12:57:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag-act
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12:57:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:58:00 <Zakim> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
12:58:00 <kathy> agenda+ ACT Standup
12:58:04 <kathy> agenda+ Decide if we want to continue using "test cases" as a term, along with example
12:58:15 <kathy> agenda+ Subjective exceptions in the applicability
12:58:25 <kathy> agenda+ Secondary requirements and accessibility support
12:58:35 <kathy> agenda+ Optional test cases
12:59:30 <Helen> Helen has joined #wcag-act
13:00:20 <kathy> present+
13:00:29 <Helen> present+
13:01:09 <Wilco> present+
13:01:41 <Suji> Suji has joined #wcag-act
13:01:46 <Suji> present+
13:01:49 <catherine> catherine has joined #wcag-act
13:01:49 <kathy> scribe+ kathy
13:01:56 <Wilco> present+ Tom
13:01:56 <catherine> present+
13:02:30 <kathy> zakim, take up next
13:02:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- ACT Standup -- taken up [from kathy]
13:02:32 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
13:02:34 <ChrisLoiselle> :)
13:02:48 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
13:03:17 <Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2067
13:03:19 <kathy> wilco: feedback from AGWG, set up a new survey, help Chris with implementation
13:04:09 <Wilco> So this: https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/5f99a7/ now redirects to ./proposed/
13:04:43 <kathy> daniel: reviewed and approved PR on aria-required ID, proposed tools, work to publish ACT Rules format
13:05:26 <dmontalvo> Chair: Wilco
13:06:13 <kathy> kathy: github guidance, label in name Underdstanding PR
13:07:01 <kathy> catherine: my re-review responses not showing up for SVG element,
13:07:57 <kathy> suji: re-review of rules
13:09:31 <kathy> chris: Oracle implementation, re-review completed, Heading has non-empty accname, reviewed label in name PR
13:11:30 <kathy> helen: table header cell PR 1971 pending work from aaron, PR 2064 for audio element feedback from jean yves
13:13:09 <kathy> tom: iframe PR has enough reviewers, pass examples for aria and html disagreements in 2 aria rules
13:13:58 <kathy> zakim, take up next
13:13:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Decide if we want to continue using "test cases" as a term, along with example -- taken up [from kathy]
13:14:45 <kathy> wilco: rules format today uses term "test cases" but then started using "examples" when writing rules
13:15:27 <kathy> ... rules now have a mix of terms interchangeably. Can we be consistent and pick one?
13:15:40 <kathy> suji and catherine: like "examples"
13:16:06 <kathy> chris: either, no preference
13:16:53 <kathy> helen: depends on context
13:17:59 <kathy> tom: examples are not how to implement rule. they are examples of what you might test with the rule.
13:18:13 <kathy> ... ok with examples
13:18:49 <kathy> wilco: any objection to leave as is?
13:19:52 <kathy> chris: if oracle has a bug, we ask for expected vs actual. it's a use case or test case for problem.
13:20:08 <kathy> ... for educational, I can see using example
13:20:35 <kathy> wilco: I think we should pick one term and be consistent
13:21:29 <kathy> tom: in API we use test case, harder to change
13:21:54 <kathy> wilco: it's quite a bit of work to change in API from test case to example
13:22:58 <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/TR/act-rules-format/#test-cases
13:23:05 <kathy> daniel: test case is most accurate technical term but can explain or define it more clearly
13:23:23 <ChrisLoiselle> https://www.functionize.com/blog/a-glossary-of-testing-terms , perhaps test case and test script
13:23:37 <ChrisLoiselle> or test plan
13:25:16 <kathy> helen: example is quite general and can be anything where test case is testing something
13:25:54 <kathy> wilco: if we use test cases, what do we call pass examples?
13:26:15 <kathy> helen: passing test case 1
13:26:53 <kathy> daniel: pass test case is long
13:27:16 <kathy> helen: heading is test cases so subheadings are examples of test cases
13:27:24 <ChrisLoiselle> test data being what the "example" is? I defer to group :)
13:27:32 <kathy> wilco: continue as is
13:28:42 <Wilco> draft RESOLUTION: Continue using "test cases" as the main heading, and "examples" as sub-headings
13:29:16 <Wilco> RESOLUTION: Continue using "test cases" as the main heading, and "examples" as sub-headings
13:29:19 <kathy> wilco: update the rules format to follow modern style of writing rules
13:29:24 <kathy> zakim, take up next
13:29:24 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Subjective exceptions in the applicability -- taken up [from kathy]
13:29:45 <Wilco> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/discussions/2061
13:30:09 <kathy> wilco: had this conversation last week, opened a discussion about subjective applicability
13:31:10 <kathy> ... losing objective applicability allows pretty generic rules
13:31:39 <kathy> ... the generic rule is the SC rewritten in 2 parts
13:32:17 <kathy> ... generic rule does not improve SC and we wanted to avoid that problem
13:32:51 <kathy> tom: challenges of SC
13:34:04 <kathy> kathy: agree subjective applicability is not helpful to testing
13:35:33 <kathy> chris: more strict tests would be better
13:36:23 <kathy> helen: subjectivity is always going to be present as long as we define anything that can be open to interpretation
13:37:12 <kathy> wilco: applicability now is an element
13:38:16 <kathy> ... there is a gap. example is pie chart can't be targeted explicitly
13:39:09 <kathy> ... for many elements, WCAG requires semantics but not role=img on an img
13:39:45 <kathy> ... can write a rule for css to have role=img
13:40:45 <kathy> ... objective applicability prevents writing of some rules for wcag
13:42:32 <kathy> tom: can be objective but not programmatically objective
13:43:41 <kathy> ... a human can make an objective decision with information
13:45:02 <kathy> wilco: tried to deal with ambiguity by listing out items of interest
13:46:18 <kathy> ... what about splitting out non-text content that has semantics of an image and a separate rule for non-text content without semantics of an image
13:47:38 <kathy> chris: wcag3 working on an approach
13:48:32 <kathy> wilco: separate elements with semantics from elements that don't
13:48:56 <kathy> daniel: may need to try this out
13:51:05 <kathy> kathy: for non-text content example, there's many types of non-text content so one rule for all of it doesn't work. maybe a rule for each type of non-text content?
13:51:22 <kathy> wilco draws.
13:52:18 <kathy> wilco: one circle "semantics", one circle "function". they partially overlap.
13:52:47 <kathy> ... example of heading: overlap is semantic heading functions as a heading
13:53:35 <kathy> ... subjective applicability functional heading, that looks like a heading
13:53:45 <kathy> ... has semantics of a heading
13:54:54 <kathy> chris: if a heading has aria level 9, is this semantic or functional?
13:55:08 <kathy> wilco: semantic
13:56:05 <kathy> ... circles drawing works when semantics are required but not for image which doesn't require semantic, but requires accname
13:56:32 <kathy> ... draws a rectangle that overlaps both functional and semantics circles
13:56:51 <kathy> ... rectangle "accessible name"
13:57:32 <kathy> ... rectangle overlaps intersection of functional and semantics circles
13:58:15 <kathy> ... currently don't have a way to test things that function as an image to have an accname
13:59:32 <ChrisLoiselle> Thanks!
14:00:32 <kathy> zakim, end meeting
14:00:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been kathy, Helen, Wilco, Suji, Tom, catherine, ChrisLoiselle, Daniel
14:00:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1
14:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-wcag-act-minutes.html Zakim
14:00:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, kathy; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:00:44 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-wcag-act-minutes.html dmontalvo
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