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16:23:05 <atsushi> zakim, clear agenda
16:23:05 <Zakim> agenda cleared
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16:30:30 <CharlesL> present+
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16:50:46 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive-Web WG/CG face-to-face day 1
16:50:51 <atsushi> chair: Ada
16:50:56 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
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16:58:26 <atsushi> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/F2F-April-2023/schedule.md
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16:59:41 <marcosc> marcosc has changed the topic to: Immerisive Web F2F - Cupertino
17:00:13 <Jared> present +
17:00:16 <Manishearth_> present+
17:00:16 <Dylan_XR_Access> present+
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17:02:08 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
17:02:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
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17:02:30 <felix_Meta_> present+
17:02:49 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr-gamepads-module#58 Add support for a PCM buffer to the gamepad actuator
17:02:59 <vicki> present+
17:03:08 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr#1320 Discuss Accessibility Standards Process
17:03:17 <Brandel> present+
17:03:18 <atsushi> agenda+ semantic-labels
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17:03:31 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr#1317 Some WebXR Implementations pause the 2D browser page in XR, make this optional?
17:03:36 <adarose> present+
17:03:48 <atsushi> agenda+ navigation#13 Let's have a chat about Navigation at the facetoface
17:03:54 <Dylan_XR_Access> scribe: Dylan_XR_Access
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17:04:11 <atsushi> agenda +webxr#1273 Next steps for raw camera access
17:04:15 <Dylan_XR_Access> Introductions
17:04:26 <atsushi> agenda+ webxr#892 Evaluate how/if WebXR should interact with audio-only devices
17:04:30 <atsushi> zakim, list agenda
17:04:30 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:31 <Zakim> 1. webxr-gamepads-module#58 Add support for a PCM buffer to the gamepad actuator [from atsushi]
17:04:31 <Zakim> 2. webxr#1320 Discuss Accessibility Standards Process [from atsushi]
17:04:31 <Zakim> 3. semantic-labels [from atsushi]
17:04:32 <Zakim> 4. webxr#1317 Some WebXR Implementations pause the 2D browser page in XR, make this optional? [from atsushi]
17:04:32 <Zakim> 5. navigation#13 Let's have a chat about Navigation at the facetoface [from atsushi]
17:04:33 <Zakim> 6. webxr#1273 Next steps for raw camera access [from atsushi]
17:04:33 <Zakim> 7. webxr#892 Evaluate how/if WebXR should interact with audio-only devices [from atsushi]
17:04:35 <Dylan_XR_Access> Ada Rose Cannon, Apple; into declarative stuff
17:04:49 <Dylan_XR_Access> Nick, sr director at Niantic; AR web and geodata platform for devs
17:09:35 <atsushi> present+
17:13:16 <adarose> https://hackmd.io/@jgilbert/imm-web-unconf
17:13:16 <Dylan_XR_Access> additional introductions available on request
17:13:43 <atsushi> i/Ada Rose Cannon, Apple; into/topic: intro
17:14:04 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 1
17:14:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- webxr-gamepads-module#58 Add support for a PCM buffer to the gamepad actuator -- taken up [from atsushi]
17:14:18 <adarose> https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/F2F-April-2023/schedule.md
17:15:08 <Dylan_XR_Access> Ada: First item on agenda is  Add support for a PCM buffer to the gamepad actuator
17:15:13 <cabanier> https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/1
17:15:18 <cabanier> https://github.com/w3c/gamepad/issues/186
17:15:43 <Dylan_XR_Access> Rik: had support for intensity and vibration of rumble/haptic on controller, but done through nonstandard API
17:16:01 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Google wanted to extend API, Apple objected; should use .WAV file and leave implementation up to developer
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17:16:04 <marcosc> q+
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17:16:28 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Can send multiple frequencies through motor; want to add API to pass audio buffer to controller
17:16:49 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Haptic actuator is nonstandard, people want to get rid of it; but alternate proposals haven't been developed in two years
17:16:54 <Yih> present+
17:16:58 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Also based on touch events, focused on mouse more than controller
17:17:29 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Want API for it in WebXR, so instead of going through input profile, gamepad, haptic actuator, etc.; just go straight through WebXR
17:17:42 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Complication is a constant source of problems
17:18:05 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Really just need a method to play audio file
17:18:07 <bajones> q+
17:18:38 <Dylan_XR_Access> Marcos: putting on web apps working group chair hat, I work on gamepad API with colleagues at Google
17:18:58 <CharlesL> ack marcosc
17:19:02 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...objection was shared, and based on the idea that Xbox live folks were using dual rumble
17:19:22 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...dual rumble was supported in chrome; objected that this is a terrible design, all you do is pass enum and get things to rumble
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17:19:47 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...no fine-grained haptics there. Implemented in web kit, safari, but all found it abhorrent as a working group
17:20:22 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Putting Apple hat on instead, would object to it moving because compared to core haptics, using only audio to represent haptics is not good enough; can't get fidelity you need
17:20:49 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...must synchronize audio and haptics together; not sure what a WAV file would lead to on a gamepad
17:20:49 <cabanier> q+
17:21:13 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...for more complicated haptic devices, there are different regions, multiple actuators; proposal from microsoft is more region-based, e.g. a glove with actuator for each finger
17:22:03 <adarose> q?
17:22:05 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...In web apps, we claimed actuator part because of gamepad; want to figure out in this space whether it's the right time to do generalization
17:22:25 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Minefield with regards to IPR as well. It's a new area for the web, fraught with potential issues
17:22:51 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...e.g. vibration API is not in webkit because you can do vibrations that feel like system vibrations, alerts; could be scary
17:23:22 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Together, many issues that increase complexity; just sending an audio stream isn't good enough
17:23:40 <adarose> ack bajones
17:23:40 <CharlesL> +1 to include region based tactile as well
17:23:41 <adarose> q+
17:23:46 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...But acknowledge that a lot of devices do take audio input. Need to find a happy medium
17:24:35 <Dylan_XR_Access> Brandon: In addition to being concerned that this would map to devices we're trying to support, I feel strongly that putting an API on object A when it likely belongs on object B because we aren't getting what we want from group B is not the right direction
17:25:09 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Could be applicable to any gamepad; we should be improving this for all gamepad-like objects
17:25:23 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Would want to see evidence that what we're doing only applies to webXR devices
17:25:52 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...PSVR2 has rumble in the headset. Could see argument for "let's give the session itself as a proxy for the device the ability to rumble" (though an edge case right now)
17:26:19 <adarose> q?
17:26:21 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Don't just try to leapfrog bureaucracy using the spec - shouldn't take exclusive ownership of this capability
17:26:23 <adarose> ack cabanier
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17:26:32 <marcosc> q+
17:26:40 <Dylan_XR_Access> Rik: Some frustration because haptic actuator has been festering for years. Shipped it nonstandard, leaving us in bad situation
17:27:24 <adarose> q?
17:27:27 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Some frustration over lack of progress. OpenXR supports ___ CCM, with plenty of experiences that use API without problems. Not sure if there's something missing by playing an audio file
17:27:59 <Dylan_XR_Access> Ada: From a politics standpoint, is there anything we can do as a group to encourage discussion? "Festering" is an unfortunately accurate verb
17:28:11 <Manishearth_> q+
17:28:22 <CharlesL> q+
17:28:44 <Dylan_XR_Access> ??: For those of us with ownership over gamepad, we meet once a month Thurs at 4pm; could be a good time to grab Microsoft folks and push discussion
17:28:56 <adarose> ack adarose
17:29:10 <adarose> ack marcosc
17:29:57 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...On the scope questions that came up, targeting gamepads, writing instruments, etc.; could be overly generic. How much of this is an XR issue?
17:30:34 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Folks at Apple adamant that audio isn't going to cut it. Need better synchronization
17:30:49 <adarose> q+ to ask about a web audio node
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17:30:53 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Must synchronize haptics to audio itself. Renderers need to sync with each other, which is challenging
17:31:05 <adarose> ack Manishearth_
17:31:28 <Dylan_XR_Access> Manish: Heard a bunch of political/technical reasons for trickiness; sounds like there might also be a lack of people to do the work
17:31:47 <bajones> q+ to point out compatibility challenges if only targeting the highest end haptics
17:32:16 <Brandel> q+
17:32:17 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Quite a bit of interest here, in this group. Worth wondering if there's a way for people in this group to submit proposal to help
17:33:05 <Dylan_XR_Access> ??: Yes, that would be great. Have been wanting to rage-rewrite it for a while, it's a mess. But it's a matter of resource allocation - need testing framework, etc.
