13:02:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #publishingcg
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13:02:37 <liisamk> Meeting: Publishing BG/CG Anti-Counterfeit TF
13:03:05 <liisamk> Date: 05 May 2023
13:03:17 <liisamk> Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley
13:04:32 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:04:35 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #publishingcg
13:04:53 <ivan> ivan has joined #publishingcg
13:05:04 <wendyreid> liisamk: Would you like to walk us through what you shared, sebastian?
13:05:12 <wendyreid> sebastian: [sharing screen]
13:05:55 <liisamk> link to doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nvu7EajtBlFnRsD-L2MXLNSUaxGQ5djb9CwE-l7Oz9g/edit#
13:05:57 <wendyreid> ... This is a draft, everyone is free to comment
13:06:08 <wendyreid> ... wanted to provide some structure to the reprot
13:06:15 <wendyreid> s/reprot/report
13:06:27 <wendyreid> sebastian: This is just where I tried to structure the problem space
13:06:29 <ivan> present+
13:06:37 <wendyreid> ... we can go through the document and decide if its accurate
13:06:43 <wendyreid> ... and we need use cases
13:07:05 <wendyreid> ... much of this is coming from discussions I've had outside of this group and in the group
13:07:15 <wendyreid> ... looked for examples of things online
13:07:32 <wendyreid> ... it would be helpful to have more
13:07:38 <wendyreid> ... starting with page one
13:08:29 <wendyreid> ... [reviewing the first page]
13:08:46 <wendyreid> ... Abstract, just the three paragraphs
13:08:57 <wendyreid> ... [reads abstract]
13:10:20 <wendyreid> ivan: Question to Wendy and Liisa, you're closer to the business, the use case mentioned is valid
13:10:50 <wendyreid> ... isn't it correct that we also have the case where someone might resell the same content, but under false name or pretense?
13:11:26 <wendyreid> ... inverse use case where the content is the same but sold under a different name
13:11:37 <wendyreid> liisamk: That's correct, sold under a false publisher or author
13:11:52 <wendyreid> sebastian: I have the variants here, listing a few use cases
13:12:27 <wendyreid> ... 4.1, could have different names or publisher
13:13:24 <wendyreid> ... or the example in 5.1
13:13:45 <wendyreid> wendyreid: That's not fraud, it's third-party resale of paperback content
13:13:53 <wendyreid> liisamk: It's a different case
13:14:12 <wendyreid> ... there is legal and legitimate resale of print content
13:14:19 <wendyreid> ... but there is fraud too
13:14:42 <wendyreid> sebastian: We'll need to make this distinction in the document
13:14:54 <wendyreid> liisamk: I might be able to get someone in legal to help with this
13:15:28 <wendyreid> sebastian: [opens twitter thread], this is an experience from the author
13:15:41 <wendyreid> ivan: Let's not get too sidetracked
13:16:02 <wendyreid> ... abstract is too restrictive, and we usually finalize it when the rest of the document is complete
13:16:46 <wendyreid> ... perhaps this is where the lawyer can help us, what are the legally fraudulent cases?
