IRC log of publishingcg on 2023-05-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:02:03 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #publishingcg
- 13:02:07 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-publishingcg-irc
- 13:02:37 [liisamk]
- Meeting: Publishing BG/CG Anti-Counterfeit TF
- 13:03:05 [liisamk]
- Date: 05 May 2023
- 13:03:17 [liisamk]
- Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley
- 13:04:32 [wendyreid]
- scribe+
- 13:04:35 [sebastian]
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- 13:04:53 [ivan]
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- 13:05:04 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Would you like to walk us through what you shared, sebastian?
- 13:05:12 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [sharing screen]
- 13:05:55 [liisamk]
- link to doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nvu7EajtBlFnRsD-L2MXLNSUaxGQ5djb9CwE-l7Oz9g/edit#
- 13:05:57 [wendyreid]
- ... This is a draft, everyone is free to comment
- 13:06:08 [wendyreid]
- ... wanted to provide some structure to the reprot
- 13:06:15 [wendyreid]
- s/reprot/report
- 13:06:27 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: This is just where I tried to structure the problem space
- 13:06:29 [ivan]
- present+
- 13:06:37 [wendyreid]
- ... we can go through the document and decide if its accurate
- 13:06:43 [wendyreid]
- ... and we need use cases
- 13:07:05 [wendyreid]
- ... much of this is coming from discussions I've had outside of this group and in the group
- 13:07:15 [wendyreid]
- ... looked for examples of things online
- 13:07:32 [wendyreid]
- ... it would be helpful to have more
- 13:07:38 [wendyreid]
- ... starting with page one
- 13:08:29 [wendyreid]
- ... [reviewing the first page]
- 13:08:46 [wendyreid]
- ... Abstract, just the three paragraphs
- 13:08:57 [wendyreid]
- ... [reads abstract]
- 13:10:20 [wendyreid]
- ivan: Question to Wendy and Liisa, you're closer to the business, the use case mentioned is valid
- 13:10:50 [wendyreid]
- ... isn't it correct that we also have the case where someone might resell the same content, but under false name or pretense?
- 13:11:26 [wendyreid]
- ... inverse use case where the content is the same but sold under a different name
- 13:11:37 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: That's correct, sold under a false publisher or author
- 13:11:52 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: I have the variants here, listing a few use cases
- 13:12:27 [wendyreid]
- ... 4.1, could have different names or publisher
- 13:13:24 [wendyreid]
- ... or the example in 5.1
- 13:13:45 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: That's not fraud, it's third-party resale of paperback content
- 13:13:53 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: It's a different case
- 13:14:12 [wendyreid]
- ... there is legal and legitimate resale of print content
- 13:14:19 [wendyreid]
- ... but there is fraud too
- 13:14:42 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: We'll need to make this distinction in the document
- 13:14:54 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: I might be able to get someone in legal to help with this
- 13:15:28 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [opens twitter thread], this is an experience from the author
- 13:15:41 [wendyreid]
- ivan: Let's not get too sidetracked
- 13:16:02 [wendyreid]
- ... abstract is too restrictive, and we usually finalize it when the rest of the document is complete
- 13:16:46 [wendyreid]
- ... perhaps this is where the lawyer can help us, what are the legally fraudulent cases?
