14:07:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:07:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-irc
14:07:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:07:25 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
14:07:31 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG weekly meeting
14:07:59 <pchampin> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f2add3af-6743-4f52-8fcc-4f62c6cdd8af/20230511T120000/#agenda
14:07:59 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:07:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Hartig, Olaf (alternate: Williams, Gregory)
14:07:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/05/04-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:07:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Status of "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD)
14:08:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Use Case Proposals
14:08:02 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
14:08:05 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at  -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
14:08:08 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
14:08:44 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/05/04-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:08:54 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/05/25-rdf-star-minutes.html
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15:51:23 <gtw> FYI I will be travelling next week and so unable to scribe. I tried looking at the scribe list to know who would be next in line, but it seems not to have been updated in a few weeks. Maybe Ruben?
15:51:37 <ktk> ok tnx will check it out
15:51:40 <ktk> ah
15:51:46 <ktk> next week is public holiday in many parts anyway
15:51:50 <ktk> I think we will skip that
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15:59:00 <gkellogg_> zakim, who's here?
15:59:00 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
15:59:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see olaf, pfps, gkellogg_, RRSAgent, Zakim, ghurlbot, driib, agendabot, csarven, VladimirAlexiev, Timothe, Tpt, ktk, rhiaro, gtw, pchampin
15:59:06 <gkellogg_> present+
15:59:41 <olaf> present+
15:59:57 <ktk> present+
16:00:23 <gtw> present+
16:00:30 <Timothe> present+
16:00:55 <ktk> Zakim, show agenda
16:00:55 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:00:55 <Zakim> 1. Scribe: Hartig, Olaf (alternate: Williams, Gregory) [from agendabot]
16:00:55 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/05/04-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:00:55 <Zakim> 3. Status of "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) [from agendabot]
16:00:55 <Zakim> 4. Use Case Proposals [from agendabot]
16:00:55 <Zakim> 5. Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 [from agendabot]
16:00:55 <Zakim> 6. Review of pull requests, available at  -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 [from agendabot]
16:00:55 <Zakim> 7. Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting [from agendabot]
16:01:04 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:01:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Hartig, Olaf (alternate: Williams, Gregory) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:01:17 <ktk> Scribe: olaf:
16:01:19 <ktk> Scribe: olaf
16:01:25 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:01:30 <ktk> Zakim, close item 1
16:01:30 <Zakim> agendum 1, Scribe: Hartig, Olaf (alternate: Williams, Gregory), closed
16:01:31 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:01:31 <Zakim> 2. Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/05/04-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
16:01:36 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:02:14 <Dominik_T> present+
16:02:24 <Tpt> present+
16:02:48 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:02:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:03:05 <AZ> present+
16:03:59 <ktk> Regrets: Ora
16:04:16 <TallTed> present+
16:04:40 <ktk> Tpt: I don't see you on zoom
16:04:47 <AndyS> present+
16:05:05 <Tpt> Sorry I am not in the zoom yet, I should be able to connect in a few minutes
16:05:11 <olaf> ktk: review of last week's agenda. Any comments?
16:05:13 <pfps> present+
16:05:14 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
16:06:11 <olaf> ktk: confusion in the discussion board
16:06:20 <olaf> ... because there are two numbers
16:06:32 <olaf> ... the issue number itself and some other number
16:07:23 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:09:13 <TallTed> +1 approve minutes
16:09:20 <olaf> ktk: when closing issues in IRC, use the complete URL  from the discussion board
16:09:21 <ktk> +1
16:09:23 <gkellogg_> +1
16:09:25 <Timothe> +1
16:09:27 <olaf> +1
16:09:27 <Dominik_T> +1
16:09:30 <AZ> +1
16:09:31 <pfps> +1 to accepting minute
16:09:37 <pfps> s/minute/minutes/
16:09:48 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes
16:09:55 <ktk> Zakim, close item
16:09:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', ktk
16:10:01 <ktk> Zakim, close item 2
16:10:01 <Zakim> agendum 2, Approval of last week's minutes:  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/05/04-rdf-star-minutes.html, closed
16:10:03 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:10:03 <Zakim> 3. Status of "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) [from agendabot]
16:10:12 <ktk> zakim, open item 3
16:10:12 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Status of "First Public Working Draft" (FPWD) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:43 <olaf> ktk: any updates on the FPWDs?