13:16:55 <wendyreid> ... cases for the purpose of this specification
13:17:05 <wendyreid> ... we don't want to be imprecise
13:17:49 <wendyreid> liisamk: Agreed, from a legal perspective, and a copyright one, there is a bizarre twist where it is likely the seller of fraudulent content is less at legal risk to not do anything about it, the minute they address it, it becomes risk
13:17:59 <wendyreid> ... that is different from country to country
13:19:36 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We need to be careful about scope, we can specify guidance for ebooks, but won't likely be able to do anything about fraudulent print distribution
13:19:59 <wendyreid> sebastian: Informing publishers about fraudulent covers or metadata could be in scope
13:20:14 <wendyreid> ivan: It depends on what the scope is of the document, not just the metadata
13:20:18 <wendyreid> ...we'll see it later
13:20:29 <wendyreid> ... getting into the area of printed books might be a stretch
13:20:48 <wendyreid> liisamk: Perhaps we can keep in mind whether this methodology might apply to print on demand titls
13:20:59 <wendyreid> ... as POD becomes more of the business
13:21:16 <wendyreid> ... that part of the business is expanding exponentially
13:21:32 <wendyreid> ... everyone is looking for answers to help with shipping/warehousing issues
13:21:44 <wendyreid> ... the files used for those printings being out there more
13:21:52 <wendyreid> ... more opportunity for fraud
13:22:30 <wendyreid> sebastian: [example from print] the author had pictures and proof of the differences
13:22:57 <wendyreid> ... the ISCC would be generated for the cover image wouldn't match, it could trigger an alert
13:23:21 <wendyreid> ... I would like to add some more to the status of the document
13:23:28 <wendyreid> ... not a legal evaluation of the facts
13:24:21 <wendyreid> liisamk: Something to say we're not doing anything legally binding
13:24:53 <wendyreid> sebastian: [drafts] we'll get a lawyer to review
13:25:23 <wendyreid> ... for the abstract, I think we have the main use case covered
13:25:55 <wendyreid> ivan: I will add a comment
13:26:44 <wendyreid> sebastian: [introduction]
13:27:44 <wendyreid> ... [adding a terminology section]
13:28:27 <wendyreid> ... [reviewing the terminology proposed]
13:28:52 <wendyreid> ... [variants section]
13:30:05 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We'll want to mention the variations within 5.1
13:30:12 <wendyreid> sebastian: [adding note]
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13:31:37 <wendyreid> wendyreid: For 5.2, the books are most often free right?
13:31:58 <wendyreid> liisamk: Yeah, that was a trend for a while, with the rest of the content behind a fraudulent paywall
13:32:03 <wendyreid> ... it's more commonly used on etsy
13:32:31 <wendyreid> wendyreid: It's easier to detect a paypal link
13:32:46 <wendyreid> ivan: In the journal world, this is often what publishers do
13:32:54 <wendyreid> ... or in newspapers
13:33:09 <wendyreid> ... we have to be careful of how to communicate
13:34:15 <wendyreid> wendyreid: There's a context of trust, if I'm on nytimes.com and get asked to pay to continue I get it, not on my ereader
13:34:23 <wendyreid> ivan: True but it's important to be mindful of
13:34:29 <wendyreid> sebastian: [edits]
13:34:47 <wendyreid> ... 5.3 publication of fraudulent content
13:35:02 <wendyreid> ... using original cover images or metadata to sell different fraudulent content
13:35:35 <wendyreid> ... 5.3.1 book published with same cover and metadata, but description suggests using the book as a diary
13:36:21 <wendyreid> ... screenshot of an original product and it's fraudulent copy
13:36:55 <wendyreid> liisamk: This is fraud of the cover
13:37:05 <wendyreid> ... branding and author identity used to sell the book]
13:37:16 <wendyreid> sebastian: also the best seller marks and associated info
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13:37:40 <wendyreid> ... a use case where we could inform the publisher of an issue, the cover image matches
13:37:50 <wendyreid> ... compare the declarations
13:38:20 <wendyreid> ivan: Question I have, is there another or other types of counterfeiting?
13:38:36 <wendyreid> liisamk: There's also the totally different classic book behind a cover
13:38:43 <wendyreid> ... there's altered content
13:38:49 <wendyreid> ... particularly on diet books
13:39:23 <wendyreid> ... take most of a cover, make it unique, plagiarize small bits of our book, but have someone else writing their own diet plan
13:39:37 <wendyreid> ... partial plagiarization
13:39:50 <wendyreid> ... lots of research and back and forth, what should be done with them
13:39:58 <wendyreid> ... the other party will argue their content is legitimate
13:40:11 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Bleeds into fair use possibly?