- 13:16:55 [wendyreid]
- ... cases for the purpose of this specification
- 13:17:05 [wendyreid]
- ... we don't want to be imprecise
- 13:17:49 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Agreed, from a legal perspective, and a copyright one, there is a bizarre twist where it is likely the seller of fraudulent content is less at legal risk to not do anything about it, the minute they address it, it becomes risk
- 13:17:59 [wendyreid]
- ... that is different from country to country
- 13:19:36 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: We need to be careful about scope, we can specify guidance for ebooks, but won't likely be able to do anything about fraudulent print distribution
- 13:19:59 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: Informing publishers about fraudulent covers or metadata could be in scope
- 13:20:14 [wendyreid]
- ivan: It depends on what the scope is of the document, not just the metadata
- 13:20:18 [wendyreid]
- ...we'll see it later
- 13:20:29 [wendyreid]
- ... getting into the area of printed books might be a stretch
- 13:20:48 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Perhaps we can keep in mind whether this methodology might apply to print on demand titls
- 13:20:59 [wendyreid]
- ... as POD becomes more of the business
- 13:21:16 [wendyreid]
- ... that part of the business is expanding exponentially
- 13:21:32 [wendyreid]
- ... everyone is looking for answers to help with shipping/warehousing issues
- 13:21:44 [wendyreid]
- ... the files used for those printings being out there more
- 13:21:52 [wendyreid]
- ... more opportunity for fraud
- 13:22:30 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [example from print] the author had pictures and proof of the differences
- 13:22:57 [wendyreid]
- ... the ISCC would be generated for the cover image wouldn't match, it could trigger an alert
- 13:23:21 [wendyreid]
- ... I would like to add some more to the status of the document
- 13:23:28 [wendyreid]
- ... not a legal evaluation of the facts
- 13:24:21 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Something to say we're not doing anything legally binding
- 13:24:53 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [drafts] we'll get a lawyer to review
- 13:25:23 [wendyreid]
- ... for the abstract, I think we have the main use case covered
- 13:25:55 [wendyreid]
- ivan: I will add a comment
- 13:26:44 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [introduction]
- 13:27:44 [wendyreid]
- ... [adding a terminology section]
- 13:28:27 [wendyreid]
- ... [reviewing the terminology proposed]
- 13:28:52 [wendyreid]
- ... [variants section]
- 13:30:05 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: We'll want to mention the variations within 5.1
- 13:30:12 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [adding note]
- 13:31:23 [tzviya]
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- 13:31:37 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: For 5.2, the books are most often free right?
- 13:31:58 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Yeah, that was a trend for a while, with the rest of the content behind a fraudulent paywall
- 13:32:03 [wendyreid]
- ... it's more commonly used on etsy
- 13:32:31 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: It's easier to detect a paypal link
- 13:32:46 [wendyreid]
- ivan: In the journal world, this is often what publishers do
- 13:32:54 [wendyreid]
- ... or in newspapers
- 13:33:09 [wendyreid]
- ... we have to be careful of how to communicate
- 13:34:15 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: There's a context of trust, if I'm on nytimes.com and get asked to pay to continue I get it, not on my ereader
- 13:34:23 [wendyreid]
- ivan: True but it's important to be mindful of
- 13:34:29 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: [edits]
- 13:34:47 [wendyreid]
- ... 5.3 publication of fraudulent content
- 13:35:02 [wendyreid]
- ... using original cover images or metadata to sell different fraudulent content
- 13:35:35 [wendyreid]
- ... 5.3.1 book published with same cover and metadata, but description suggests using the book as a diary
- 13:36:21 [wendyreid]
- ... screenshot of an original product and it's fraudulent copy
- 13:36:55 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: This is fraud of the cover
- 13:37:05 [wendyreid]
- ... branding and author identity used to sell the book]
- 13:37:16 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: also the best seller marks and associated info
- 13:37:40 [vince]
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- 13:37:40 [wendyreid]
- ... a use case where we could inform the publisher of an issue, the cover image matches
- 13:37:50 [wendyreid]
- ... compare the declarations
- 13:38:20 [wendyreid]
- ivan: Question I have, is there another or other types of counterfeiting?
- 13:38:36 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: There's also the totally different classic book behind a cover
- 13:38:43 [wendyreid]
- ... there's altered content
- 13:38:49 [wendyreid]
- ... particularly on diet books
- 13:39:23 [wendyreid]
- ... take most of a cover, make it unique, plagiarize small bits of our book, but have someone else writing their own diet plan
- 13:39:37 [wendyreid]
- ... partial plagiarization
- 13:39:50 [wendyreid]
- ... lots of research and back and forth, what should be done with them
- 13:39:58 [wendyreid]
- ... the other party will argue their content is legitimate
- 13:40:11 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: Bleeds into fair use possibly?
