17:00:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/18-aria-irc
17:00:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:00:42 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:00:42 <jamesn> meeting ARAI WG
17:00:42 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:42 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:42 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:42 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20230518T130000
17:00:42 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/41IfHyA
17:00:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3IgeGHi
17:00:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> add proposed header and footer roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1931
17:00:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860
17:00:42 <agendabot> agenda+ Follow up from ARIA and AT discussion from F2F
17:00:49 <benb> benb has joined #aria
17:00:52 <benb> present+
17:01:48 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
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17:04:03 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:04:06 <Adam_Page> present+
17:04:10 <jamesn> present+
17:04:16 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:04:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/41IfHyA -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:23 <Michail> present+
17:04:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: 8 new issues
17:04:51 <Adam_Page> ... #1939
17:04:56 <Adam_Page> ... this is a good idea
17:05:07 <Adam_Page> ... none is preferred
17:05:13 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: is this a good first issue?
17:05:35 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: maybe reach out to andreeacordona
17:05:58 <Adam_Page> s/andreeacordona/andreacardona/
17:06:14 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1937
17:06:26 <Adam_Page> ... added it to the live regions update project
17:06:35 <Adam_Page> scotto: yeah, this has essentially already been filed
17:07:07 <Adam_Page> scotto: duplicate needs to be closed in core-aam
17:07:16 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I agree
17:08:45 <Adam_Page> ... closed it
17:09:22 <Adam_Page> ... #174
17:09:36 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: just a follow-up issue for me, no milestoning needed
17:09:58 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: jcraig, you’ll resolve this with #176
17:10:11 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: ditto for #175
17:10:19 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1936
17:10:33 <Adam_Page> ... we refer to things begin focusable but don’t define what that means
17:10:38 <Adam_Page> ... and there are often questions
17:10:50 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I’m not familiar with how someone could misunderstand it?
17:11:13 <Adam_Page> jcraig: one example is `tabindex="-1"` — focusable in some contexts, but not by tab key
17:11:42 <Adam_Page> jamesn: svg *does* define focusable.  html kind of does, but it’s not exported
17:12:10 <Adam_Page> ... we need to think about how we use “focusable” in ARIA and whether it needs clarification
17:12:16 <Adam_Page> ... let’s agenda it for next week
17:12:23 <Adam_Page> ... #486
17:12:27 <Adam_Page> ... this is html-aam
17:12:52 <Adam_Page> scotto: impetus for this is that anne noticed that it was not spec’d in html-aam
17:13:03 <Adam_Page> ... which is because it was made obsolete back in HTML4
17:13:28 <Adam_Page> ... we can go in and just say they’re all generic
17:13:41 <Adam_Page> jamesn: or we could say to treat it the same as HTML
17:13:55 <Adam_Page> jcraig: xmp is a little different, but agreed on the others
17:14:02 <Adam_Page> jamesn: how is it different?
17:14:23 <Adam_Page> jcraig: different from the context of user agents.  One example is you don’t need to escape your < characters.
17:14:52 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, but for accessibility, that doesn’t matter.  we could just say it maps to pre
17:15:05 <Adam_Page> ... maybe we should actually un-obsolete xmp ;-)
17:15:50 <Adam_Page> ... so I’d prefer not to see explicit mappings for this but to leverage existing relationships
17:16:05 <Adam_Page> scotto: largely, they’re going to map to generic
17:16:43 <Adam_Page> ... and even in the cases where they don’t, like `strike`, we can say it maps to `del`, but for what benefit?  No one’s going to go back and implement that
17:17:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1934
17:17:14 <Adam_Page> ... editorial
17:17:18 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:17:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3IgeGHi -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:31 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #176
17:17:45 <Adam_Page> ... jcraig, do we need reviewers?
17:17:51 <Adam_Page> jcraig: yes, I’d like scotto to review
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17:18:05 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll get to that
17:18:23 <CurtBellew> present+
17:18:27 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #485
17:18:33 <Adam_Page> ... this sounds editorial
17:18:44 <jcraig> present+
17:18:44 <Adam_Page> ... dmontalvo, could you review this?
17:18:50 <Adam_Page> dmontalvo: yes
17:18:58 <Adam_Page> jamesn: and I’ll also review
17:19:25 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #484
17:19:28 <Adam_Page> ... still draft
17:19:32 <Adam_Page> ... already have 3 reviewers
17:19:38 <Adam_Page> ... but help yourself if you’d like to review
17:20:28 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:20:28 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> add proposed header and footer roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1931 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1931 PR
17:20:53 <Adam_Page> ... waiting on my and spectranaut_’s review
17:21:00 <Adam_Page> ... scotto, anything to say on this?
17:21:24 <Adam_Page> scotto: I brought this topic up a couple weeks ago
17:21:43 <Adam_Page> ... adding these roles to allow for header and footer as exposed as something beyond generic in cases where they’re not exposed as landmarks
17:21:54 <Adam_Page> ... because of the work going on with minimum role and contextual roles
17:22:27 <Adam_Page> ... if these were given attributes related to naming, etc., we could fall back to group, or we could try to match semantics of what HTML intends
17:22:40 <Adam_Page> ... we reached out to HTML editors and they essentially said “fine”
17:22:52 <Adam_Page> ... so this PR is the result
17:23:49 <jamesn> q+
17:24:01 <Adam_Page> ... the open question is “do we want these roles?  would anyone actually benefit?” or would they just be better fallbacks?