13:40:22 <wendyreid> liisamk: Yes, but we've been tracking cases
13:40:30 <wendyreid> ... we have a number of different cases
13:41:02 <wendyreid> sebastian: What I find interesting, we have this assumption the fraudulent content would need some kind of perceptive trigger to be interesting to customers
13:41:07 <wendyreid> ... in all of these cases
13:41:33 <wendyreid> ... all cases use known and established branding from authors or publishers
13:41:59 <wendyreid> liisamk: In the midst of this conversation, I just got a fraud notice I've been looking at
13:42:35 <wendyreid> sebastian: Maybe we can use some of the examples you have
13:42:47 <wendyreid> ... next section is the means of offering fraudulent content
13:42:58 <wendyreid> ... 6.1 use of original or manipulated cover image
13:43:41 <wendyreid> ... 6.1.1 example
13:43:59 <wendyreid> ... same image or slightly modified
13:44:33 <wendyreid> ... 6.2 use or manipulation of original metadata
13:45:40 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Is it more often publisher or author name manipulation
13:45:43 <wendyreid> liisamk: Both
13:45:48 <wendyreid> ... different page counts
13:45:58 <wendyreid> ... author, brand, page count, description
13:46:07 <wendyreid> ... all slightly modified
13:46:21 <wendyreid> ... metadata is more about how people are skirting by the checks
13:46:34 <wendyreid> ... that detect something being a duplicate
13:46:56 <wendyreid> ... or change after the fact, use the wrong author name to get it in the store, then adjsut
13:47:05 <wendyreid> sebastian: We need to add more then
13:47:41 <wendyreid> ... third party sellers complicate this
13:47:52 <wendyreid> ... 7 is the methodology section
13:48:08 <wendyreid> ... changes after upload to avoid detection
13:48:34 <wendyreid> ... [reading section 7.1]
13:49:08 <wendyreid> ... [section 8]
13:49:14 <wendyreid> ... counter measures
13:49:43 <wendyreid> ... raising awareness, research, collaboration with retailers/publishers
13:50:37 <wendyreid> liisamk: It's hard to know, some uncertainty about communicating, a potential PR issue
13:51:26 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Getting this from author's associations might be the best approach
13:51:52 <wendyreid> sebastian: Publishers associations can assist with providing the leverage to reprot
13:51:58 <wendyreid> s/reprot/report
13:52:16 <wendyreid> liisamk: The retailers are trying, it's just a challenge to get ahead of
13:52:35 <wendyreid> ... awareness is good
13:53:14 <wendyreid> sebastian: Research, conducted by publishers and author associations
13:54:28 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Getting research is key for us to fix this problem
13:54:53 <wendyreid> sebastian: collaboration - this is our final suggestion
13:55:04 <wendyreid> ... reach out to platforms to figure out what can be easily done
13:55:20 <wendyreid> ... section 9, goals of the group and countermeasures
13:55:34 <wendyreid> ... faster discovery of fraudulent content
13:55:39 <wendyreid> ... faster response
13:56:22 <wendyreid> liisamk: One of the things our counter measures do is make it easier for partners detect before things make it to market
13:56:51 <wendyreid> wendyreid: providing preventative solutions as opposed to reactive ones
13:57:45 <wendyreid> sebastian: The EU copyright directive, to help give platforms knowledge of copyrighted content
13:57:53 <wendyreid> ... [section 10]
13:58:24 <wendyreid> ... requirements would be to make declarations of original content, access to recent content listings
13:58:29 <wendyreid> ... verification of content
13:58:51 <wendyreid> liisamk: This is a great framework
13:59:03 <wendyreid> ... I can go back and find examples and things
13:59:08 <wendyreid> ... need to work on this section
13:59:22 <wendyreid> ... from a business perspective, how do we solve this
13:59:29 <wendyreid> ... need buy in to do some testing
13:59:35 <wendyreid> ... we have a meeting in 2 weeks
13:59:51 <wendyreid> s/2 weeks/1 week
14:00:09 <wendyreid> liisamk: Need to get back on the right bi-weekly schedule
14:00:57 <wendyreid> sebastian: Question, I have two hats, ISCC foundation, everything I have mentioned in the document, but I also work on a solution as an entrepreneur, my solution is an option
14:01:16 <wendyreid> ... I don't want to deal with people saying I've not disclosed
14:02:38 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-publishingcg-minutes.html wendyreid
14:02:42 <wendyreid> present+
14:03:22 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
14:03:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, wendyreid
14:03:23 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
14:03:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/05/05-publishingcg-minutes.html Zakim
14:03:28 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:03:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #publishingcg
14:04:01 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
14:04:34 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
14:04:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items