17:33:31 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Would be great to apply resources from multiple companies, have a nice base to apply future WebXR work as well
17:33:36 <adarose> ack CharlesL
17:34:10 <Manishearth_> q+
17:34:14 <Dylan_XR_Access> Charles: From accessibility POV, having only an audio API would be an issue. Having multiple ways to target different regions could be very beneficial if e.g. audio is only coming from your right or left
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17:34:24 <adarose> ack CharlesL
17:34:31 <adarose> ack adarose
17:34:31 <Zakim> adarose, you wanted to ask about a web audio node
17:34:51 <Dylan_XR_Access> Ada: This is probably wrong group for this, but could be cool if it was a web audio node
17:35:01 <Dylan_XR_Access> Manish: as hacky as that sounds, it might be the best way to do this
17:35:06 <adarose> q?
17:35:09 <Manishearth_> q-
17:35:10 <adarose> ack bajones
17:35:10 <Zakim> bajones, you wanted to point out compatibility challenges if only targeting the highest end haptics
17:36:15 <Dylan_XR_Access> Brandon: Want to caution against the perfect being the enemy of the good. In some cases, you've just got a little motor that buzzes
17:36:17 <marcosc> q+
17:36:39 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Would be a shame if we ignore pressing need for haptics in devices available today because people want to be architectural astronauts
17:36:56 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Balance to be made between quick and dirty, vs planning for the future
17:36:56 <adarose> q?
17:37:09 <adarose> ack Brandel
17:37:18 <cabanier> q+
17:37:40 <Dylan_XR_Access> Brandel: on topic of devices that exist today, Xbox One has 4 actuators, with intention of spatializing a haptic moment. The accessibility controller also has haptics
17:38:06 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...need a higher level signal to make judgments on what spatialization entails
17:38:14 <adarose> q?
17:38:20 <adarose> ack marcosc
17:38:45 <Dylan_XR_Access> Marcos: Sony are editors of gamepad spec, have asked them to take a look at uploading audio from the web
17:38:57 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...Concern that comes up is that controllers were never designed to take random files from the web
17:39:10 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...From a security perspective, not sure whether harm can be done. e.g. overloading the motor
17:39:42 <Dylan_XR_Access> ...iPhone considered a gamepad as well
17:39:42 <adarose> q?
17:39:45 <adarose> ack cabanier
17:40:19 <Dylan_XR_Access> Rik: for reference, Quest Pro controller has 4 haptic actuators, including a fancy one; all take audio, system downsamples to do something reasonable
17:40:28 <Dylan_XR_Access> Brandel: does it expose relative position?
17:40:39 <Dylan_XR_Access> Rik: no, the gamepad is just supposed to know which one is which
17:41:11 <Dylan_XR_Access> Marcos: have a demo that could show how it does work with audio. How it synchronizes, etc.
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17:41:28 <Dylan_XR_Access> Rik: Everything is synchronized to display time. Pass it a time, it plays at that time.
17:41:35 <Dylan_XR_Access> Marcos: Send it like a URL?
17:41:49 <Dylan_XR_Access> Rik: No, it's a web audio buffer. Already in memory
17:42:02 <Dylan_XR_Access> Ada: We should set a cross-group meeting
17:42:32 <Dylan_XR_Access> Marcos: next meeting on Thursday May 11th
17:43:25 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 2
17:43:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- webxr#1320 Discuss Accessibility Standards Process -- taken up [from atsushi]
17:44:00 <Manishearth_> scribenick: Manishearth_
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17:44:34 <Manishearth_> Dylan: prior a11y discussions: webxr has *some* control over this but it's fundamentally a low level system
17:44:44 <atsushi> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
17:44:53 <Manishearth_> .... we should figure out what of this is under our scope, and what falls under other groups
17:45:29 <Manishearth_> ... case study: charles & i are a part of an NSF team, making nonverbal communication in XR accessible to low-vision people. making gestures, physical proximity, and 3d/2d content and turning that into sound and haptics
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17:46:12 <Manishearth_> ... some things here we can help handle, some things like gestures or emoji are beyond the webxr level
17:46:50 <Dylan_XR_Access> Resource: How Do You Add Alternative Text and Metadata to glTF Objects? https://equalentry.com/accessibility-gltf-objects/
17:47:19 <adarose> q?
17:47:20 <Manishearth_>  .... <missed>
17:47:28 <Jared> q+
17:47:36 <Manishearth_> .... could create a task force from XR a11y, separate from tuesday meetings
17:48:03 <Manishearth_> ... can bring recs to this group as a while, and bring in the APA/etc
17:48:19 <Manishearth_> Charle: <last two lines>
17:48:32 <adarose> q+ to ask about standardisation work we can do in this group
17:48:49 <adarose> ack Jared
17:48:50 <Manishearth_> Dylan: A lot of the current screenreaders in VR are about pointing at what you want and OCRing what you see, as opposed to looking at "everything in the space"
17:48:53 <Jared> https://www.w3.org/2019/08/inclusive-xr-workshop/
17:49:25 <Manishearth_> Jared: back in 2019 was that there was a workshop. there's quite a bit of shifts around responsibilities in the w3c
17:49:43 <Manishearth_> ... could be interesting for this group to have one resource for what the responsibilities currently are
17:50:07 <Manishearth_> ...  i've had a hard time discovering what that is. would be good to come up with consensus on the current state of things
17:50:11 <adarose> q?
17:50:28 <Dylan_XR_Access> XR Access github: https://bit.ly/xraccess-github
17:51:06 <Nick-Niantic> q+
17:51:15 <adarose> ack adarose
17:51:15 <Zakim> adarose, you wanted to ask about standardisation work we can do in this group
17:51:29 <Manishearth_> Dylan: one thing is that we don't have things like a list of legal responsibilities for XR, and that's one of the problems
17:51:39 <Manishearth_> ... good to have minimum guidelines around this
17:51:56 <Manishearth_> ada: 100%, if we had such minimal guidelines we could start building the things we need so people can satisfy them
17:52:23 <Manishearth_> ... also this is a good group to do this work, to do it in the group or as a separate task force formed from this group
17:53:09 <Manishearth_> ... something mentioned last week, might be a good idea to ... like the a11y object model ... the visual parts of that model is quite tied in, but nothing like that for WebGL. Giving people the option to generate that themselves will be useful
17:53:25 <CharlesL> q+
17:53:25 <adarose> q?
17:53:29 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
17:53:43 <Manishearth_> ... and then if there are minimum-viable standards later, we can say "hey we made this easy for you" (and if you don't do it, there's the stick)
17:53:56 <Manishearth_> Nick: when we talk about a11y we talk about alt text, ARIA tags, ... markup
17:54:13 <Manishearth_> ... as ada said we now have webgl/gpu which don't know anything about what they're rendering
17:54:30 <adarose> q+
17:54:36 <Manishearth_> ... but you also have frameworks like a-frame/etc that integrate with DOM/etc
17:55:04 <Manishearth_> ... and they can perhaps do more semantic a11y stuff
17:55:11 <Manishearth_> ... otoh there's pushback against them for being heavy on the DOM
17:55:19 <adarose> ack CharlesL
17:55:42 <Manishearth_> Nick: in other words; do you think we should make a standard like a-frame, or something else?
17:55:46 <Manishearth_> q+
17:56:18 <Manishearth_> adarose: would like an imperative API, where you build some kind of tree
17:56:35 <Manishearth_> ... probably has access to hit boxes / etc
17:56:56 <Manishearth_> Nick: could it be declarative? like a json file?
17:57:03 <Manishearth_> ada: i guess you could and then parse it into tree
17:57:29 <Manishearth_> ada: part of my instinct is to keep the DOM for stuff that is rendered in DOM
17:57:37 <Manishearth_> ... especially as we get more DOM integration
17:58:17 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
17:58:17 <Manishearth_> ... a-frame has shown you can have a nice matchup bw the DOM tree and the scenegraph
17:58:17 <adarose> scribe nick: adarose
17:59:07 <cabanier> q+
17:59:36 <cwilso> present+
17:59:50 <adarose> Manishearth_: I would prefer an imperative API, I would not want to standardise AFRame for a11y, I think for a DOM based API, that more ARIA tags which declarative APIs like AFrames could use would be nice. But an Imperative API would work for everyone. Whilst I think the DOM based API is fine I wouldn't want to force everyone through it.
