06:40:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
06:41:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-irc
06:41:24 <addison> Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
06:41:29 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
06:41:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
06:41:53 <agendabot> agenda: https://github.com/fantasai
06:41:53 <agendabot> clear agenda
06:41:53 <agendabot> agenda+ -> csswg-status-radar https://github.com/fantasai/csswg-status-radar Public
06:41:53 <agendabot> agenda+ -> wpt https://github.com/fantasai/wpt Public
06:41:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> bikeshed https://github.com/fantasai/bikeshed Public
06:41:57 <agendabot> agenda+ -> MSEdgeExplainers https://github.com/fantasai/MSEdgeExplainers Public
06:41:59 <agendabot> agenda+ -> html https://github.com/fantasai/html Public
06:42:02 <agendabot> agenda+ -> p2020 https://github.com/fantasai/p2020 Public
06:42:13 <addison> clear agenda
06:42:26 <addison> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/34383a56-5b87-4b0f-83c1-edfe3ba62d74/20230425T070000
06:42:26 <agendabot> clear agenda
06:42:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Font Fallback and Generics
06:42:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Flow-relative syntax for 'margin'-like shorthands
06:42:26 <agendabot> agenda+ Custom property namespacing
06:42:26 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
06:43:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
06:50:33 <xfq_> xfq_ has joined #i18n
06:58:19 <addison> present+ Addison
06:59:29 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
07:01:32 <addison> present+ Florian
07:02:03 <addison> present+ Fantasai
07:03:52 <xfq_> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
07:04:12 <addison> agenda+ Korean line breaking
07:04:20 <xfq_> scribe: xfq_
07:04:32 <xfq_> chair: addison
07:04:54 <xfq_> florian: would like to add Korean line breaking to the agenda
07:05:41 <xfq_> agenda?
07:05:52 <xfq_> Topic: Action items
07:06:05 <xfq_> addison: any progress on the action items?
07:06:07 <addison> action-1222?
07:06:07 <trackbot> action-1222 -- Elika Etemad to With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics -- due 2023-01-16 -- OPEN
07:06:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1222
07:06:14 <xfq_> florian: not from me
07:06:28 <addison> action-1223?
07:06:28 <trackbot> action-1223 -- Florian Rivoal to Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default -- due 2023-01-16 -- OPEN
07:06:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1223
07:07:23 <addison> action-1230?
07:07:23 <trackbot> action-1230 -- Florian Rivoal to Make sure generics are comfortable to read in the content lanuage -- due 2023-01-24 -- OPEN
07:07:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1230
07:07:53 <addison> (addison to clarify 1230)
07:07:56 <addison> agenda?
07:08:54 <addison> action: addison: follow up on custom property namespacing
07:09:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1264 - Follow up on custom property namespacing [on Addison Phillips - due 2023-05-02].
07:09:11 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7129
07:09:30 <xfq_> rrsagent, make log public
07:09:33 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
07:09:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
07:10:02 <florian> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4285
07:10:09 <florian> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/11
07:10:25 <xfq_> florian: Korean has two ways to break lines
07:10:32 <xfq_> ... one like English, one like CJ
07:10:42 <xfq_> ... CJ styling is more traditional
07:10:51 <xfq_> ... they're used in different contexts
07:10:57 <xfq_> ... this makes Korean somewhat unique
07:11:12 <xfq_> ... if all the content is language tagged propperly
07:11:20 <xfq_> ... the default mode does the old fashion
07:11:28 <xfq_> ... the new style is not everywhere
07:11:32 <xfq_> ... but it does exist
07:12:07 <xfq_> ... we could just tell the authors to tag the content with the right language
07:12:28 <xfq_> ... the word-break: keep-all is suitable
07:13:26 <xfq_> ... we could have a new keyword: auto-for-every-language-but-do-different-things-for-korean
07:13:41 <xfq_> ... I have an action to see if it's unique
07:13:52 <xfq_> ... i.e., if it exists in other languages
07:14:02 <xfq_> ... ethiopic
07:14:10 <xfq_> ... old fashion of breaking everywhere
07:14:25 <xfq_> ... the state of the technology is different
07:14:41 <xfq_> ... afaik Korean is the only language in the world in this situation
07:14:54 <xfq_> addison: this is mostly concerned about Hangual breaking
07:15:02 <fantasai> word-break: keep-hangul
07:15:20 <xfq_> s/Hangual/Hangul
07:15:33 <xfq_> fantasai: kind of like vertical vs horizontal in japanese
07:15:41 <xfq_> florian: to a degree, yes
07:15:56 <fantasai> i/fantasai/florian: Although I said modern/new vs traditional/old, both styles are in use today
07:16:11 <xfq_> ... either get the csswg to completely reject this idea
07:16:35 <xfq_> ... if you go to klreq it has a brief sentence saying that both practices exist
07:16:52 <xfq_> ... this is not a thing that needs generalization into 25 languages
07:17:06 <xfq_> ... that's the problem statement
07:17:28 <xfq_> ... it's indeed not a general problem, this is a specialized one
07:17:33 <addison> action: addison: follow up with richard about i18n-discuss#11
07:17:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1265 - Follow up with richard about i18n-discuss#11 [on Addison Phillips - due 2023-05-02].
