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15:55:04 <shadi> Meeting: Guidance for Policy Makers Subgroup
15:55:13 <shadi> chair: Shadi
15:56:51 <shadi> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2023AprJun/0142.html
15:58:33 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #wcag3-policy
15:58:45 <bruce_bailey> present+
15:58:52 <shadi> present+
16:02:39 <Laura_Carlson> Laura_Carlson has joined #wcag3-policy
16:02:45 <shadi> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Guidance-for-policy-makers-Subgroup
16:03:35 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #wcag3-policy
16:03:44 <bruce_bailey> https://w3c.github.io/silver/use-cases/
16:04:06 <Wilco> present+
16:05:09 <bruce_bailey> Explore the Use cases for WCAG 3.0 to extract potential considerations for designing the conformance section, and for further informative guidance for policy makers wanting to adopt WCAG.
16:05:50 <Wilco> scribe+
16:06:12 <Wilco> agenda?
16:06:31 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #wcag3-policy
16:06:33 <Wilco> Shadi: We will be meeting the next 8 weeks
16:06:57 <Wilco> ... If anyone's not able to scribe, let me know and you won't be on the scribe list
16:07:28 <Laura_Carlson> present+ Laura_Carlson
16:07:39 <Wilco> ... The next 8 Mondays, noon US Eastern, we'll meet
16:08:01 <shadi> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20230515T120000&p1=43
16:08:30 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_silver-fri
16:08:50 <kirkwood> present+
16:09:03 <wendyreid> present+
16:09:03 <Wilco> ... the idea of the subgroup is to provide a proposal to the parent group.
16:09:27 <Wilco> ... They'll decide next steps from there. We'll try to follow an iterative approach
16:09:37 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12O-1BKwlx4iR43GvFzmScejq2xU9V-rehrlxN42st5M/edit
16:10:04 <Wilco> ... I hope everyone has read the subgroup handbook.
16:10:33 <shadi> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Guidance-for-policy-makers-Subgroup
16:10:41 <Wilco> ... We'll take minutes. I'll send those out to the list, and we'll link them from the subgroup page.
16:12:09 <bruce_bailey> q+ to ask where to put early comments/notes/questions ?
16:12:10 <Wilco> ... After about 4 or 5 weeks we should provide an update to AGWG. During the regular AGWG calls there is a short update 2 min.
16:12:21 <Wilco> ack b
16:12:21 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask where to put early comments/notes/questions ?
16:12:53 <Wilco> Bruce: Where can we put scratchpad kind-of things? I started to write my notes for myself on the use cases.
16:13:22 <Wilco> Wilco: I can create a Google doc
16:13:57 <Wilco> Shadi: A wiki gets messy quite quickly. A Google doc is a bit easier.
16:14:14 <kirkwood> +1 to Google doc for scratch pad
16:19:39 <Wilco> TOPIC: Goals of the subgroup
16:19:48 <Wilco> Shadi: My feeling is that we often confuse conformance and compliance.
16:20:09 <bruce_bailey> +1 for distinguishing between conformance and compliance
16:20:28 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
16:20:35 <Wilco> ... Some policies basically say "do WCAG", and we end up having policy discussions.
16:21:48 <Wilco> ... The idea from this document was that there are technical standards, technical guidance, and advisory
16:22:50 <Wilco> ... In the previous subgroup we had consensus (not the working group) on these examples.
16:23:04 <Wilco> ... There was also a draft of how could technical standards contribute to the situation.
16:23:28 <Wilco> ... For example, maybe a standard could define the severity of certain issues.
16:24:05 <Wilco> ... Then beyond the technical standard there could be additional guidance, for example good practices on an accessibility statement
16:25:00 <Wilco> ... And then there are maybe considerations of what policies could do. Depending on relative priority, maybe the threshold of how many bugs are acceptable is different in a healthcare situation from an entertainment situation.
16:25:12 <Wilco> ... One comment from Gregg in a previous cool stood out for me.
16:25:49 <Wilco> ... We spend a lot of time on harmonising guidelines. But we haven't spent so much time helping policy makers consider.
16:26:10 <Wilco> ... We know there are hardly any website meet everything fully, but does that mean they are not compliant, and are they not compliant to the same degree?
16:26:44 <Wilco> ... We're not telling policy makers how to create policy. But from a technical perspective, what can we build into WCAG 3 to enable policy makers to address issues that occur in real live.
16:26:48 <Wilco> s/live/life
16:27:30 <Wilco> ... The subgroup came up with 11 situations, with on average 2 or 3 examples.
16:28:10 <Wilco> ... My proposal for this subgroup is that we continue the work; Go through the situations 1 by 1.