18:00:40 <adarose> ... there are lots of tools for that scenarios I don't want people to use a11y I nXR to stick with that approach. Imperative APIs can be integrated in to the DOM based APIs without it being an additional cost
18:00:40 <Manishearth_> q?
18:00:41 <Jared> q+
18:00:45 <Manishearth_> ack Manish
18:00:48 <adarose> ack adarose
18:00:51 <adarose> ack Manishearth_
18:00:59 <Manishearth_> scribe+
18:01:00 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
18:01:15 <CharlesL> q+
18:01:19 <Manishearth_> Dylan: another player that we should keep in mind here is screenreaders
18:01:31 <Manishearth_> ... there's gonna be a big q of ... when they get this, how do they interpret it
18:01:43 <Manishearth_> ... what are they going to do with it
18:02:15 <Manishearth_> ... would be very curious to see what the differences are when it comes to how they acquire their content, and how different screenreaders fare when fed these things
18:02:47 <adarose> q?
18:02:47 <Manishearth_> ... if there's a way we can make these experiences at least navigable from a user exp ... relatively similar, so people aren't coming to this completely confused as to the way it was built
18:02:50 <Manishearth_> q?
18:03:09 <Nick-Niantic> q+
18:03:13 <Manishearth_> ada: i think things like unity, when they're targeting the web, ...
18:03:27 <Manishearth_> .... things in the session or on the document itself  , they should be able to use it
18:04:09 <adarose> q?
18:04:11 <adarose> ack cabanier
18:04:16 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
18:04:18 <Manishearth_> ... because it's an new rendering mode, existing screenreaders would have to write addl apis to hook into it. needs to be easily accessible, not deeply ingrained in a way that you wouldn't get from the DOM tree + executed JS
18:05:11 <Manishearth_> cabanier: not sure if we ever wrote down results of a TPAC session about a lot of this
18:05:37 <Manishearth_> ada: hopefully minuted. wasn't our meeting, might be an a11y group
18:05:54 <Manishearth_> cabanier: at the time we thought we had something that covers most of what is needed by webxr
18:06:01 <cwilso> There was a workshop
18:06:13 <CharlesL> q?
18:06:17 <Manishearth_> ada: going to make a repo to start work here. it's going to have to be impld in the browser
18:06:30 <Brandel> cwilso: Do you have the link to the Webex?
18:06:38 <cwilso> https://www.w3.org/2019/08/inclusive-xr-workshop/papers/XR_User_Requirements_Position_Paper_draft.html
18:06:46 <bajones> q+ To point out https://github.com/WICG/aom
18:07:12 <Manishearth_> cwilso: <is banging on the gates>
18:07:35 <Manishearth_> fetchez la vache
18:07:45 <CharlesL> q?
18:08:17 <adarose> q?
18:08:21 <adarose> ack Jared
18:08:57 <adarose> q?
18:09:10 <Manishearth_> q+
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18:09:40 <Manishearth_> Jared: what kind of process exists to ensure we follow the success criteria that each spec has to have an a11y section
18:10:12 <Manishearth_> ada: we generally ensure that the webxr APIs are more accessible than what they are building on
18:10:36 <adarose> ack CharlesL
18:10:38 <Manishearth_> ... big problem is that devs aren't really using stuff we have at the per-spec level, doing something like this might work but nobody else is doing that kind of work
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18:10:58 <Manishearth_> Charles: The concept i was thinking of was the w3c registry
18:11:11 <Manishearth_> ... screenreaders already know how to navigate the DOM, that might make sense
18:11:33 <Manishearth_> ... as long as the new portions of the DOM get updated as you move around
18:12:07 <Manishearth_> ... parallel with the publishing group in the w3c, created a separate group
18:12:19 <Manishearth_> ada: regarding last point; pretty much all of our specs are done in parallel
18:12:25 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
18:12:27 <Manishearth_> ... so a module would fit in very well
18:12:54 <Manishearth_> Nick: conversation earlier, may want to consider a spec that's not only for web devs but also useful for unity/etc people
18:13:23 <Manishearth_> ... on one hand a thorny problem to solve at an api level. thinking of GLTF as a format; maybe a way to do a11y tags is as a part of the gltf spec
18:13:37 <Manishearth_> ... and then you have browser libs/etc that read source information in that scenegraph
18:14:07 <Manishearth_> ... not perfect, if you're not using GLTF and doing runtime stuff, there's no real recourse
18:14:17 <Manishearth_> ada: for the model tag discussion we're going to need this kind of thing
18:14:19 <Manishearth_> q?
18:14:21 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
18:14:57 <Manishearth_> Dylan: we can connect with the devs working with screenreaders
18:15:10 <Manishearth_> ... other thing is we can work with unity/etc people who need to integrate it
18:15:22 <Manishearth_> ... also need to figure out where we expose it at each level
18:15:39 <adarose> ack bajones
18:15:39 <Zakim> bajones, you wanted to point out https://github.com/WICG/aom
18:15:59 <Manishearth_> q?
18:16:19 <Manishearth_> bajones: at tpac 2022 we had a meeting with the a11y object model group, part of WICG
18:16:36 <Manishearth_> ... part of the programmatic extension of ARIA
18:16:48 <Manishearth_> ... can we make imperative canvas/webgl stuff more accessible
18:17:25 <Manishearth_> ... mostly just "everyone defines this through js". problem becomes "how do we motivate that". should continue to interface with them, they were quite interested in working with us
18:18:19 <Manishearth_> ... second point: idk how well this would apply here. One of the things we did to the webxr api was an abundance of labels. This is just for development purposes; so you can have good error messages
18:18:35 <Manishearth_> s/webxr/webgpu
18:18:44 <Manishearth_> ... appealing to dev's selfish nature here ... works!
18:19:00 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
18:19:09 <Manishearth_> ... anything we can do to make object-picking, debugging, etc easier; whatever carrot we can dangle, that would prob be good
18:19:35 <adarose> q?
18:19:38 <CharlesL> +1 to the a11y labels carrot for devs!
18:19:39 <Manishearth_> ada: reminded of Google driving SEO with this
18:19:40 <adarose> ack Manishearth_
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18:21:19 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
18:21:25 <Manishearth_> manish: note on process; we do have
18:21:57 <Manishearth_> ... a11y at CR review. if we want to do more than what the review requires we can also do that, tricky. generally in favor of having an a11y-focused model that other specs build on
18:22:10 <Manishearth_> Dylan: making things accessible makes it more readable to machines too
18:22:26 <Manishearth_> ... one hting we do is to get univs to teach a11y but also get people to work on these kinds of challenges
18:22:52 <CharlesL> q+
18:22:56 <Manishearth_> ... if there is oss code from this group, that's something we're interested in making easier to access
18:23:27 <Manishearth_> ... encourage people to reach out!!!
18:23:28 <adarose> q?
18:23:31 <adarose> ack CharlesL
18:23:55 <Dylan_XR_Access> Prototype for the people project - would be happy to add anything from this conversation that needs additional development muscle: https://xraccess.org/workstreams/prototype-for-the-people/
18:23:56 <Jared> I'm interested in that. Working on OSS WebXR samples now with lots of people in the community.
18:24:12 <adarose> q?
18:24:14 <Manishearth_> Dylan: what about building a11y checker tools
18:24:30 <Manishearth_> ada: currently not much existing , a lot of tooling is around rendering
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18:25:12 <Manishearth_> s/Dylan/Charles
18:25:32 <Manishearth_> Charles: might end up becoming a legal requirement, even.
18:25:38 <Manishearth_> ada: really pro there being a11y standards for XR
18:25:51 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
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18:26:04 <Manishearth_> ... lots of places won't do a11y unless legally mandated to do so
18:26:09 <adarose> q?
18:26:27 <Manishearth_> ... unsure if it's us or a different group
18:26:47 <adarose> q?