07:17:45 <xfq_> addison: I'll follow up with r12a
07:17:53 <fantasai> Looking for confirmation on 2 things:
07:17:56 <xfq_> ... and the various Korean folks
07:18:04 <fantasai> 1. Need for this new breaking behavior
07:18:11 <xfq_> florian: I have a clear sense that they're both used
07:18:25 <fantasai> 2. No need for similar switches for other writing systems
07:18:32 <xfq_> addison: it's unclear what the most people expect it to be
07:18:55 <xfq_> florian: it is a thing people do here and there
07:19:36 <xfq_> fantasai: @@1
07:20:04 <xfq_> addison: I'll double check the Ethiopic script with r12a
07:20:05 <fantasai> s/@@1/I'd imagine CJ behavior is more common with justification, since it reduces the amount of space that needs to be introduced to justify the line/
07:20:36 <xfq_> florian: I think it is less a problem in ethiopic script, but I may be wrong
07:20:51 <xfq_> ... it's a matter of how you choose the default
07:21:11 <xfq_> present+ r12a
07:21:33 <fantasai> florian clarified that while both behaviors are well supported in CSS as opt-in, and defaults are not really changeable given compat,  the question is how to handle unknown/untagged content
07:22:18 <xfq_> addison: we're talking about Korean line breaking, traditional syllable breaking
07:22:23 <xfq_> ... and modern line breaking
07:22:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
07:23:13 <xfq_> florian: I'm looking for either support, or an explanation of not supporting it
07:23:41 <xfq_> addison: will that require page authors everywhere to invoke this sort of special mode?
07:23:54 <xfq_> florian: people can add it to css resets
07:24:23 <xfq_> ... Korean authors might accept comments in other languages
07:24:30 <xfq_> ... keep the value only for Korean
07:26:05 <xfq_> r12a: for Ethiopic my understanding the older orthography is not defunct yet
07:26:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
07:26:22 <xfq_> ... not every person uses space these days
07:27:50 <xfq_> florian: my understanding is that the traditional writing style is still alive, but you have to deliberately wanted it
07:28:27 <xfq_> ... I would like to know if Korean is the only writing system in this situation
07:29:20 <xfq_> r12a: how does the Unicode line breaking properties do?
07:30:32 <xfq_> florian: I'm been working with Bloomberg, they have English/Japanese/Korean etc., and they want the users to see the expect behaviour, however, they don't know what the users would type
07:30:50 <fantasai> If we need something more generic, it can be keep(<scriptname>) / break(<scriptname>) where these are diffs against 'normal'.
07:30:52 <xfq_> ... keep-word for Korean, but not for anything else
07:31:14 <fantasai> But if we don't need it to be generic, keep-hangul seems fine
07:32:32 <xfq_> ... if it is true Korean is in this narrow space, it is easy to spec and implement, and it's trickier to find a name
07:33:31 <xfq_> fantasai: the new behaviour is basically 'normal' except that @@
07:33:50 <xfq_> ... the value we have now is to keep all the letters like latin, or break all letters like CJK
07:34:41 <xfq_> ... I'm not entirely convinced that we need something generic
07:35:12 <xfq_> ... we can introduce 'keep-hangul' and if needed 'break-ethiopic'
07:35:43 <xfq_> addison: the key thing is to be able to set default without language tagging
07:35:43 <fantasai> s/except that @@/except that Hangul is reclassified to behave like Latin/
07:35:52 <xfq_> florian: you can already do that
07:35:53 <fantasai> s/the value we have/the other values we have/
07:36:52 <fantasai> s/something generic/something generic, but if we did, we could have keep(<scriptname>+) which reclassifies that script to behave like Latin; and break(<scriptname>+) which reclassifies that script to behave like CJK/
07:37:05 <xfq_> florian: people can add <span class=hangul> and use JavaScript
07:38:12 <xfq_> ... we basically need proof of 2 things, there is only one case, and if it matters, I think it matters, and i18n can tell us if this is the only case
07:39:04 <xfq_> ... I'm convinced that these two styles exist, but I'm not sure how prevalent they are
07:39:52 <xfq_> ... that would be useful to document
07:40:00 <xfq_> ... klreq only says a simple sentence
07:40:47 <xfq_> addison: we should raise it with the klreq folks and others
07:41:28 <xfq_> florian: do you want to do the parallel efforts with the ethiopic group to say that if they're satisfied with the default line breaking
07:41:52 <xfq_> ... or should we switch to another state without breaking other languages
07:42:24 <xfq_> r12a: Sundanese break on syllable boundaries
07:42:37 <xfq_> florian: that's a related but different problem
07:42:52 <xfq_> ... we're talking about languages that can do 2 things
07:44:24 <fantasai> Topic: ic character
