13:01:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
13:01:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/30-epub-fxl-irc
13:01:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:01:19 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
13:01:40 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessibility Task Force Meeting 30 May 2023
13:01:43 <wendyreid> date: 2023-05-30
13:02:26 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
13:03:00 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl
13:03:30 <jeffrey_griggs> jeffrey_griggs has joined #epub-fxl
13:03:32 <gpellegrino> present+
13:03:44 <wendyreid> present+
13:03:45 <jeffrey_griggs> present+
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13:05:14 <gpellegrino> scribe+
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13:05:40 <duga> present+
13:05:46 <gautier> present+
13:07:37 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: this is our first meeting in the Publishing CG
13:07:57 <gpellegrino> ... we moved here from the WG, since this work is more on incubation
13:08:41 <gpellegrino> ... there'll be a new WG for maintenance of EPUB3
13:09:05 <gpellegrino> duga: I'm Brady I work in Google, I'm in EPUB space since many years
13:09:16 <gpellegrino> gautier: I'm Gautier I work for EDRLab
13:09:20 <shadi> shadi has joined #epub-fxl
13:09:26 <shadi> present+
13:09:36 <gpellegrino> JonasLillqvist: I'm Jonas, I work at CELIA, the DAISY library in Finland
13:09:56 <gpellegrino> shadi: I'm Shadi from Amazon, I was a W3C staff
13:10:17 <gpellegrino> jeffrey_griggs: I'm Jeffrey from Penguin Random House
13:11:00 <gpellegrino> Miia: I'm Miia from Celia
13:11:33 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: I'm Wendy from Rakuten Kobo, I've been the chair of the EPUB 3 WG, now I chair this group
13:11:53 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: First question: what do we want to focus on?
13:12:27 <gpellegrino> ... we started with guidelines and ideas for making fixed layout more accessible
13:13:10 <gpellegrino> ... one is the idea to being able to switch from FXL content to the same content in reflowable
13:13:29 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/publishingcg/TaskForces/fxl-a11y/index.html
13:14:31 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
13:14:42 <gpellegrino> q+
13:14:46 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:14:49 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:15:33 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: From experience as LIA, in the last month we assessed an accessible FXL book, we sent to some blind testers, and they asked why?
13:15:44 <wendyreid> ... experience for them was no different than any other book
13:15:50 <wendyreid> ... maybe we're not so far away
13:16:02 <wendyreid> ... we do need to explore some ways for low vision users to get the content
13:16:11 <wendyreid> ... fxl content for low-vision users is tricky
13:16:25 <wendyreid> ... maybe that work is not on the side of content creators, but on the side of reading solutions
13:16:28 <gautier> q+
13:17:03 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Another related thing, in WCAG as far as I know, it is required to be able to zoom fxl content by 200% or 400% which is the way PDFs can be compliant
13:17:13 <wendyreid> ... since we know PDF reflow is limited
13:17:44 <wendyreid> ... we know most reading solutions limit zoom for FXL, especially on desktop
13:17:57 <wendyreid> ... maybe having some guidelines or suggestions for RS developers may be useful
13:18:01 <wendyreid> q+
13:18:04 <wendyreid> ack gautier
13:18:07 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:18:29 <gpellegrino> gautier: from the RS development side, we've seen different projects in the past months
13:18:40 <gpellegrino> ... and been asked different implementations
13:19:03 <gpellegrino> ... we can't develop an implementation for every proof of concept
13:19:45 <gpellegrino> ... I think that before developing, we need to get a common way to resolve the issue
13:20:27 <gpellegrino> ... so to be sure that our effort it useful
13:21:13 <gpellegrino> ... for sure having the zoom is fine, but it is the minim level
13:21:39 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:22:07 <gpellegrino> ... the problems we see in the EPUBs is that they're mainly created by InDesign
13:22:30 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: for sure there is room for guidelines for reading systems
13:22:45 <gpellegrino> ... zoom is important, but is not sufficient
13:23:33 <gpellegrino> ... think about mobile readers
13:23:50 <gpellegrino> ... but also think about FXLs made only of images
13:24:02 <gpellegrino> ... there we cannot extract the text
13:24:25 <gpellegrino> q+
13:24:31 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:25:06 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: My first idea was something like the guide from the PDF association for getting HTML out of PDFs, a standardized approach
13:25:23 <wendyreid> ... that enables every content creator to create a PDF that can be made reflowable
13:25:41 <wendyreid> ... I think this might be one approach
13:25:48 <wendyreid> ... accessibility means quality
13:26:09 <wendyreid> ... a subset of building FXL content, don't focus necessarily on tools
13:26:19 <wendyreid> ... what do we need from HTML to have better reading experiences
13:26:26 <Naomi> Naomi has joined #epub-fxl
13:26:28 <wendyreid> ... I know many FXL titles are image-only
13:26:33 <Naomi> present+
13:26:36 <wendyreid> ... those FXL aren't accessible at all
13:26:49 <wendyreid> ... it can be done, but in this TF we can try to raise the bar
13:27:02 <wendyreid> ... if you want to make a FXL out of images, fine, but if you want it to be accessible, do this
13:27:34 <gpellegrino> https://pdfa.org/resource/deriving-html-from-pdf/
13:27:50 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:28:34 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: we can give to the users all the information, but then is on their side to decide to do something or not
13:28:46 <gpellegrino> ... like making a content accessible or not
13:30:03 <Naomi> q+