18:26:49 <Manishearth_> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
18:26:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Manishearth_
18:26:56 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
18:26:56 <Nick-Niantic> q+
18:26:57 <Manishearth_> Dylan: def agree
18:27:24 <Manishearth_> ... we need to surface text, even, at the AOM model /etc
18:27:40 <Manishearth_> ... do we have info for the xaur group
18:27:53 <Manishearth_> ... e.g. if you're in a social vr setting you should be able to tell where peoples' avatars are
18:28:17 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
18:28:24 <Manishearth_> ... ensure that the right concerns get directed to the right group
18:28:45 <Manishearth_> Nick: q for googlers: relatively recently Google transitioned Docs from being DOM-based to canvas-based
18:29:06 <Manishearth_> ... improves compat and smoothness, but now you have to reinvent a11y
18:29:33 <Manishearth_> bajones: idk about what efforts went through to make it accessible
18:30:20 <Manishearth_> ... i was under the impression that it had happened but recently i went spelunking and there was still some DOM there
18:30:40 <Manishearth_> ... so the transition may not be as complete
18:30:49 <Manishearth_> Nick: hm. find-in-page at least doesn't work
18:31:08 <Manishearth_> bajones: do not expect it was done in a way that was necessarily easy to replicate outside of google
18:31:29 <CharlesL> q?
18:32:04 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
18:32:12 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
18:32:22 <bajones> A relevant link for the Docs canvas transition: https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-Canvas-Based-Rendering-Update.html
18:32:22 <Manishearth_> Nick: interesting that Docs is kinda in the opposite situation where they're moving from a structured model to 2d rendering
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18:32:51 <adarose> q+
18:33:53 <Manishearth_> Dylan: path forward: do we work with folks like unity/8thwall/etc to come up with the solution? can we require users to use something
18:34:03 <Manishearth_> Nick: yeah even figuring out the level at which to do this is hard
18:34:22 <adarose> ack adarose
18:34:25 <adarose> q+
18:34:27 <adarose> ack adarose
18:34:30 <Manishearth_> Nick: At least for the 2d web the browser knows everything about what's going on, we're nowhere near that here
18:34:52 <Manishearth_> ada: one approach i'd like to take is have a go at speccing out an API to let libraries add the info needed
18:35:35 <Manishearth_> ... "this is a thing we're proposing, a11y, SEO, etc", showing it to the various people who it's relevant to
18:35:42 <Manishearth_> ... "does this fit with what you're building"
18:36:04 <Manishearth_> ... then we can approach the model people with "these libraries have ways to add things to rendering, but these models are opaque blobs"
18:36:30 <CharlesL> q+
18:36:33 <Manishearth_> q+
18:36:48 <Manishearth_> ada: even if we do something like that, it won't be useful in all situations
18:37:52 <Manishearth_> ... "there is a fox person in front of you with red ears and ..." is not necessarily as useful as "there is person A in front of you, they are walking away, slightly frowning" in many contexts
18:38:10 <Manishearth_> Dylan: our nsf grant is helping figure that out
18:38:34 <adarose> q?
18:38:37 <adarose> ack CharlesL
18:38:38 <Manishearth_> ada: have opinions about avatars on the web, think we need to drive standardization before we get into a problem
18:38:55 <Manishearth_> Charles: reach out to the various a11y groups at tpac?
18:39:06 <adarose> q?
18:39:08 <Manishearth_> ada: good call, haven't started assembling an agenda but can
18:39:11 <Yonet> q+
18:40:04 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
18:40:26 <adarose> q?
18:40:29 <adarose> ack Manishearth_
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18:43:52 <adarose> ack Yonet q?
18:43:59 <adarose> ack Yonet
18:45:25 <Manishearth_> Manish: a big diff b/w the 2d web and XR is that the 2d web can be represented as a roughly 1-dimensional thing ( a traverseable tree) with some jumping around, whereas for XR that's very ... not true; what is and isn't important; and how that changes over *time* leads to trickiness, and different applications will want to highlight different things. we do need something low level
18:45:41 <Manishearth_> Yonet: <offer to help Dylan and also solicit other help>
18:45:44 <Manishearth_> q?
18:45:44 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
18:46:27 <Manishearth_> Dylan: to give a sneak preview of the stuff we're doing, we did an AR thing to use e.g. the hololens for real spaces, to e.g. help blind people navigate to the right bus stop
18:46:52 <Manishearth_> ... when you try to make everything audible at once everything is irrelevant
18:47:01 <Jared> I am interested in participating in the accessibility initiative too.
18:47:10 <Yonet> Great
18:47:49 <Manishearth_> Dylan: would like help setting the group up
18:48:43 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 3
18:48:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- semantic-labels -- taken up [from atsushi]
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18:49:44 <CharlesL> scribe+
18:50:00 <CharlesL> agenda?
18:50:01 <adarose> https://github.com/immersive-web/semantic-labels/issues/4
18:50:12 <CharlesL> zakim, take up item 3
18:50:12 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- semantic-labels -- taken up [from atsushi]
18:50:59 <Manishearth_> cabanier: planes give you the different surfaces, hti testing lets you point rays at things and see the intersections
18:51:09 <Jared> Is there a link for this issue?
18:51:21 <CharlesL> Rik: quest browser gives back planes / etc. where in real world. not sure what you are hitting / planes you are hitting etc.  user has to manually set up the room and what those objects are, table chair etc.
18:51:33 <Manishearth_> ... but you don't know what you're actually hitting. in quest the user tells us what their things are when they set stuff up (manually). we want to expose that to webxr
18:51:48 <Manishearth_> ... so you know if something is a door or window or something
18:51:56 <Yonet> Jared https://github.com/immersive-web/semantic-labels/issues/4
18:52:27 <CharlesL> … update two existing specs.  in the array of attributes single DOM string attibute.
18:52:31 <bajones> q+
18:52:40 <CharlesL> … set up a repo that defines all that.
18:52:52 <Manishearth_> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
18:52:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Manishearth_
18:53:00 <adarose> q?
18:53:02 <adarose> ack bajones
18:53:32 <CharlesL> bajones: topic came up before.  only expose metadata on hits correct>: Yes
18:54:03 <CharlesL> … hit tests could get a rough idea, as you point you can have items call out
18:54:37 <CharlesL> … curious expected use cases?  if I can only get back the real item you are pointing at in the real world
18:54:59 <bialpio> q+
18:55:07 <CharlesL> Rik: plaines API,  Meshes API.  you can query all the planes in a scene
18:55:31 <CharlesL> … quest browser this website, gives link to the privacy policy on what data you are giving up.
18:56:00 <CharlesL> … if you are putting furnature in a room you put it on the floor. and likewise a paining should be put on a wall and not a window.
18:56:15 <Yonet> ack bialpio
18:57:20 <CharlesL> bialpio: know there are some products that exists that label context "mask" of what user sees would annotate every pixel.  if devices do opperate like this how do we expose this info through the API.  where is the Sky etc.
18:57:41 <bajones> q+
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18:58:30 <CharlesL> … wonders annotated buffer, we may not know where all the pixels are.  table top board games where is the table?  how do we integrate with a buffered approach limited APIs limit to bitmask, sky vs. wall, vs. window.
18:58:55 <CharlesL> Rik: going outside is still unsolved for VR.  tied to the room, even walking between rooms.
18:59:20 <CharlesL> … not really implemented correctly.  Semantic Labelling comes from OpenXR.
18:59:59 <CharlesL> … would be an optional label.
19:00:20 <Yonet> ack bajones
19:00:26 <Nick-Niantic> q+
19:00:45 <CharlesL> bajones: assume real world meshing paired with semantic labels, would this help with the tagged buffer?
19:01:19 <CharlesL> ???: will there be a viewport like the sky?
19:02:04 <CharlesL> bajones: if I am in my living room and I can label couch / chair, but when I go outside I won't know there is a mountain vs.. sky.
19:02:45 <CharlesL> ???: No confidence level could be useful, tagged buffer could expose confidence level.  I am looking for problems here not sure if they are real.
19:02:59 <CharlesL> … we need to make sure the API is flexible
19:03:18 <CharlesL> bajones: masking out sky, star chart AI.
19:03:32 <CharlesL> … anyone know what they are using for masking out the sky in those applications.
19:05:09 <Yonet> ack Nick-Niantic
19:05:16 <CharlesL> Nick:we employ two scenes and one with a mask over it.
19:05:21 <Yonet> https://github.com/immersive-web/semantic-labels
19:05:31 <CharlesL> … do you what they are a list of semantic labels?
19:05:36 <Yonet> https://github.com/immersive-web/semantic-labels#list-of-semantic-labels-for-webxr
19:05:43 <lgombos> q+
19:05:47 <CharlesL> RiK: you can add more.