16:11:04 <olaf> AndyS: docs are ready to go, waiting for pchampin
16:11:20 <olaf> gkellogg_: yes
16:11:32 <olaf> ... but be prepared for last-minute changes
16:11:55 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/respec/discussions/4445
16:11:55 <olaf> ktk: I asked on the discussion board of respec
16:12:12 <olaf> ... whether one can ping specific versions of respec
16:12:12 <gkellogg_> q+
16:12:29 <olaf> gkellogg_: yes, we need to be aware of that
16:12:55 <olaf> ... there are important changes in these versions
16:13:03 <ktk> ack gkellogg_
16:13:22 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:13:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Use Case Proposals -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:24 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:13:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:13:43 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:14:09 <olaf> ktk: proposal was to pfps a chance to talk about the progress on the use cases
16:14:15 <TallTed> scribe- olaf:
16:14:25 <olaf> pfps: not much progress
16:14:30 <TallTed> chair: ktk
16:14:39 <AndyS> q+
16:14:52 <olaf> ... releven group has a use case that they want to work out
16:14:56 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:14:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:15:14 <olaf> ... hopefully ready within the next couple of days
16:15:31 <olaf> ktk: which repo?
16:15:42 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr
16:15:50 <AndyS> (was it announced?)
16:15:52 <olaf> pfps: I added a PR to the main repo to remove the issue about the use case
16:16:03 <AndyS> q-
16:16:16 <TallTed> s/Scribe: olaf://
16:16:26 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:16:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:16:34 <olaf> ... want to have a first well-developed use case in that repo before announcing the repo
16:17:05 <olaf> ... would keep the item on the agenda for next week
16:17:14 <gkellogg_> q?
16:17:17 <olaf> ... in case there are noteworthy changes
16:17:27 <AndyS> q+
16:17:37 <TallTed> s/last week's agenda. Any comments/last week's minutes. Any comments/
16:17:38 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:17:38 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ktk
16:17:53 <olaf> AndyS: we have agenda items for outstanding actions and PRs, but none for issues
16:17:55 <TallTed> ack AndyS
16:18:07 <olaf> ... we should cover them in the next agenda item
16:18:14 <TallTed> Zakim, next item
16:18:14 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of open actions, available at  -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:19:00 <olaf> ktk: question to pchampin about TPAC but he is not here
16:19:22 <olaf> AZ: no remark on my issue
16:20:25 <olaf> ... option: we define partial conformance to RDF 1.2
16:20:34 <olaf> ... option 1: ??
16:20:45 <olaf> ... Didn't get feedback on the options.
16:21:01 <olaf> ... partial would be explicitly defined.
16:21:07 <AndyS> q+
16:21:24 <olaf> ... I would like to get more feedback, on the list or in the issue
16:21:44 <olaf> AndyS: I would find it easier if there was a draft to provide comments on.
16:22:05 <AndyS> ack me
16:22:12 <olaf> AZ: problem is that there are two issues that are tightly related
16:22:35 <olaf> ... two actions not issues
16:23:08 <olaf> ... issue 19 and issue 23
16:23:22 <olaf> ktk: talk to Ora and decide on which one to close
16:23:42 <olaf> gkellogg_: they can be assigned to both of you
16:24:13 <gkellogg_> s/gkellogg_/TallTed/
16:24:23 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:24:23 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Review of pull requests, available at  -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:24:29 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/9 and https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Text-Direction-Proposal (draft - for now, consider it an "existence proof" of solution)
16:25:06 <olaf> AndyS: I took up the discussion up to a certain point and drafted it in a wiki page
16:25:15 <olaf> ... to have somethign concrete
16:26:03 <olaf> ... in order to give everyone a sense of what the issue/effort is when taking up the issue
16:26:13 <olaf> ... of putting text direction support in RDF
16:26:26 <gkellogg_> q+
16:26:35 <olaf> ... We need a formal resolution to take up that work
16:26:56 <olaf> ... We may at least do a strawpoll
16:26:56 <TallTed> q+ to note it is a worthwhile thing, but a substantial effort touching (almost?) every doc in our queue
16:27:12 <pfps> q+ to ask what the resolution is
16:27:28 <olaf> gkellogg_: Some people have noted that this hits every implementation, every serialization format, etc.
