkra> ... then there's a related accName PR to add the steps there.
17:22:28 <pkra> ... I would take it but I'm blocked a bit so happy to see someone else take it.
17:22:48 <pkra> bryan: I'll take a look
17:22:51 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182
17:23:06 <jamesn> q?
17:23:15 <pkra> spectranaut_: ok, then next step is feedback from Jamie and Aaron.
17:23:22 <pkra> ... then automated tests.
17:23:34 <jamesn> ack scotto
17:24:12 <pkra> scotto: I was speaking to Aaron. He was hoping to see a list of things from 1.3 so that the team can get to implementations.
17:24:18 <pkra> ... last changelog is from 2020 though.
17:24:39 <pkra> ... there's probably a bunch of things that could be better surfaced if they are in the spec and changelog.
17:24:57 <pkra> ... a chicken/egg situation where people don't see what's waiting in PR.
17:25:03 <pkra> ... not sure what to do about it.
17:25:20 <pkra> ... but 1.3 is still not representative of a living standard.
17:25:56 <pkra> spectranaut_: I think the new strategy can help improve it. PRs + issues on the browser side.
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17:26:13 <Jaunita_George> Present+
17:26:28 <pkra> scotto: that's good but I'd love to have a changelog to just point to.
17:26:49 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:26:53 <pkra> jamesn: I'll take some blame.
17:27:03 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-images-3/#repeating-gradients
17:27:04 <pkra> ... but e.g. CSS specs are doing things differently
17:27:12 <pkra> ... we now have some tests.
17:27:27 <pkra> ... CSS has this "support" section, pulled from caniuse.
17:27:37 <pkra> ... gives info on which browsers implemented it.
17:27:47 <pkra> ... gives both readers and implementors info.
17:27:59 <pkra> ... could we have something like this? From which source?
17:28:03 <jcraig> q+
17:28:23 <pkra> jcraig: I have a couple of links...
17:28:27 <jcraig> https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&q=path%3A%2Faccessibility%20or%20path%3A%2Faccname%20or%20path%3A%2Fhtml-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fwai-aria%20or%20path%3A%2Fsvg-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fgraphics-aria%20or%20path%3A%2Fgraphics-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fdpub-aam%20or%20path%3A%2Fhtml%2Fdom%2Faria-element-reflection.html
17:28:42 <pkra> ... this is the current list of results of the accessibility related WPT tests.
17:29:32 <pkra> ...if we can add feature specific labels, maybe even sub-feature level.
17:29:57 <pkra> ... maybe we can get a query that only shows the numbers of this view.
17:30:20 <pkra> ... I'd imagine WPT has some metadata that could be useful, at least in the source
17:30:27 <pkra> ... there's a metadata project in WPT
17:30:42 <pkra> ... we could make a precedent for leveraging this .
17:31:21 <pkra> jamesn: would be not just "accname supported" but "part 1 of step x is supported"
17:31:41 <pkra> jcraig: yes, if you dig into the tests, each of the subfiles could have labels that we could then use.
17:32:39 <pkra> jamesn: for css, bikeshed grabs a fragment from caniuse.
17:33:02 <pkra> ... author puts in the snippet
17:33:18 <pkra> jcraig: and caniuse is updated by browser evangelists.
17:33:29 <pkra> ... but I like the idea of using WPT tests.
17:33:47 <pkra> ... and more people might be interested in this.
17:33:55 <pkra> jamesn: we should talk to respec as well.
17:34:01 <pkra> ... maybe a tpac conversation
17:34:36 <pkra> ... and FYI tpac. Our schedule was originally Thursday and Friday but all other groups we might want to meet are also those days.
17:34:43 <pkra> ... so we've moved to Monday + Tuesday morning.
17:34:45 <StefanS> +1 to moving
17:36:23 <pkra> ... I hope it's not a problem for anybody.
17:36:46 <pkra> daniel: we just need to decide what time to do on Friday.
17:36:50 <pkra> jamesn: or just hang out with other groups
17:37:00 <pkra> spectranaut_: I'd reserve some time just in case.
17:37:12 <pkra> jamesn: sounds good.
17:37:32 <pkra> spectranaut_: any other business?
17:38:01 <pkra> StefanS: I have one. we tend to run into validators complaining about IDs missing for performance reasons.
17:38:35 <pkra> ... if we try to workaround it, then some props might be missing or incomplete
17:38:53 <pkra> ... what does the group think?
17:39:37 <pkra> jamesn: I think the spec would say: if an ID doesn't match anything, it would be ignored. If the attribute is required, it would be an error. If not, it doesn't matter.
17:39:44 <pkra> StefanS: combobox controls
17:40:05 <pkra> scotto: it's required. But it doesn't expect it to be in the DOM
17:40:10 <pkra> StefanS: so the validators are overeager.
17:40:17 <pkra> scotto: the spec could be clearer.
17:41:03 <pkra> jamesn: I think if the spec requires it, it seems questionable since the technology just doesn't work that way.
17:41:19 <pkra> ... so if you find something, we should try and fix it.
17:42:21 <pkra> ... why do we have this requirement anyway?
17:42:33 <pkra> StefanS: I think it stems from AT association
17:42:47 <pkra> scotto: I think Sarah might have some experience from testing.
17:42:59 <pkra> jamesn: that'd be good to know. otherwise, we should drop it.
17:43:22 <pkra> ... it makes comboboxes really hard
17:43:49 <pkra> scotto: maybe we could be more explicit at indicating when there's a MUST to point to an ID, it's more about "when the elements is in the dom, it has to be there"
17:43:55 <pkra> ... also goes for active descendant.
17:44:00 <pkra> jamesn: please file an issue
17:44:19 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
17:44:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been arigilmore, spectranaut_, Adam_Page, pkra, scotto, jamesn, Daniel, myasonik, StefanS, jcraig, bgaraventa, Jaunita_George
17:44:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:44:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/06/01-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:44:30 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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