19:05:50 <Dylan_XR_Access> Desk, couch, floor ceiling, wall, door, window, other
19:06:19 <Yonet> ack lgombos
19:06:34 <CharlesL> … other right now is undefined right now empty
19:06:58 <CharlesL> … if you manually draw a table it won't have the semantics.  one label per object.
19:07:41 <CharlesL> Ada: is it an array of 1 item.  table and round table, brown table.
19:08:01 <CharlesL> Rik: we should not invent it now.
19:08:28 <CharlesL> … confidence level, I don't like that pushes the decision to the developer, avoid conf. level would be good.
19:08:35 <bialpio> q+
19:10:03 <CharlesL> Nick: confidence level: content fades out along the edges, having confidence level is helpful.  per pixel confidence level.
19:10:26 <CharlesL> Rik: Depth.
19:11:09 <CharlesL> ??: AI-Core could give you depth information. one issue about that.  consider how to expose this.  one buffer with both confidence level and data but they changed that.
19:11:11 <Dylan_XR_Access> q?
19:11:24 <Yonet> ack bialpio
19:11:29 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
19:11:45 <CharlesL> bialpio: open XR coming from Meta.
19:11:58 <CharlesL> … who implements the extension.
19:12:11 <Yonet> ack Dylan_XR_Access
19:12:13 <bialpio> q+
19:12:47 <CharlesL> Dylan: a11y impact being able to label whats in the users env. is very important and where the edges are, edge enhancement around the boarders very important.
19:12:59 <Yonet> ack bialpio
19:13:06 <CharlesL> Rik: quest we do this so you don't trip over the edge of an object.
19:13:49 <Nick-Niantic> q+
19:14:04 <CharlesL> bialpio: Computer vision if we do expose the confidence levels it may not render, it may ignore if a table has 30% confidence it may not render it, but leaving it up to AI is probably not a good idea.
19:14:17 <Dylan_XR_Access> "The difference between something that might go wrong and something that can't possibly go wrong is that when the thing that can't possibly go wrong goes wrong, it's generally much harder to get at and fix." -Douglas Adams
19:14:34 <bajones> q+
19:14:38 <CharlesL> … making sure we don't paint ourselves in a corner, make sure sky detection with blending sky not sky works for this.
19:14:59 <Yonet> ack Nick-Niantic
19:15:32 <CharlesL> Nick: hit test for meshes / planes as headsets go outdoors. bulding meshes outside may be challenging.  may be useful lables per vertex not per mesh. this region of a scene is a bush or tree.
19:15:58 <CharlesL> RiK: could have 1000's of vertices
19:16:13 <CharlesL> Nick: could be used to place content in a smart way.
19:16:55 <CharlesL> … having labels per plane could be useful but outdoors could have multiple meshes for multiple objects.
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19:17:06 <CharlesL> Rik: Is there hardware?
19:17:06 <Brandel> q?
19:17:21 <CharlesL> Nick: there are classifiers mesh generation from scanning.
19:18:38 <CharlesL> bajones: which methods expose which data.  Are these semantic labels / classifications and ability to add to it later.  planes, pixels, meshes, pixels.  seems to make sense.  propose: we should have a registry of semantic labels.
19:19:41 <CharlesL> … image based masked different pixels be labelled / confidence levels etc.  give each of these values anoon. we should have concrete values an integer value for each label.
19:20:00 <CharlesL> … Sounds like semantic labels is Yes.
19:20:44 <Yonet> ack bajones
19:20:50 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:20:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html CharlesL
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20:30:28 <Brandel> present+
20:30:29 <adarose> zakim, choose a victim
20:30:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Brandel
20:30:35 <cabanier> scribenick cabanier
20:30:40 <adarose> zakim, choose a victim
20:30:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose lajava
20:30:44 <Leonard> Leonard has joined #immersive-web
20:30:46 <Leonard> ... email: Dylan [AT] xraccess [DOT] orgpresent+
20:30:58 <Leonard> ... email: Dylan [AT] xraccess [DOT] orgpresent+
20:31:01 <Leonard> present+
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20:31:36 <jfernandez> present+
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20:31:36 <Marisha> present+
20:31:37 <adarose> present+
20:31:42 <CharlesL> present+
20:31:42 <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
20:31:43 <marcosc> present+
20:31:43 <Jared> present+
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20:31:49 <cabanier> topic: Model Element
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20:31:53 <kdashg> present+
20:32:03 <cabanier> marcosc: not much has been done since the last meeting
20:32:13 <cabanier> ... mostly because the needed stuff is easy
20:32:27 <cabanier> ... the issue is that we need to agree that model is a good idea
20:32:41 <Leonard> q+
20:32:43 <cabanier> ... I was waiting for mozilla's position, standard's position
20:32:54 <cabanier> ... I'm unsure cwilso has an opinion
20:32:54 <Jared> Is there an issue for this topic?
20:33:05 <cabanier> ... there's more question that I've been grappling with?
20:33:09 <cwilso> s/I'm unsure/I think/
20:33:13 <cabanier> ... like is this a media element?
20:33:29 <cabanier> ... is it like a 3d video? What about a11y?
20:33:44 <cabanier> ... how do we describe the accessibility of it?
20:34:04 <cabanier> ... we have a bunch of web content that moves and that has a11y content
20:34:14 <cabanier> ... one of the elephants is the format
20:34:25 <cabanier> ... I'm not pushing but we have gltf and usdz
20:34:34 <cabanier> ... and we designed it format agnostic
20:34:46 <Jared> Okay, is this related to https://modelviewer.dev/ ?
20:34:48 <cabanier> ... there's going to be an industry push for a standard format
20:35:06 <cabanier> ... how are we going to work out the format issues? We're going to have a conversation about that
20:35:09 <adarose> q?
20:35:15 <cabanier> ... this is roughly where we're at
20:35:16 <Marisha> q+
20:35:28 <cabanier> ... in webkit we landed width/height attributes
20:35:30 <bajones> q+
20:35:39 <adarose> ack Leonard
20:35:40 <cabanier> ... (ccormack worked on that for half a day)
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20:35:45 <cabanier> ... feedback please
20:35:57 <kdashg> q+
20:36:00 <cabanier> Leonard: fundamentally this is a good idea to display 3d format
20:36:09 <cabanier> ... but there are a whole bunch of issue
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20:36:24 <cabanier> ... like how to ensure render quality, animation, interactivity
20:36:34 <cabanier> ... how do you get the camera in the scene
20:36:45 <cabanier> ... it's really hard to solve these issue
20:36:50 <marcosc> q+
20:37:02 <cabanier> ... the formats are going to be an issue but the concept should work out first
20:37:19 <cabanier> marcosc: I didn't really mean that easy :-)
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20:37:30 <cabanier> ... you are right that rendering is quite hard
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20:37:39 <cabanier> ... and those are things that I need help with defining
20:37:39 <Nick-Niantic> q+
20:37:39 <adarose> ack Marisha
20:37:47 <cabanier> ... I'm unsure if they will be easy
20:37:50 <marcosc> q-
20:37:53 <Brandel> q+
20:38:23 <cabanier> Leonard: in the issues, the specs are out of sync (??)
20:38:30 <cabanier> marcosc: we don't have versions in html
20:38:54 <cabanier> ... it's not trivial. there are test suites that may have fidelity
20:39:05 <cabanier> ... there is not the idea that we have version
20:39:14 <cabanier> ... specs can move faster than implementations
20:39:27 <cabanier> ... there is nothing process wise from making progress quickly
20:39:46 <cabanier> ... I don't want to merge things in the spec without other implementor feedback
20:39:58 <adarose> ack Marisha
20:39:58 <cabanier> ... I don't want to add prototype-y stuff
20:40:19 <cabanier> Marisha: it came up earlier that webxr is a black box
20:40:38 <cabanier> ... there is a huge number of developers that can't participate because it's so complicated
20:40:48 <Dylan_XR_Access> q?
20:40:59 <adarose> ack bajones
20:40:59 <cabanier> ... the web is inherintly semantic so the model would be very helpful
20:41:21 <cabanier> bajones: I think that the desire is understandable
20:41:32 <cabanier> ... especially in light of the a11y discussion
20:41:43 <cabanier> ... for developers that don't want to do the imperative thing
20:41:55 <cabanier> ... but my issue is that this feels like an unbounded space
20:42:26 <cabanier> ... working on webgpu and webxr, when talking about the model tag, what can the web already do that does that
20:42:46 <cabanier> ... three.js, babylon can add on new modules and grow in complexity forever
20:42:53 <cabanier> ... which is ok for a user space library
20:43:13 <cabanier> ... but I'm not comfortable with that on a web spec
20:43:22 <cwilso> +1
20:43:25 <cabanier> ... I don't want to become unreal engine in a tag
20:43:32 <cwilso> q+
20:43:35 <cabanier> ... is there a reasonable way to cap that complexity
20:43:49 <cabanier> ...is there something that we're willing to limit it to?