07:44:25 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7577#issuecomment-1332546032
07:44:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
07:44:54 <xfq_> fantasai: CSS needs to know the width of a CJK character
07:45:13 <xfq_> ... we define it using the ic unit
07:45:29 <xfq_> ... the spec current uses 水 (water)
07:46:03 <xfq_> ... there is a large controversy
07:46:14 <xfq_> ... people want to change it to 永 (eternal)
07:46:21 <xfq_> ... but water is more common
07:46:41 <xfq_> ... there are a lot of discussions, maybe we should swith it to eternal
07:46:43 <florian> s/if all the content is language tagged propperly/if all the content is language tagged properly, all desirable behavior is available/
07:47:25 <xfq_> ... there was a recent comment from someone asking to switch away from either of those characters to the ideographic space U+3000
07:47:55 <xfq_> ... my recollection was that U+3000 was slightly narrower
07:48:02 <xfq_> ... but I could be wrong
07:48:24 <florian> water = 水
07:48:24 <florian> eternity = 泳
07:48:32 <xfq_> 永
07:49:08 <xfq_> florian:  we need a definition for ic, and the current spec uses water
07:49:14 <xfq_> ... because it's extremely common
07:49:39 <xfq_> ... but eternal is a standard of Asian calligraphy
07:49:45 <xfq_> fantasai: it's largely symbolic
07:50:22 <florian> s/泳/永/
07:50:25 <xfq_> ... the country character is a box, but the box is narrower
07:52:08 <fantasai> xfq_: Technically water is the better choice for this, because it's more common
07:52:20 <fantasai> ... and as someone commented, it's in the more common bucket in fonts
07:52:31 <fantasai> ... Though that could maybe be changed
07:52:40 <fantasai> ... I don't expect any font not including the eternal character
07:52:54 <fantasai> ... because it's also very common, at least in Chinese and Japanese
07:53:07 <fantasai> ... and Korean doesn't use Hanja much
07:53:16 <fantasai> ... so I'm not sure about the frequency there
07:53:26 <xfq_> scribe+ fantasai
07:53:31 <addison> ack fantasai
07:54:02 <xfq_> fantasai: it's one of the day of a week
07:54:05 <xfq_> xfq_: in Japanese
07:54:14 <xfq_> ... but not in Chinese
07:54:39 <xfq_> r12a: why do we have an ic unit, but not an em unit?
07:54:51 <xfq_> fantasai: we have an em unit, but not all fonts are square
07:55:18 <xfq_> s/it's/water is the name of/
07:55:47 <xfq_> florian: em is not the size of the letter m
07:56:03 <xfq_> ... we have a ch unit which gives the size of a character in a monospace font
07:56:17 <xfq_> ... we're designing a char for the CJK context
07:57:08 <xfq_> ... is it true that U+3000 is narrow in a proportional font
07:57:55 <xfq_> MS Mincho Proportional
07:58:03 <xfq_> MS PGothic
07:58:51 <fantasai> 1. tate-chu-yoko width
07:58:54 <fantasai> 2. ic unit width
07:59:01 <fantasai> 3. ICFT measurement
07:59:06 <fantasai> (for drop-cap alignment)
07:59:10 <xfq_> fantasai: there are 3 purposes we currently use water for ^
07:59:50 <xfq_> ... there has been a lot of people arguing about it in the issue
08:00:13 <xfq_> florian: it is spec'd this way and implemented this way, but people are complaining
08:01:23 <xfq_> fantasai: as far as I can tell the complaints are all symbolic
08:03:08 <xfq_> florian: request for i18n is either back us up that we're correct, or come up with something that's more useful
08:03:28 <xfq_> addison: I'd be more nervous to come back with more opinions
08:04:08 <xfq_> florian: we already had a decision, should we change it?
08:04:35 <xfq_> fantasai: it is testable
08:05:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
08:06:14 <fantasai> s/testable/testable, if you make a font with different widths for these characters; but won't make any practical difference because a normal font won't have any difference/
08:06:36 <fantasai> xfq_: I haven't seen any non-experimental propertional CJK fonts
08:07:06 <xfq_> s/propertional CJK fonts/proportional CJK fonts that includes proportional Han characters/
08:07:15 <fantasai> florian: I think I've seen fonts where there the puctuation characters are slightly narrower, but that's it
08:09:15 <xfq_> r12a: Jen from Apple posted that Safari Technology Preview will support custom counter styles
08:09:38 <xfq_> ... not sure if they will support iOS
08:10:00 <xfq_> florian: it's the same engine, so I would be suprised if they don't
08:10:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html addison
08:10:40 <addison> zakim, bye
08:10:40 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, Florian, Fantasai, r12a
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08:28:38 <r12a> s/why do we have an ic unit, but not an em unit?/why do we have an ic unit, in addition to an em unit?
08:28:49 <r12a> rrsagent, make minutes
08:28:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/25-i18n-minutes.html r12a
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