16:27:38 <olaf> ... So, it is a quite consequential change
16:28:10 <AndyS> q+
16:28:10 <olaf> ... It opens up RDF to a large part of the world
16:28:13 <ktk> Chair: ktk
16:28:28 <olaf> ... unfortunate that unicode does not provide that
16:28:48 <AndyS> ack gkellogg_
16:28:53 <olaf> ... we came up with an informative mechanism in ... group
16:29:17 <AndyS> ack TallTed
16:29:17 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to note it is a worthwhile thing, but a substantial effort touching (almost?) every doc in our queue
16:29:30 <olaf> TallTed: Concerned about the amount of work involved in this
16:29:44 <olaf> ... fear that this opens a big can of worms
16:30:07 <ktk> ack pfps
16:30:07 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to ask what the resolution is
16:30:19 <olaf> ... not standing in the way but people who want to pick this up will have a lot of work to do
16:30:29 <olaf> pfps: agree
16:30:32 <pfps> q-
16:30:43 <olaf> AndyS: Respect the concerns
16:30:58 <olaf> ... we work in the context of the wider W3C context
16:31:00 <gkellogg_> q+
16:31:07 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:31:13 <pfps> my worry is that this is significant work for implementers so it may end up splitting RDF 1.2 classis
16:31:28 <olaf> ... if we don't pick it up, we have to defend why not
16:31:49 <olaf> ... there are complicated cases, languages with multiple scripts
16:31:59 <ktk> q+
16:32:28 <ktk> ack gkellogg_
16:32:34 <gkellogg_> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/main/docs/text-direction.md#the-i18n-namespace
16:32:35 <olaf> ... in the wiki page I tried to outline the impacts on the different specs (e.g., SPARQL, Turtle)
16:32:59 <olaf> gkellogg_: there are a couple of examples
16:33:09 <pfps> afer spending a lot of time on this issue I'm still confused as to what exactly has to be done by RDF
16:33:15 <olaf> ... possibility to leverage datatype
16:33:25 <AndyS> q+
16:33:36 <olaf> ... in SPARQL
16:33:45 <olaf> ... wouldn't change surface syntax
16:34:13 <olaf> ... contained to fewer areas of our specs
16:34:18 <TallTed> s/RDF 1.2 classis/RDF 1.2 classic/
16:34:20 <olaf> ktk: I am also much confused
16:34:25 <ktk> ack ktk
16:34:36 <olaf> ... we should understand what is specific to RDF in this work
16:35:03 <olaf> AndyS: point at the moment is not to discuss possible solutions but to decide whether we take it up
16:35:30 <olaf> ... in W3C to get to REC we need horizontal review, ITC is one of them
16:35:44 <olaf> ... they have offered to help
16:36:06 <TallTed> s/ITC/I18n/
16:36:36 <olaf> ktk: proposal or strawpoll?
16:36:47 <ktk> Standardize text direction for RDF 1.2 (and related specs)
16:37:31 <TallTed> s/Standardize/draft proposal: Standardize/
16:38:03 <gkellogg_> rdf-concepts#9
16:38:03 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/9 -> Issue 9 text direction (gkellogg) i18n-tracker, needs discussion, spec:substantive
16:38:16 <ktk> Accept RDF-Concepts issue #9: text direction
16:38:16 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/9 -> Issue 9 ambiguity of canonical N-Triples (pchampin) complete
16:39:46 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Accept RDF-Concepts issue "text direction" https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/9
16:40:00 <gkellogg_> +1
16:40:01 <ktk> +1
16:40:03 <Dominik_T> +1
16:40:07 <AndyS> +1
16:40:07 <gtw> +1
16:40:10 <Timothe> +1
16:40:11 <TallTed> +0.5
16:40:16 <olaf> +0
16:40:27 <pfps> -0 as this still appears to commit the wg to produce something
16:40:28 <AZ> +0
16:40:36 <Tpt> +1
16:41:07 <olaf> ktk: Do wee need majority?
16:41:22 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Accept RDF-Concepts issue "text direction" https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/9
16:41:30 <olaf> TallTed: If there is no -1 and a substantial number of +1 then it is accepted
16:41:38 <olaf> s/wee/we/
16:42:00 <olaf> Andys: I would find it easier to have an online discussion about it.