20:44:13 <cabanier> ... I don't know what the escape values are looking like
20:44:31 <cabanier> ... getting gpu buffers from the model tag is likely not a solution
20:44:49 <cabanier> ... we'd feel much better if there was a clear scope of work
20:44:52 <Leonard> q+
20:44:56 <cabanier> marcosc: I couldn't agree more
20:45:19 <cabanier> ... I though you were going to mention the video element
20:45:29 <cabanier> ... which is what I'm envisioning
20:45:42 <cabanier> ... given a file, render something on the screen
20:46:01 <cabanier> bajones: I've had conversation about glb/usdz
20:46:17 <cabanier> ... because people think that you can just extend it
20:46:34 <cabanier> ... we really don't want to add things like hair rendering
20:46:46 <Leonard> USD connectors are the extension mechanism
20:46:53 <cabanier> ... even gltf has a bunch of extensions
20:46:54 <adarose> q+
20:47:06 <cabanier> ... things like refraction index, thickness of glass
20:47:15 <cabanier> ... there should be a line
20:47:30 <cabanier> ... and there's a temptation to keep pushing the line
20:48:02 <cabanier> dulce: physics is a big problem in xr and you will always be pushing that
20:48:35 <cabanier> bajones: for context, babylon worked with the havok team so now we have high quality physics for the web
20:48:46 <cabanier> ... do physics need to be part of the web?
20:49:07 <cabanier> ... will this reduce the complexity? People will want to push the line
20:49:13 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
20:49:19 <cabanier> Marisha: do you see a cap?
20:49:28 <cabanier> bajones: I don't know what that is
20:49:39 <cabanier> ... but it shouldn't be infinity
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20:50:10 <cabanier> ... I think we can find something that doesn't require us to build a new silo
20:50:24 <cabanier> marcosc: how did video cope with that?
20:50:48 <cabanier> bajones: mpeg spec has a lot of extensions that nobody implements
20:51:03 <cabanier> ... if we look at how video is actually used, they are very complex
20:51:15 <cabanier> ... but in terms of behavior they are well bounded
20:51:35 <cabanier> ... nobody expects all the pixels have physics attributes
20:51:43 <cabanier> ... which could be reasonable for the model tag
20:52:01 <cabanier> marcosc: why don't I think that back to the usd team?
20:52:13 <cabanier> ... how do we limit it so it doesn't get out of hand
20:52:16 <Leonard> glTF team does not to limit the capabilities
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20:52:50 <cabanier> bajones: in the case of gltf, we'd likely support the base spec and a limited set of extension
20:53:02 <cabanier> ... I'm sure there's a similar set for usd
20:53:12 <adarose> q?
20:53:12 <cabanier> marcosc: that is important to take back
20:53:35 <cabanier> kdashg: the format is the primary concern
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20:54:01 <Manishearth_> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
20:54:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Manishearth_
20:54:08 <cabanier> ... it would be bad if authors would have to provide 2 formats so it works everywhere
20:54:08 <cabanier> ... we need 1 path forward
20:54:28 <cabanier> ... whatever we do, we still going to be subsetting it
20:54:42 <cabanier> ... this is what happened with webm with matroshka
20:54:44 <Manishearth_> scribenick: cabanier
20:54:59 <cabanier> ... where webm is a subset
20:55:10 <cabanier> ... and it's explicitly cut down
20:55:30 <cabanier> ... so we'd need to do the same. People shouldn't have to experiment
20:55:39 <cabanier> ... use cases are also important
20:56:04 <cabanier> ... generally we don't see the model tag as something that makes it easier to draw 3d content
20:56:23 <cabanier> ... we're handling 3d content well today
20:56:33 <cabanier> ... we're focusing on narrower use cases
20:56:54 <cabanier> ... some of the things there. For instance priviliged interactions
20:57:16 <cabanier> ... like an AR scenario where you'd not need to give depth information to the web site
20:57:25 <cabanier> ... so it would work with untrusted website
20:57:48 <cabanier> ... the other thing is that you can interact with other priviliged content like iframes
20:58:03 <cabanier> ... which is what we should be focusing on. Triage our efforts
20:58:22 <cabanier> ... and not focus on making something it can already do easier. Focus on what it can't do
20:58:41 <cabanier> ... it's going to be really tempting to show a demo
20:58:46 <Manishearth_> s/Is there an issue for this topic?/scribe: cabanier/
20:58:48 <Manishearth_> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
20:58:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Manishearth_
20:58:57 <cabanier> ... dropping a model in an area scene
20:59:00 <adarose> q?
20:59:02 <cabanier> ... we can already do
20:59:04 <adarose> ack kdashg
20:59:06 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
20:59:13 <cabanier> Nick-Niantic: obviously there's a lot here.
20:59:17 <cwilso> +1 to "focus on what doesn't demo well, rather than what does demo well."
20:59:20 <cabanier> ... echoing what other people say
20:59:20 <Manishearth_> s/scribenick cabanier/scribenick: cabanier/
20:59:23 <Manishearth_> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
20:59:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Manishearth_
20:59:46 <cabanier> ... models are easy and accessible on the web today
21:00:02 <cabanier> ... with very little markup you can embed a model on the web today
21:00:24 <cabanier> ... we don't see a lot of wanting to stop at a model
21:00:42 <cabanier> ... most use cases require a dynamic presentation
21:01:05 <cabanier> ... for instance, change a color on a model, you don't want to download a new model for each color
21:01:17 <cabanier> ... usually you have a bit of code to draw animations
21:01:41 <cabanier> ... running in offline mode is less compelling than something that is prebaked
21:01:52 <cabanier> marcosc: can you talk more about swapping in a model?
21:02:06 <cabanier> Nick-Niantic: I can show it on my screen
21:02:21 <Leonard> glTF has KHR_materials_variants that holds multiple materials for a single model
21:03:27 <cabanier> ... (demoing) this is an example of website with different model
21:03:59 <cabanier> ... this is telling aframe to make changes
21:04:12 <cabanier> ... other cases are character cameras
21:04:25 <bialpio_> (additional case study: model viewer which uses glTF, but don't ask me how it works internally: https://modelviewer.dev/examples/scenegraph/#swapTextures)
21:04:28 <cabanier> ... on the one hand, I agree that complexity can grow high
21:04:43 <cabanier> ... I don't agree that low complexity is what we want
21:04:51 <cabanier> marcosc: (????)
21:05:04 <cabanier> Nick-Niantic: enough functionality grows quickly
21:05:38 <cabanier> ... talking about 3D video, holograms are popular. (volumetric captures)
21:05:55 <cabanier> ... for the need of the market, there are a lot of formats to consider
21:06:26 <cabanier> marcosc: we don't know what's coming down the pipe
21:06:40 <cabanier> Nick-Niantic: yes but we shouldn't limit us too much at the start
21:06:59 <cabanier> ... a lot of the interesting cases with the video tag
21:07:11 <cabanier> ... applying video interestingly in a 3d space
21:07:34 <cabanier> ... where if you were to have a model tag, the question is how to get vertices and textures out of the model
21:07:40 <cabanier> ... so it's limited that way
21:08:20 <cabanier> ... we talked about gltf extensions, where they might grow and be extended over time
21:08:42 <cabanier> ... maybe we add semantic information inside the gltf
21:09:05 <cabanier> ... if the model tag is too limited, people will become frustrated
21:09:15 <cabanier> ... finally, we were talking about a11y
21:09:27 <cabanier> ... this could be embedded with the model
21:09:46 <cabanier> ... what we want is an annotated scene graph like what aframe lets you do?
21:10:01 <cabanier> marcosc: what does aframe do with a11y?
21:10:21 <cabanier> Nick-Niantic: aframe lets you declare your scene as html in dom elements
21:10:38 <cabanier> ... this lets you hook into the browser a11y engine
21:11:09 <cabanier> ... it won't work out of the box today but it might require a new rendering engine
21:11:15 <adarose> q?
