Meeting minutes
liisamk: Would you like to walk us through what you shared, sebastian?
sebastian: [sharing screen]
<liisamk> link to doc: https://
sebastian: This is a draft, everyone is free to comment
… wanted to provide some structure to the report
sebastian: This is just where I tried to structure the problem space
… we can go through the document and decide if its accurate
… and we need use cases
… much of this is coming from discussions I've had outside of this group and in the group
… looked for examples of things online
… it would be helpful to have more
… starting with page one
… [reviewing the first page]
… Abstract, just the three paragraphs
… [reads abstract]
ivan: Question to Wendy and Liisa, you're closer to the business, the use case mentioned is valid
… isn't it correct that we also have the case where someone might resell the same content, but under false name or pretense?
… inverse use case where the content is the same but sold under a different name
liisamk: That's correct, sold under a false publisher or author
sebastian: I have the variants here, listing a few use cases
… 4.1, could have different names or publisher
… or the example in 5.1
wendyreid: That's not fraud, it's third-party resale of paperback content
liisamk: It's a different case
… there is legal and legitimate resale of print content
… but there is fraud too
sebastian: We'll need to make this distinction in the document
liisamk: I might be able to get someone in legal to help with this
sebastian: [opens twitter thread], this is an experience from the author
ivan: Let's not get too sidetracked
… abstract is too restrictive, and we usually finalize it when the rest of the document is complete
… perhaps this is where the lawyer can help us, what are the legally fraudulent cases?
… cases for the purpose of this specification
… we don't want to be imprecise
liisamk: Agreed, from a legal perspective, and a copyright one, there is a bizarre twist where it is likely the seller of fraudulent content is less at legal risk to not do anything about it, the minute they address it, it becomes risk
… that is different from country to country
wendyreid: We need to be careful about scope, we can specify guidance for ebooks, but won't likely be able to do anything about fraudulent print distribution
sebastian: Informing publishers about fraudulent covers or metadata could be in scope
ivan: It depends on what the scope is of the document, not just the metadata
… we'll see it later
… getting into the area of printed books might be a stretch
liisamk: Perhaps we can keep in mind whether this methodology might apply to print on demand titls
… as POD becomes more of the business
… that part of the business is expanding exponentially
… everyone is looking for answers to help with shipping/warehousing issues
… the files used for those printings being out there more
… more opportunity for fraud
sebastian: [example from print] the author had pictures and proof of the differences
… the ISCC would be generated for the cover image wouldn't match, it could trigger an alert
… I would like to add some more to the status of the document
… not a legal evaluation of the facts
liisamk: Something to say we're not doing anything legally binding
sebastian: [drafts] we'll get a lawyer to review
… for the abstract, I think we have the main use case covered
ivan: I will add a comment
sebastian: [introduction]
… [adding a terminology section]
… [reviewing the terminology proposed]
… [variants section]
wendyreid: We'll want to mention the variations within 5.1
sebastian: [adding note]
wendyreid: For 5.2, the books are most often free right?
liisamk: Yeah, that was a trend for a while, with the rest of the content behind a fraudulent paywall
… it's more commonly used on etsy
wendyreid: It's easier to detect a paypal link
ivan: In the journal world, this is often what publishers do
… or in newspapers
… we have to be careful of how to communicate
wendyreid: There's a context of trust, if I'm on nytimes.com and get asked to pay to continue I get it, not on my ereader
ivan: True but it's important to be mindful of
sebastian: [edits]
… 5.3 publication of fraudulent content
… using original cover images or metadata to sell different fraudulent content
… 5.3.1 book published with same cover and metadata, but description suggests using the book as a diary
… screenshot of an original product and it's fraudulent copy
liisamk: This is fraud of the cover
… branding and author identity used to sell the book]
sebastian: also the best seller marks and associated info
… a use case where we could inform the publisher of an issue, the cover image matches
… compare the declarations
ivan: Question I have, is there another or other types of counterfeiting?
liisamk: There's also the totally different classic book behind a cover
… there's altered content
… particularly on diet books
… take most of a cover, make it unique, plagiarize small bits of our book, but have someone else writing their own diet plan
… partial plagiarization
… lots of research and back and forth, what should be done with them
… the other party will argue their content is legitimate
wendyreid: Bleeds into fair use possibly?
liisamk: Yes, but we've been tracking cases
… we have a number of different cases
sebastian: What I find interesting, we have this assumption the fraudulent content would need some kind of perceptive trigger to be interesting to customers
… in all of these cases
… all cases use known and established branding from authors or publishers
liisamk: In the midst of this conversation, I just got a fraud notice I've been looking at
sebastian: Maybe we can use some of the examples you have
… next section is the means of offering fraudulent content
… 6.1 use of original or manipulated cover image
… 6.1.1 example
… same image or slightly modified
… 6.2 use or manipulation of original metadata
wendyreid: Is it more often publisher or author name manipulation
liisamk: Both
… different page counts
… author, brand, page count, description
… all slightly modified
… metadata is more about how people are skirting by the checks
… that detect something being a duplicate
… or change after the fact, use the wrong author name to get it in the store, then adjsut
sebastian: We need to add more then
… third party sellers complicate this
… 7 is the methodology section
… changes after upload to avoid detection
… [reading section 7.1]
… [section 8]
… counter measures
… raising awareness, research, collaboration with retailers/publishers
liisamk: It's hard to know, some uncertainty about communicating, a potential PR issue
wendyreid: Getting this from author's associations might be the best approach
sebastian: Publishers associations can assist with providing the leverage to report
liisamk: The retailers are trying, it's just a challenge to get ahead of
… awareness is good
sebastian: Research, conducted by publishers and author associations
wendyreid: Getting research is key for us to fix this problem
sebastian: collaboration - this is our final suggestion
… reach out to platforms to figure out what can be easily done
… section 9, goals of the group and countermeasures
… faster discovery of fraudulent content
… faster response
liisamk: One of the things our counter measures do is make it easier for partners detect before things make it to market
wendyreid: providing preventative solutions as opposed to reactive ones
sebastian: The EU copyright directive, to help give platforms knowledge of copyrighted content
… [section 10]
… requirements would be to make declarations of original content, access to recent content listings
… verification of content
liisamk: This is a great framework
… I can go back and find examples and things
… need to work on this section
… from a business perspective, how do we solve this
… need buy in to do some testing
… we have a meeting in 1 week
liisamk: Need to get back on the right bi-weekly schedule
sebastian: Question, I have two hats, ISCC foundation, everything I have mentioned in the document, but I also work on a solution as an entrepreneur, my solution is an option
… I don't want to deal with people saying I've not disclosed