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13:01:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:01:42 <Zakim> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
13:02:02 <Wilco> agenda+ ACT Standup
13:02:07 <Wilco> agenda+ Annual rule review
13:02:11 <Wilco> agenda+ How to use GitHub for ACT
13:02:13 <Wilco> agenda+ Better define how rules related to page states (30 min)
13:02:15 <Wilco> agenda+ HTML page language subtag matches default language
13:02:18 <Wilco> agenda+ Decide if we want to continue using "test cases" as a term, along with examples
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13:03:30 <thbrunet> present+
13:03:34 <Helen> present+
13:03:41 <kathy> present+
13:03:56 <Helen> scribe+
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13:04:00 <catherine> Chair: Wilco
13:04:06 <catherine> present+
13:04:36 <trevor> present+
13:05:13 <Wilco> present+
13:05:19 <Suji> present+
13:05:41 <Helen> zakim, take up next
13:05:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- ACT Standup -- taken up [from Wilco]
13:06:18 <Helen> Wilco: working on tooling for implementation pages, and got stuck on some bits but almost done on secondary requirements
13:06:25 <Helen> ... and long list completed
13:06:49 <Helen> Catherine: A light week for me
13:07:37 <Helen> Kathy: I attended the CG meeting last week where we talked about label in name and someone is working on an algorithm on it, and I am working ont he GitHub instructions
13:07:43 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2050
13:08:25 <Helen> Chris: Working on a manual rule with lots of feedback from Jean-Yves and working with Oracle to become an implementer, and hope to complete by end of May
13:08:50 <Helen> Wilco: If you find any issues, please log an issue
13:09:37 <Helen> Tom: Not done as much as I would like but working on the iFrame item before starting on ARIA
13:10:04 <Helen> Trevor: I made a couple of example steps and made progress on my PRs
13:10:23 <Helen> ... flipped the non-essential text change rule - Wilco can you take a look?
13:10:34 <trevor> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2036/
13:10:42 <trevor> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/1916
13:11:04 <Helen> ... please review these
13:11:41 <thbrunet> Iframe PR that should be ready for another round of reviews later today - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2034
13:12:10 <Helen> Helen: Made an update on my rule: https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2022 - will work on my media PRs next week - apologies for next week
13:12:39 <Helen> Suji: I haven't done much but I have a question - why are surveys active if past their due date?
13:13:20 <Helen> Kathy: They stay active until we have reviewed them - we should update that?
13:13:39 <Helen> Wilco: Maybe "Active" change it to "latest"
13:14:23 <Helen> zakim, take up next
13:14:24 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Annual rule review -- taken up [from Wilco]
13:15:07 <Helen> Wilco: We try to review those not reviewed in the past year to see if they are valid, so time to check them
13:16:19 <ChrisLoiselle> Happy to review and do whatever moves us forward
13:16:20 <Helen> ... We also have several with "updates needed" that seem stuck, and we have different preferences in the team of people who like to review than amend
13:16:49 <Helen> Suji: I would be up for working with someone
13:16:56 <Helen> Catherine: Me too
13:17:04 <Helen> Chris: I am happy to help
13:17:30 <Helen> Wilco: I will set up a call to walk you through it
13:17:39 <ChrisLoiselle> works fo rme
13:17:57 <Helen> Kathy: Me too on the review side
13:18:11 <Helen> zakim, take up next
13:18:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- How to use GitHub for ACT -- taken up [from Wilco]
13:18:35 <kathy> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VF5LB09CDwtJ9iRFGJuYL4i8atqvBpA8JnYuGMWfcqo/edit#heading=h.161g9adyo3hv
13:19:37 <Helen> Kathy: Shows her screen - we are trying to develop helpful guidance on how to use GitHub to help new people that might not understand it as not straight forward
13:20:02 <Helen> ... we are listing topics and comments to help build these out
13:21:04 <Helen> ... We are also using other information that other groups have created to help us out
13:21:23 <Helen> ... Do we want videos or are written instructions ok?
13:22:12 <Helen> ... shows the work in progress with steps and screenshots
13:22:38 <Helen> ... can people read through this and add comments or any ideas or changes required?
13:22:43 <ChrisLoiselle> I will make a note to do this tomorrow!
13:23:02 <Helen> ... These are in my repository but feel free to have a look and contribute
13:24:22 <Helen> Helen: Videos are not needed, but text instructions are easier to skim through to find the bit you need - with screenshots
13:24:34 <Helen> Wilco: Agree - as videos get out of date fast
13:25:02 <ChrisLoiselle> I think Google Docs is fine . +1 to screenshot and notes
13:25:41 <Helen> Catherine: Yes - I like the idea with screenshots for the complex items
13:25:44 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/GitHub-instructions is listed here for reference
13:26:07 <Helen> Wilco: Are we happy to have this as a Google Doc? And where to we keep it in the agenda page?