21:11:43 <cabanier> ... in short the key is without a lot care, a model element is not as useful as what's in the market today
21:11:51 <adarose> ack Brandel
21:11:52 <cabanier> ... what is the better more useful thing
21:12:07 <cabanier> Brandel: as someone who plays on the internet a lot
21:12:17 <cabanier> ... we're always going to be disappointed
21:12:32 <cabanier> ... to that end, I'm not concerned.
21:12:56 <cabanier> ... what we need to find is the bare minimum that is useful
21:13:37 <cabanier> ... I was looking at the model proposal. we talk about using the environment map without needing a user request
21:13:47 <cabanier> ... or without needing access to the textures
21:14:19 <cabanier> ... on the complexity, we should aim at what is the simplest thing possible
21:14:35 <cabanier> ... and we should focus on the benefits
21:14:45 <cabanier> ... knowing that there is more content in the future
21:15:14 <cabanier> cwilso: my biggest concern is that if a lot of functionality is in the format, that is problematic
21:15:33 <cabanier> ... this moves interop to a spec
21:15:49 <cabanier> ... implementations can put things together quickly
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21:16:07 <cabanier> ... safari use their usdz component to implement their model
21:16:24 <cabanier> ... and now everyone else has to use the same component
21:16:40 <cabanier> ... there are massive layers of features that need to be implemented
21:16:53 <Dylan_XR_Access> q?
21:17:01 <cabanier> ... if hair rendering was added, the model spec didn't change but the implementation did
21:17:18 <cabanier> ... people don't like to implement multiple formats
21:17:34 <cabanier> ... focussing on what demoes well is indeed the wrong thing
21:17:47 <cabanier> ... do people remember activex?
21:17:57 <cabanier> ... people could build fallbacks but didn't
21:18:13 <cabanier> ... this kept internet explorer alive
21:18:34 <cabanier> ... baking this much complexity in an engine without a web spec, is hard
21:18:41 <marcosc> q+
21:18:53 <cabanier> ... you don't want to expose things to user or developer code
21:19:03 <cabanier> ... the boundaries have to be part of the standard
21:19:16 <cabanier> ... I'm worried that this is going to create a massive interop fracture
21:19:32 <cabanier> ... HTML should have defined an image and video format
21:19:51 <cabanier> ... and an audio one because we still don't have good ones today :-)
21:19:55 <cwilso> ack me
21:20:06 <cwilso> ack dylan
21:20:13 <cabanier> Dylan_XR_Access: we were talking about how much we want to push it
21:20:25 <cabanier> ... from usability perspective
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21:20:54 <cabanier> ... I'm wondering, are there certain things that we bake into this tag?
21:21:02 <cabanier> ... is it controlled by the user?
21:21:16 <cabanier> ... should we define the core things that are part of the tag?
21:21:25 <cabanier> ... where does it all fit into it?
21:21:56 <cwilso> ack ada
21:22:19 <cabanier> adarose: one benefit is that it won't render the same on different devices
21:22:52 <cabanier> ... if I want to show a model on a watch I don't want to use expensive shader or refractions
21:23:17 <cabanier> ... but if I show it on a high end computer, I would want all those expensive things turned on
21:23:32 <cabanier> ... if you want to be pixel perfect, webgl is the thing to do
21:23:42 <cabanier> ... different renditions is a feature an not a bug
21:23:46 <Marisha> q+
21:23:47 <adarose> q?
21:23:50 <cwilso> q+ to point out but if it looks better on Apple watch than on Samsung watch...
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21:24:16 <cabanier> Leonard: many of the engines already have an idea of device capabilities
21:24:39 <cabanier> ... the bigger issue is that they should look the same on the different browser on the same device
21:24:42 <bkardell_> present+
21:25:09 <cabanier> ... you can differentiate but different browser should have the same rendering engine
21:25:23 <cabanier> ... usd is not a format, it's an api
21:25:45 <cabanier> ... making a new format takes at least 2 years
21:26:05 <cabanier> marcosc: we estimate that any spec takes 5 years :-)
21:26:13 <cwilso> ack leonard
21:26:20 <cwilso> ack marcos
21:26:33 <cabanier> ... having a single format, we've not seen such a thing
21:26:55 <cabanier> ... we've seen disasters happen with formats. We've seen implementations becoming the standard
21:27:03 <cabanier> ... we generally understand what we want
21:27:18 <cabanier> ... if we do it in the w3c, we could all agree
21:27:32 <cabanier> ... we could decide today to just use usdz
21:27:41 <cabanier> ... but it's going to be challenging
21:27:42 <bajones> <narrator>: They did not all agree.
21:27:46 <adarose> q?
21:28:07 <cabanier> Leonard: the modelviewer tag can do most of what you're talking about
21:28:24 <cabanier> ... you should have demos that shows what modelviewer can't do
21:28:57 <cabanier> ... show what the community with model tag what can't be done with other capabilities
21:29:51 <cabanier> ... there was a discussion about gltf extensions, if the model tag allows them it would break the system
21:30:07 <cabanier> marcosc: we would only do that across browser vendors
21:30:28 <cabanier> ... like anything in ecmascript. there's a standard and aim for the same shipping date
21:30:42 <cabanier> Leonard: so it's extensions for browser?
21:30:45 <adarose> ack Marisha
21:31:06 <cabanier> Marisha: why can't we just decide to not have 2 supported formats?
21:31:19 <Leonard> USD is not a format. It is an API
21:31:53 <cabanier> bajones: there are platform isues. adding usdz is easy for apple but hard for other
21:32:10 <cabanier> ... usd is not a standard. it's basicaly a black box
21:32:47 <cabanier> ... you can put a lot of things in usd but apple will only render their own content
21:32:58 <Leonard> q+
21:33:06 <cabanier> Marisha: is there is no desire for USDZ a standard format
21:33:19 <cabanier> bajones: there is no really standard
21:33:30 <Leonard> q+
21:33:32 <cabanier> Marisha: is there no document?
21:33:44 <cabanier> marcosc: there's a github repo and a reference renderer
21:33:48 <Leonard> q-
21:34:01 <cabanier> kdashg: this is not surmountable
21:34:30 <cabanier> ... the video codec space, many millions of users can't decode h264 video because of  patents
21:34:59 <cabanier> ... it's because authors just use their defacto assets
21:35:22 <cabanier> ... people choose the easiest and then users have problems
21:35:40 <cabanier> ... we as browser vendors can't tear things apart and repackage it
21:35:43 <cwilso> +1
21:35:50 <adarose> q?
21:35:55 <adarose> ack cwilso
21:35:55 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to point out but if it looks better on Apple watch than on Samsung watch...
21:36:27 <cabanier> cwilso: the problem with having 2 formats, does that mean that they are both required?
21:36:39 <cabanier> ... that means that they are not web standards
21:36:51 <cabanier> ... you end up exploring what works in browser a and not browser b
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21:37:12 <cabanier> ... and we have a responsibility to make things interoperable
21:37:43 <cabanier> .. yes, things can look look different on different devices but it should be roughly the same on similar devices
21:37:54 <cabanier> adarose: let's wrap it up there
21:38:08 <Leonard> Thanks you Ada. Is there any TODOs or TakeAways tasks from this discussion?
21:38:31 <adarose> https://hackmd.io/@jgilbert/imm-web-unconf
21:39:16 <Marisha> scribe: Marisha
21:40:01 <Marisha> Emmanuel: we implemented keyboard integration for the user to trigger keyboard and use for input - first point of feedback was wanting to control where the keyboard appears
21:40:18 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 5
21:40:18 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- navigation#13 Let's have a chat about Navigation at the facetoface -- taken up [from atsushi]
21:40:30 <adarose> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1321
21:40:43 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 6
21:40:43 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- webxr#1273 Next steps for raw camera access -- taken up [from atsushi]
21:40:58 <bajones> q?
21:40:58 <atsushi> s|agendum 5 -- navigation#13 Let's have a chat about Navigation at the facetoface -- taken up [from atsushi]||
21:41:02 <bajones> q+
21:41:06 <Nick-Niantic> q+
21:41:07 <atsushi> s|agendum 6 -- webxr#1273 Next steps for raw camera access -- taken up [from atsushi]||
21:41:09 <adarose> q?