16:28:35 <Wilco> ... We'll review each of the situations, and come up with ideas of what could be done.
16:28:50 <Wilco> ... What I saw from that wiki was that there's a lot of overlap
16:29:13 <Wilco> ... We can try out one situation together, and then assign some homework.
16:29:37 <Wilco> ... We'll have in 3 or 4 weeks a list of what could be done. I don't want to go back too much on the situations though.
16:30:03 <Wilco> ... And then in the later half of the subgroup work, I hope we can come out with a outline for a guidance document for policy makers.
16:30:27 <Wilco> ... Two parts; What should AGWG consider regarding conformance, and the second; what should policy makers consider when adopting WCAG
16:30:34 <bruce_bailey> q+ to ask about scope for "policy makers"
16:31:13 <Wilco> Bruce: I was happy with everything, until you said "laws".
16:31:31 <Wilco> ... When we're talking about organisations, that's very broad. If we're talking about laws, that's much narrower.
16:32:29 <Wilco> ... I don't have much regulation perspective. I'm also not clear what the difference is between writing clearly and writing anything of special value to policy makers vs regulators & litigators
16:33:51 <Wilco> Shadi: Short answer is I don't know. If we need to define the audience more narrowly we can work on that.
16:34:13 <wendyreid> q+
16:34:25 <bruce_bailey> "technical implications for adopting wcag"
16:34:32 <bruce_bailey> q-
16:34:38 <Wilco> ... From a technical perspective, when we're saying what the technical considerations are, is there a substantial difference between the policy of an organisation or in law.
16:34:53 <Wilco> ... Scale is different, but from a technical perspective is there a big difference?
16:35:20 <Wilco> Wendy: It would be weird to see some of these things.
16:36:46 <Wilco> ... The web has many different uses. Just saying "follow this" isn't useful. Giving specific ways and guidance is useful.
16:37:15 <Wilco> Bruce: I think there's a different threshold as soon as its about laws.
16:37:35 <Wilco> ... It's certainly a problem in federal space. I'm not sure how WCAG could help with that.
16:38:35 <Wilco> ... One thing this use case document does is highlight all the different words; regulator, policy maker, etc. This uses those words interchengably. I want to get a handle of that.
16:38:53 <Wilco> Shadi: Would you be interested to help draft a disclaimer? What we're doing, and what we're not doing.
16:39:19 <Wilco> ... We're not telling regulators, policy makers, what to put into their documents. We don't tell law makers how to write laws.
16:39:35 <bruce_bailey> bruce also voluntold for disclaimer for this docuement
16:39:59 <Wilco> ... It's the technical considerations. What about timelines, what happens when acquiring a company, what happens if you host other's content.
16:40:43 <Wilco> ... This is often an area of sensitivity.
16:40:53 <Wilco> Bruce: Yes, happy to try to write this disclaimer.
16:41:11 <Wilco> ... I think I understand WCAG 3 to be charged to saying something to policy makers though? That's the conundrum.
16:41:25 <Wilco> Shadi: There's WCAG 3 as the standard, and then there's the package. The methods, understanding, etc.
16:42:33 <Wilco> ... Maybe we come out with certain suggestions / considerations for WCAG 3 conformance? Maybe not? But at the very least we should come up with guidance to help policy makers.
16:43:11 <Wilco> Laura: I have some concerns for supplying loopholes to organisations for making something accessible.
16:43:26 <wendyreid> q+
16:43:45 <Wilco> Shadi: Absolutely, these aren't loopholes. There are overal considerations, these exist.
16:44:16 <Wilco> John: I'm having a difficult time with what the problem we're trying to solve really is.
16:44:48 <bruce_bailey> q+ to ask Laura if "conformance loophole" is already in one the documents we have looked at today?
16:45:09 <Wilco> ... Policy often changes in accordance with what the burden is.
16:45:22 <Wilco> ... If we're going to give tools to policy makers, that's one thing.
16:45:32 <bruce_bailey> +1 to john kirkwood
16:45:41 <Wilco> Shadi: There's a problem description in the use cases document.
16:46:07 <bruce_bailey> policy writer tool kit is a provocative idea
16:46:14 <Wilco> ... The problem we're trying to address is that scenario Wendy mentions. "Do WCAG". No website really meets that. Is that a realistic expectation?
16:46:50 <Wilco> Wendy: I think there's two ways to view this.
16:46:51 <shadi> ack wendy
16:47:25 <Wilco> ... We can go back to AGWG and say there are gaps that may need to be filled. The other direction is down to the end uers.