13:26:15 <Helen> All: Agree
13:27:29 <Helen> Kathy: Can we have a practice Repo?
13:27:55 <Helen> Helen: It is easy to not make a mistake as we cannot publish anything!
13:28:15 <Helen> Wilco: It is easy to create - I will do it
13:29:06 <Helen> zakim, take up next
13:29:06 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Better define how rules related to page states (30 min) -- taken up [from Wilco]
13:29:50 <Helen> Trevor: Shares screen
13:30:17 <trevor> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/discussions/2046
13:30:20 <Helen> ... Talking about adding in steps on stateful rules to help get to the right state for the testing examples
13:31:30 <Helen> ... A point made from Kathy is quite apt, that if done for manual then shouldn't it also be done for automation
13:32:41 <Helen> ... each example shown has the steps to follow for the test state. So we have an overall description followed by the steps to get to the test state
13:33:22 <Helen> ... Thought people?
13:33:29 <Helen> Kathy: Works for me!
13:34:00 <Helen> Wilco: Should the steps be in the example itself so easier to follow when testing?
13:34:19 <Helen> Trevor: I have no problem doing that but have we done it before?
13:35:43 <Helen> Helen: Will steps need to be added into all rules going forward?
13:36:17 <ChrisLoiselle> The way I've been going through the implementation is have the rule then open the pass or fail examples in another window to work through outcomes and go through the outcome select lists, if that helps within the context of this discussion.
13:36:35 <Helen> Trevor: Only for those that need to find the new states, and most rules do not need this.
13:37:18 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 to clarify the test steps if not in the SC
13:37:21 <ChrisLoiselle> to clarify SC
13:38:08 <Helen> ... There might be others about triggering the state if it is not called out in the SC then we need to add steps
13:38:29 <Helen> Helen: Ok I will update the manual rule template if this is agreed
13:38:48 <Helen> Wilco: We might need to review the current rules that may need this
13:39:07 <Helen> ... like the keyboard trap one
13:40:18 <Helen> Trevor: Yes we might need to review any stateful rules
13:40:59 <Helen> Tom: May need a new title for the steps to help clarify them?
13:41:57 <Helen> Trevor: I will move on the exception part next week
13:42:01 <Helen> zakim, take up next
13:42:01 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- HTML page language subtag matches default language -- taken up [from Wilco]
13:43:21 <Helen> Wilco: The name of the rules are no longer populating the rule sheet due to a Google update - I will fix it!
13:44:22 <trevor> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/act/rules/ucwvc8/proposed/
13:45:20 <Helen> ... we got as far as the lang to be empty if there is no content?
13:45:34 <Helen> Trevor: It will fail elsewhere won't it?
13:46:53 <Helen> Wilco: We just care about it passing the test criteria like in 1 rule we care if it has a lang attribute and another checks the lang attribute is valid, but we have an inapplicable in one, but it fails in another
13:46:55 <ChrisLoiselle> I would want to be consistent
13:47:07 <Helen> Trevor: Can we just remove it?
13:47:54 <Helen> Wilco: We are trying to teach a title is needed, and therefore a language is needed, so to have this as inapplicable goes against this?
13:48:51 <Helen> ... and Kathy asked - what about numbers? And Helen made a comment on the numbers need to be pronounced
13:49:20 <Helen> ... If a page is empty how can you define a language?
13:49:38 <Helen> ... A page requires a title so it is never truly empty
13:50:30 <Helen> Tom: Do we have titles in the examples given or are they assumed?
13:52:27 <Helen> Helen: You never truly have an empty page so cannot have an example with this
13:53:10 <Helen> Wilco: Would the manual testers all fail this? As a big yes, we need to update the rule so that there is always a lang attribute
13:53:30 <Helen> ... Adds notes tot he sheet
13:54:26 <Helen> s/tot he/to the
13:55:48 <Helen> Kathy: Can we also look at inapplicable examples 5 and 6 - Trusted tester fails these - how do others feel?
13:56:08 <Helen> Chris: For me I agree - these fail
13:56:46 <Helen> Wilco: These fail another rule, so not sure?
13:57:10 <Helen> Tom: Can you set up a way to map to other rules where it does fail?
14:00:23 <Helen> Wilco: We cannot have things that fail the rule in one but not in the other, rule - but we could update the background links to explicitly call out a related rule to be where it does fail
14:00:33 <Helen> Tom: I will raise an issue
14:03:35 <thbrunet> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2059
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