16:42:32 <olaf> ktk: let's look at the PRs now
16:42:46 <pfps> q+
16:43:27 <olaf> Dominik_T: I would like to change the HTML to be better visible in mobile phones and small devices
16:43:28 <AndyS> ack me
16:43:45 <olaf> ... I will change the CSS a bit
16:43:56 <olaf> ... in the PR
16:44:03 <olaf> ... will do that tomorrow
16:44:27 <olaf> pfps: changes to CSS can do a lot of things
16:44:41 <TallTed> q+
16:44:50 <gkellogg_> q+
16:44:51 <olaf> ... thse PRs causes a lot of discussion / waste of time
16:45:07 <ktk> ack pfps
16:45:12 <olaf> ... would have been better as an issue for the group to discuss rather than lots of PRs
16:45:18 <AndyS> ack TallTed
16:45:37 <olaf> TallTed: I agree, should better be an issue first and then tested as a PR on one repo
16:46:05 <olaf> ... instead of PRs in all repos at the same time
16:46:51 <olaf> pfps: I don't know the syntax of CSS to understand whether the change is substantial
16:46:56 <ktk> ack gkellogg_
16:47:18 <olaf> gkellogg_: regarding the markup problem, I was looking at the results of the build which had issues
16:48:19 <olaf> ... regarding making many PRs about CSS for lots of repos, it is a problem that the discussion is all over the place now and that tables are used in different ways in the different specs
16:48:50 <olaf> ... generally, this is about accessibility, which we may have to look at
16:48:53 <AndyS> q+
16:48:58 <ktk> ack AndyS
16:49:11 <olaf> ... accessibility issues are often uncovered during the wider reviewer
16:49:35 <olaf> AndyS: this PR (for SPARQL) I would like to be merged
16:49:53 <olaf> ... because long-standing PRs are difficult to work on
16:49:56 <pfps> q+ to mention that the last version I saw made things worse in my opinion
16:50:04 <olaf> ... but I request to avoid breaks within words
16:50:07 <AndyS> ack me
16:50:31 <olaf> pfps: I don't want this PR merged in the smenatics doc
16:50:37 <TallTed> q+
16:50:40 <olaf> ... because it breaks within words
16:51:03 <ktk> ack pfps
16:51:04 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to mention that the last version I saw made things worse in my opinion
16:51:08 <ktk> ack TallTed
16:51:25 <olaf> TallTed: There is a requested change in this PR for the semantics doc
16:51:41 <olaf> ... 'break-word' has been deprecated
16:53:19 <olaf> ... If you apply my change request, pfps' issue about the breaking of words will be resolved
16:53:19 <olaf> ktk: can you apply that?
16:53:19 <olaf> Dominik_T: yes
16:53:19 <olaf> ktk: only apply it to the semantics doc first
16:53:50 <olaf> pfps: changes to common things like CSS need to be done very carefully
16:53:52 <AndyS> The most demanding SPARQL effect is the grammar in query. We can treat it specially.
16:54:06 <TallTed> +1 fix rdf-semantics#30, and upon approval, replicate to the other CSS PRs
16:54:07 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/30 -> Pull Request 30 improve display on mobile phones (domel) needs discussion
16:54:09 <olaf> ktk: propose to apply it only to the semantics doc first
16:54:40 <olaf> ... Thursday next week is a public holiday in Europe
16:54:55 <olaf> AndyS: May 18?
16:54:58 <olaf> ktk: yes
16:55:01 <AZ> 18th of May is holiday in France
16:55:12 <olaf> AndyS: not a public holiday in the UK
16:55:29 <olaf> TallTed: yes on the 18th, not 25th
16:55:38 <pfps> I will be travelling on the 18th
16:55:44 <olaf> gtw: not here next week
16:55:53 <gkellogg_> I'm here on the 18th, not on the 25th
16:56:01 <olaf> Timothe: I will be here
16:56:08 <olaf> AZ: not here
16:56:23 <olaf> Dominik_T: on holiday next week
16:56:38 <TallTed> q+ to quickly observe conflict tomorrow, between RDF-star Semantics TF and RDF C14n Special Topic call
16:56:56 <olaf> ktk: propose to skip next week
16:57:09 <TallTed> regrets for me 2023-05-25
16:57:30 <olaf> ... and those who won't be here on the 25th, please log your regrets in the IRC
16:57:53 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:00:03 <TallTed> i/Thursday next week/topic: next meeting/
17:01:17 <TallTed> i|let's look at the PRs now|topic: Open PRs https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4/
17:01:24 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:02:28 <TallTed> zakim, end meeting
17:02:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gkellogg_, olaf, ktk, gtw, Timothe, Dominik_T, Tpt, AZ, TallTed, AndyS, pfps
17:02:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:02:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/11-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
17:03:06 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:03:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:03:06 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
17:03:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items