17:24:16 <Adam_Page> jamesn: would we expect AT to do anything different?  and if so, what?
17:24:20 <jamesn> ack me
17:24:47 <Adam_Page> scotto: my rationale had been that they’d be mapped to the group role but have different role descriptions, like “section header” and “section footer” to differentiate them from full page headers and footers
17:25:01 <Adam_Page> ... if they weren’t named or given tabindex, etc., then they arguably should be able to be treated as they are now
17:25:17 <Adam_Page> ... like JAWS and NVDA will essentially ignore these groups if they’re not given names
17:25:29 <Adam_Page> jcraig: same with VO; it’ll just skip over
17:26:25 <Adam_Page> ... so this is a fairly minimal change, but I agree with scotto that this would be an easy way to make sure no purposeful semantics are lost
17:26:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: but if nothing is going to expose them, then what’s the point?
17:26:54 <Adam_Page> jcraig: because it would be more meaningful *if* were to expose them
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17:27:25 <Adam_Page> jamesn: but how could it actually be useful to a user?
17:27:43 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:27:53 <Adam_Page> scotto: the basic goal is to just provide something more useful/logical than group
17:28:56 <Adam_Page> jcraig: for example, a header with a heading in it would currently be presented as “foo, group.  bar, heading” but it could be “foo, header.  bar, heading”.
17:29:15 <Adam_Page> ... it’s super easy, low impact to users.  They’re hearing something anyway, and this is just slightly more specific
17:29:52 <Adam_Page> ... but the question could be did the author *mean* to use header when they actually intended something more generic like div.  Could it be misused?
17:30:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, fair enough
17:30:38 <Adam_Page> ... if anyone else wants to review, please go ahead
17:30:39 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:30:39 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:31:02 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this is waiting on my review
17:31:07 <Adam_Page> ... I merged the ARIA common stuff
17:31:14 <Adam_Page> ... so this should be ready to look at now
17:31:54 <Adam_Page> ... jcraig, do we need to wait for bgaraventa?
17:32:01 <Adam_Page> jcraig: no, I don’t think so
17:32:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: oh, we need to wait for the accname changes, tests, etc. before we can merge according to our new process
17:32:29 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: you can +1 it, it just can’t be merged
17:32:34 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, I’ll review it
17:32:53 <Adam_Page> ... this one definitely needs implementations, right?
17:33:08 <Adam_Page> jcraig: at least tests, and no objections
17:33:16 <Adam_Page> jamesn: right, it needs commitment to implement
17:33:22 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: yes
17:33:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we can put something like this in accname since it will soon be a living standard
17:33:59 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:33:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Follow up from ARIA and AT discussion from F2F -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:25 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we didn’t really conclude this discussion at the face-to-face
17:34:38 <Adam_Page> ... don’t know what do with this one, spectranaut_, any ideas?
17:34:54 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: MattKing and aaronlev should be present for this discussion
17:35:00 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I can give an update
17:36:18 <jcraig> Bocoup proposal w3c.github.io/at-driver
17:36:22 <Adam_Page> ... Lola and Mike Hennessy asked about a proposal called “AT driver”
17:36:36 <Adam_Page> ... my feedback was that this is a huge security backdoor
17:37:38 <jcraig> https://w3c.github.io/webdriver-bidi/
17:37:41 <Adam_Page> ... but did point them to a few other projects: WPT, the new AOM issue for computed accessible node, web driver BiDi
17:38:07 <Adam_Page> ... I think this one has potential and almost certainly has other security professionals working on it
17:38:18 <Adam_Page> ... security is already a top-level goal
17:38:36 <jcraig> s/security is already a top-level goal/security should be a top-level goal/
17:40:26 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, so that’s one part of the general ARIA+AT topic
17:41:17 <Adam_Page> ... does anyone have anything to add on this?  how we can more effectively work with AT, to communicate what we want from them?
17:41:44 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: one thing we talked about in the face-to-face is that there is some desire for advice on how screen readers should handle certain roles
17:41:59 <Adam_Page> ... so there could be cases where we want to add non-normative advice to the spec, under each role when appropriate
17:42:34 <Adam_Page> jamesn: that sounds good, maybe in the editor’s core we should decide how to do that in a way that’s easily consumable for AT devs
17:42:52 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: and this will increase communication because we can document it and hand it over
17:43:03 <Adam_Page> jcraig: yeah, non-normative notes seem fine
17:43:21 <Adam_Page> ... I agree about editors review, maybe put it in a style guide
17:43:38 <Adam_Page> ... e.g., don’t give prescriptive guidance, but offer examples
17:43:47 <Adam_Page> ... keep it from being platform-specific, etc.
17:44:31 <Adam_Page> jamesn: yes, would like to see some new CSS to make these more conspicuous, differentiate them from advice for other audiences
17:44:42 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: do we have any existing examples?
17:45:01 <Adam_Page> jcraig: yes, the annotation stuff
17:45:08 <jcraig> s/platform-specific, etc./modality-specific, platform-specific, etc./
17:45:13 <Adam_Page> s/examples/candidates/
17:45:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: cool, I think that might be a wrap?
17:45:26 <Adam_Page> ... anything else?
17:45:30 <jcraig> s/jcraig: yes, the annotation stuff/jamesn: yes, the annotation stuff/
17:50:18 <jcraig> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/#changelog
17:51:50 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
17:51:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been benb, Adam_Page, jamesn, Michail, CurtBellew, jcraig
17:51:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:51:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/18-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:52:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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