- 13:40:22 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Yes, but we've been tracking cases
- 13:40:30 [wendyreid]
- ... we have a number of different cases
- 13:41:02 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: What I find interesting, we have this assumption the fraudulent content would need some kind of perceptive trigger to be interesting to customers
- 13:41:07 [wendyreid]
- ... in all of these cases
- 13:41:33 [wendyreid]
- ... all cases use known and established branding from authors or publishers
- 13:41:59 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: In the midst of this conversation, I just got a fraud notice I've been looking at
- 13:42:35 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: Maybe we can use some of the examples you have
- 13:42:47 [wendyreid]
- ... next section is the means of offering fraudulent content
- 13:42:58 [wendyreid]
- ... 6.1 use of original or manipulated cover image
- 13:43:41 [wendyreid]
- ... 6.1.1 example
- 13:43:59 [wendyreid]
- ... same image or slightly modified
- 13:44:33 [wendyreid]
- ... 6.2 use or manipulation of original metadata
- 13:45:40 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: Is it more often publisher or author name manipulation
- 13:45:43 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Both
- 13:45:48 [wendyreid]
- ... different page counts
- 13:45:58 [wendyreid]
- ... author, brand, page count, description
- 13:46:07 [wendyreid]
- ... all slightly modified
- 13:46:21 [wendyreid]
- ... metadata is more about how people are skirting by the checks
- 13:46:34 [wendyreid]
- ... that detect something being a duplicate
- 13:46:56 [wendyreid]
- ... or change after the fact, use the wrong author name to get it in the store, then adjsut
- 13:47:05 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: We need to add more then
- 13:47:41 [wendyreid]
- ... third party sellers complicate this
- 13:47:52 [wendyreid]
- ... 7 is the methodology section
- 13:48:08 [wendyreid]
- ... changes after upload to avoid detection
- 13:48:34 [wendyreid]
- ... [reading section 7.1]
- 13:49:08 [wendyreid]
- ... [section 8]
- 13:49:14 [wendyreid]
- ... counter measures
- 13:49:43 [wendyreid]
- ... raising awareness, research, collaboration with retailers/publishers
- 13:50:37 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: It's hard to know, some uncertainty about communicating, a potential PR issue
- 13:51:26 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: Getting this from author's associations might be the best approach
- 13:51:52 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: Publishers associations can assist with providing the leverage to reprot
- 13:51:58 [wendyreid]
- s/reprot/report
- 13:52:16 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: The retailers are trying, it's just a challenge to get ahead of
- 13:52:35 [wendyreid]
- ... awareness is good
- 13:53:14 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: Research, conducted by publishers and author associations
- 13:54:28 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: Getting research is key for us to fix this problem
- 13:54:53 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: collaboration - this is our final suggestion
- 13:55:04 [wendyreid]
- ... reach out to platforms to figure out what can be easily done
- 13:55:20 [wendyreid]
- ... section 9, goals of the group and countermeasures
- 13:55:34 [wendyreid]
- ... faster discovery of fraudulent content
- 13:55:39 [wendyreid]
- ... faster response
- 13:56:22 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: One of the things our counter measures do is make it easier for partners detect before things make it to market
- 13:56:51 [wendyreid]
- wendyreid: providing preventative solutions as opposed to reactive ones
- 13:57:45 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: The EU copyright directive, to help give platforms knowledge of copyrighted content
- 13:57:53 [wendyreid]
- ... [section 10]
- 13:58:24 [wendyreid]
- ... requirements would be to make declarations of original content, access to recent content listings
- 13:58:29 [wendyreid]
- ... verification of content
- 13:58:51 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: This is a great framework
- 13:59:03 [wendyreid]
- ... I can go back and find examples and things
- 13:59:08 [wendyreid]
- ... need to work on this section
- 13:59:22 [wendyreid]
- ... from a business perspective, how do we solve this
- 13:59:29 [wendyreid]
- ... need buy in to do some testing
- 13:59:35 [wendyreid]
- ... we have a meeting in 2 weeks
- 13:59:51 [wendyreid]
- s/2 weeks/1 week
- 14:00:09 [wendyreid]
- liisamk: Need to get back on the right bi-weekly schedule
- 14:00:57 [wendyreid]
- sebastian: Question, I have two hats, ISCC foundation, everything I have mentioned in the document, but I also work on a solution as an entrepreneur, my solution is an option
- 14:01:16 [wendyreid]
- ... I don't want to deal with people saying I've not disclosed
- 14:02:38 [wendyreid]
- rrsagent, please draft minutes
- 14:02:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-publishingcg-minutes.html wendyreid
- 14:02:42 [wendyreid]
- present+
- 14:03:22 [wendyreid]
- zakim, end meeting
- 14:03:22 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been ivan, wendyreid
- 14:03:23 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
- 14:03:25 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-publishingcg-minutes.html Zakim
- 14:03:28 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 14:03:32 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #publishingcg
- 14:04:01 [wendyreid]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 14:04:34 [wendyreid]
- rrsagent, bye
- 14:04:34 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items