16:47:40 <Wilco> ... I don't think anyone wants to create loopholes. What I think we can do is point to who's responsible for what.
16:48:03 <bruce_bailey> +1 to help scope out "who is responsible for what"
16:48:31 <Wilco> ... For example a website with many authors. One solution is training, another may be with the CMS provider.
16:49:01 <Wilco> ... There should always be someone who's responsible. The site owner needs to find a solution.
16:49:28 <shadi> ack bruce
16:49:28 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask Laura if "conformance loophole" is already in one the documents we have looked at today?
16:49:56 <Wilco> Bruce: Laura, do we have that phrase?
16:50:07 <Wilco> Laura: I think third party is in the conformance section
16:50:20 <Wilco> Bruce: I hope that's not characterized as a loophole.
16:50:40 <Laura_Carlson> Notes for the Media Content Conformance Section of the WCAG 3 Editor's Draft
16:50:46 <Laura_Carlson> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t2vSTNI3qG2bWgSMsfIRUdPfZ7UzxunmO1JgeOZ9s2k/
16:51:12 <Wilco> Shadi: We broke down third party. There's a difference between an airline posting a video on YouTube, and a child posting a video there.
16:51:20 <bruce_bailey> q+ to mention "substantial conformance" is "not being conformance"
16:51:25 <shadi> present+ Mike
16:51:52 <Wilco> Mike: There are a lot of organisations stuck on WCAG 2.0.
16:52:17 <Wilco> ... We have to keep documents evergreen. Organisations should keep coming back for review.
16:52:19 <bruce_bailey> Mike Gifford from Zoom chat:  "Failings of WAI implementations on policy. - Stuck on WCAG 2.0 rather than ever-green approaches  - Lack of adoption of ATAG 2.0 - Lack of criteria geared for USA specific lawsuits."
16:52:28 <Wilco> ... Legislators don't seem to remember that.
16:52:45 <Wilco> ... I'm hoping ATAG will be part of this. Legislators need to think about the authoring tools.
16:53:12 <Wilco> ... I have yet to see a serious RFP for ATAG.
16:53:50 <Laura_Carlson> +1 to Mike
16:53:52 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/
16:53:53 <Wilco> ... In many cases this will be tested in the US courts. Nowhere else. How do we set this up for cases to be tried effectively.
16:54:27 <Wilco> Shadi: There are two situations in this dealing with the cascade of responsibilities.
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16:54:40 <Wilco> ... We need to consider the chain of responsibilities in web content.
16:54:45 <wendyreid> q+
16:55:05 <shadi> zakim, close queue
16:55:05 <Zakim> ok, shadi, the speaker queue is closed
16:55:16 <Wilco> Bruce: I wanted to mention that substantial conformance means non-conformance.
16:55:39 <Wilco> Shadi: I don't think we're trying to define conformance, substantial, partial.
16:55:53 <mgifford> Looking forward to that Bruce, thanks. Would love to get your thoughts on ATAG.
16:56:02 <Wilco> ... We might come out with suggestions. The more important part is guidance.
16:56:13 <shadi> ack wendy
16:56:23 <Wilco> Wendy: We have an example of this working. The European Accessibility Act.
16:56:38 <Wilco> ... There are separate requirements for Ebooks, readers, and retailers.
16:56:54 <Wilco> ... I'm not responsibility for the epub documents on our platform. The author is, and it's clearly defined.
16:56:58 <bruce_bailey> @wendy can you point to those separations spread out ?
16:57:08 <bruce_bailey> Sounds like a good approarch
16:57:10 <Wilco> ... We should be able to do that for everything.
16:57:47 <Wilco> Shadi: I feel the EAA has a lot of roles defined for physical products. It doesn't have that for services.
16:58:11 <kirkwood> interesing e- book approach
16:58:20 <Wilco> ... There will be a lot of detail to hash out.
16:58:47 <Wilco> TOPIC: Homework
16:58:55 <Wilco> Shadi: I'd like people to go through the use cases document
16:59:03 <shadi> https://w3c.github.io/silver/use-cases/
16:59:20 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
16:59:47 <mgifford> If we have questions or thoughts on the use cases document, do we leave thoughts in an issue queue or where?
17:00:01 <Wilco> ... Have a look at these  examples as well
17:00:04 <Wilco> q+
17:00:35 <mgifford> Looking forward to future calls Wilco.
17:01:14 <Laura_Carlson> Bye. Thanks everyone.
17:01:42 <Laura_Carlson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/15-wcag3-policy-minutes.html Laura_Carlson
17:02:20 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes public
17:02:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', shadi.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:06:04 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs public
17:06:11 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/15-wcag3-policy-minutes.html shadi
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