13:30:09 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: so for the moment we have: guidelines accessible FXL reading systems, guidelines for content creators to enable them to make great FXL books that can be manipulated by reading solutions (making them reflowable)
13:30:10 <wendyreid> ack Naomi
13:30:19 <gpellegrino> ... like PDF association
13:30:54 <gpellegrino> Naomi: something very useful may be a mapping between a11y metadata and code examples
13:31:04 <gpellegrino> ... so we can start from something
13:31:05 <gpellegrino> q+
13:31:12 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:31:41 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: I think most of us here knows Lars from Colibrio, Lars thinks that SVG can be a game changer for making accessible FXL with complex layouts, using ARIA and SVG
13:31:48 <wendyreid> ... I haven't tested it yet
13:31:59 <Naomi> q+
13:32:12 <wendyreid> ... not sure if it's supported by assistive technologies, but a better way to export a book from authoring tools
13:32:21 <wendyreid> ... pixel perfect without losing semantivs
13:32:24 <duga> q+
13:32:32 <wendyreid> ... maybe a research project to check that
13:32:41 <wendyreid> ... we focused mainly on HTML/image formats
13:32:48 <wendyreid> ... but SCG is also supported by the standards
13:32:55 <wendyreid> s/SCG/SVG/
13:32:58 <wendyreid> ack Naomi
13:33:00 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:33:18 <gpellegrino> Naomi: we've never done SVG in spine
13:33:35 <gpellegrino> ... but we did embed SVGs in HTML
13:33:43 <gpellegrino> ... but not all reading systems support it
13:33:53 <gpellegrino> ... so this may block content creators
13:34:08 <gpellegrino> ... I think it'll need more research
13:34:13 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:34:33 <gpellegrino> duga: we implemented this at the begin of the pandemic
13:34:52 <gpellegrino> ... we used SVG and used ARIA plus Media Overlays
13:35:01 <gpellegrino> ... it was pixel perfect
13:35:25 <gpellegrino> ... even if text is a drawing, you can group it and make it acts like text
13:35:37 <gpellegrino> ... the Media Overlay works perfectly
13:36:00 <gpellegrino> ... we didn't continue with this project
13:36:22 <gpellegrino> ... we has issue in grouping words and lines
13:37:55 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: one question is: what is the time on production side?
13:38:11 <gpellegrino> Naomi: I have code that converts text on a path in InDesign in SVG
13:38:12 <gpellegrino> q+
13:38:31 <gpellegrino> ... it was not simple, but can be done
13:39:06 <gpellegrino> ... I think InDesign is not that interested in exporting SVGs
13:39:26 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:39:27 <gpellegrino> duga: we used Google slides as sources, where you can export SVGs
13:39:42 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: I think you can get quality SVG out of PDFs
13:40:00 <wendyreid> ... it's a strange workflow, but if you get a good PDF, you can then convert to SVG, then add ARIA
13:40:08 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:40:48 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: it worths doing research on this
13:41:27 <gpellegrino> ... from EPUB tests we know that SVG is well supported by different reading systems
13:41:44 <gpellegrino> Naomi: we had problems with text on a path
13:42:17 <gpellegrino> ... SVG in general may work, but specific features may not
13:43:20 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: region base navigation is a thing
13:43:31 <gpellegrino> ... it's not well supported right now
13:44:10 <gpellegrino> ... I think it is important to investigate the needs of users
13:44:28 <gpellegrino> ... link cognitive disabilities users, they may benefit for narrated books
13:44:42 <gpellegrino> q+
13:44:46 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:45:10 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Two things, on the issue side, I could open an issue for SVG investigation just ot have something to follow.
13:45:13 <gautier> q+
13:45:32 <wendyreid> .. there is a lot of hype right now around accessible FXL, at the same time there is some misinformation out there
13:45:42 <wendyreid> ... if accessible FXL is a new specification
13:46:04 <wendyreid> ... in my opinion, accessible FXL is just a FXL EPUB3 following WCAG
13:46:12 <wendyreid> ... there are different interpretations
13:46:22 <wendyreid> ... media overlays but without semantics
13:46:26 <wendyreid> ack gautier
13:46:29 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:47:03 <gpellegrino> gautier: I think the document linked by Wendy is a reference point as state of the art
13:47:42 <gpellegrino> ... maybe from there we can link to different solutions from there
13:48:11 <gpellegrino> ... so that then we can have a short list of the proposals
13:48:41 <gpellegrino> ... because it is difficult for reading systems developers to implement them all
13:50:05 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: Ok, we can open different issues
13:50:31 <gpellegrino> ... and then I can add a paragraph on the note, telling what is an accessible FXL
13:50:38 <gpellegrino> ... I'll make a PR on that
13:50:58 <gpellegrino> ... if you have new ideas on this, please open an issue in the CG repository
13:51:34 <gpellegrino> ... we have different task forces in the CG
13:51:41 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues
13:52:50 <gpellegrino> ... se you all in 4 weeks
13:53:11 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
13:53:11 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, wendyreid, jeffrey_griggs, duga, gautier, shadi, Naomi
13:53:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:53:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/30-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
13:53:21 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:53:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
13:53:31 <wendyreid> present+ JonasLillqvist, Miia
13:53:42 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:53:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/30-epub-fxl-minutes.html wendyreid
13:54:09 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
13:54:09 <RRSAgent> I see no action items