21:41:12 <adarose> ack bajones
21:41:13 <Marisha> Emmanuel: We currently provide z-position but looking for feedback about what folks think about availability for positioning:
21:41:43 <Marisha> bajones: What level of control do native apps have around this (like OpenXR or old Oculus APIs)? Or do native apps invent their own wheel here
21:41:50 <Marisha> Emmanuel: Not sure what native apps do
21:42:06 <atsushi> i/Emmanuel: we implemented/topic webxr#1321 Control over system keyboard's positioning
21:42:12 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
21:42:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
21:42:19 <Marisha> cabanier: There's maybe an OpenXR extension for this... Emmanuel what do you do?
21:42:22 <Marisha> Emmanuel: This is brand new, not very mature
21:43:00 <atsushi> s/topic webxr#1321/topic: webxr#1321/
21:43:02 <Marisha> bajones: Maybe it's too soon to try to standardize?
21:43:18 <Marisha> cabanier: there are standards in Unity that are used as an Android-ism
21:43:53 <Marisha> cabanier: If you are in Android, you can specify where on the screen the input is, and the keyboard will try to move itself to that position
21:44:22 <Marisha> cabanier: In immersive, that goes away
21:44:29 <adarose> q?
21:44:49 <CharlesL> q+
21:45:37 <Marisha> bajones: The thing that makes sense is to specify the bounds/coords of the input rect. But maybe that's more complicated than what I'm thinking (what if someone specifies 3mi away) - unless you want devs to specify exact coordinates where they want keyboard to appear
21:45:58 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
21:45:59 <Marisha> Emmanuel: Right now the keyboard renders at the same depth as the cylinder
21:47:00 <Marisha> Nick-Niantic: When I think about the placement of content, there are the nuances of the current scene + the current viewer. Asking developers to navigate that complexity can be challenging. Could offload some of the complexity onto the user and let them determine a better spot
21:48:00 <Marisha> Nick-Niantic: We had a project with a dom-tablet where you can pull things in and out of the 3D space - the way this was moved around was by grabbing and moving it in a radius around yourself, and follows you when you walk around. Making it easy for the user to move the keyboard is best.
21:48:02 <adarose> ack CharlesL q?
21:48:06 <adarose> ack CharlesL
21:48:33 <Marisha> CharlesL: From an accessibility point of view, a person with low vision may need keyboard to be in a very specific spot
21:48:37 <adarose> q?
21:49:11 <Marisha> Dylan_XR_Access: We've heard from folks that to read things they usually bring things close to their face, but they often can't do that in an XR environment. Ideally we'd have system settings for this
21:49:34 <Marisha> cabanier: This is the system keyboard so if it adds accessibility settings, you'd get that part for free like high contrast or letters size
21:49:55 <Marisha> cabanier: It could be a pain for the user to be able to move the keyboard
21:50:18 <Nick-Niantic> q+
21:50:37 <Marisha> bajones: The two things are not mutually exclusive - can make the keyboard not occlude the input, but also make it moveable for users.
21:51:00 <Marisha> bajones: The worst case scenario is two different platforms that have two different conventions for where the keyboard is placed, giving inconsistent results to users
21:51:34 <adarose> q?
21:51:40 <Marisha> bajones: You don't want to rely on user's control of the keyboard but should enable it
21:52:00 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
21:52:02 <Marisha> Emmanuel: Team is still working on "Follow" functionality vs fixed w/ a toggle. This gets to the question of how we surface this to webxr devs
21:52:59 <Marisha> Nick-Niantic: *Showing demo on screen* This is the dom-tablet, it's not a burden, it's easy for users to use and place wherever they want
21:53:51 <Marisha> Nick-Niantic: If they get too far away from it it will also follow the user. An idiom like this is useful. Also we'd love this (dom content) as a native WebXR feature.
21:54:09 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
21:54:14 <adarose> q?
21:54:18 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
21:54:45 <adarose> q+
21:55:00 <adarose> ack adarose
21:55:04 <Marisha> Dylan_XR_Access: Something that comes to mind when it comes to interaction - we don't want  just pointing, should have equivalents to tab, enter, gaze controls, etc, because there will be folks that have trouble pointing and need things like arrow keys
21:55:52 <Marisha> adarose: One heavily-requested feature has been DOM-overlay for VR, or some kind of DOM layer for XR that's interactive. But as much as it's desired, it's very difficult to implement. It's been discussed for years without a lot of movement.
21:56:01 <Marisha> Nick-Niantic: We can offer our existing implementation as a reference.
21:56:16 <Marisha> Dylan_XR_Access: What part of this is being handled by the WebXR vs the system?
21:56:46 <Marisha> adarose: There's a rectangle that the user is carrying around that has the HTML content on it, with all the accessibility features you'd expect for HTML.
21:57:10 <Marisha> adaores: Currently all we have is DOM Overlay which is only applicable to handheld mixed reality experiences. It's difficult to establish what it should do in virtual reality
21:57:37 <Marisha> s/adaores/adarose/
21:57:56 <Emmanuel> q+
21:58:10 <Marisha> bajones: There's a demo for this and how you can take content and display it, but no one has described how this should work for virtual reality specifically
21:58:18 <adarose> ack Emmanuel
21:59:09 <Marisha> Emmanuel: These are great discussions: touching on some of the accessibility - one of the features for a system keyboard that will provide a strip at the top to show what content is in the input that is being modified.
21:59:19 <adarose> q?
22:00:05 <Manishearth_> Manishearth_ has joined #immersive-web
22:00:17 <Manishearth_> q+
22:00:34 <Marisha> Rigel: when thinking about text input in VR: hand tracking is becoming more popular, the raycaster handheld approach means that the keyboard is beyond the reach of your own hands. But with hand tracking you want something more touch type, and have to think about the distance from the user, have to think about input methods
22:01:08 <Marisha> bajones: If the system has been designed such that the keyboard can be accessed via touch typing, it should bring up a hands-friendly version of the keyboard. The system should know what input method is being used.
22:01:23 <Manishearth_> q-
22:01:43 <atsushi> topic: proposals#83 Proposal for panel distance API in VR
22:01:52 <Marisha> TOPIC: Proposal for panel distance API
22:01:54 <adarose> Proposal for panel distance API in VR
22:02:05 <Marisha> Bryce: I'm an engineer from the Browser team at Meta
22:02:20 <adarose> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/83
22:02:36 <Marisha> Bryce: This is outside the context of WebXR, it is about exposing the distance of a virtual 2D panel to the user
22:03:02 <Marisha> Bryce: This could be like for a weather application - what is displayed depends on how close the user is to the panel.
22:03:27 <Marisha> Bryce: Another example is a picture window effect, as you get closer to it you can see more and more what is "outside" the picture window
22:03:30 <mkeblx> q+
22:03:38 <adarose> q+
22:04:04 <adarose> ack mkeblx
22:04:04 <Marisha> Bryce: Do those examples make sense? At a high level - is there any precedent around this?  Has it already been attempted? Just want to open up to the group for questions and considerations.
22:04:11 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
22:05:12 <Marisha> mkeblx: You alluded to the idea of a picture changing size - previous ideas in this group are things like a magic picture app - you don't have just the distance but also orientation and user's position relative to the screen. Do people still want that even though we dropped it for a long time? And would your idea be a subset of our previous idea
22:05:16 <Jared> q+
22:05:25 <Nick-Niantic> q+
22:05:31 <adarose> ack adarose
22:05:39 <cabanier> q+
22:05:40 <Marisha> mkeblx: Another similar feature is the magic leap browser which exposed not just position but orientation via Javascript
22:06:32 <adarose> q?
22:06:33 <Marisha> adarose: One concern is that it could potentially be a privacy vulnerability. Maybe users don't want you to know if they're sitting or standing, where their head is in relation to the panel. I don't like the idea of giving user position to web pages.
22:06:36 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
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22:07:00 <bajones_> q+
22:07:10 <Brandel> q+
22:07:19 <Marisha> Dylan_XR_Access: For some folks, being able to get close is necessary to see something. If it suddenly changes, that could be frustrating to users. But if that's something the user could control or have a setting for, that could be a feature.
22:07:22 <adarose> q?
22:07:25 <adarose> ack Jared
22:07:35 <Marisha> Jared: What is a panel app?
22:07:59 <Marisha> Bryce: Panel app in this context is just a 2D Browser outside of the context of WebXR. If you're in VR viewing a standard 2D browser window
22:08:01 <adarose> q?
22:08:03 <bkardell_> q+
22:08:03 <bialpio_> q+
22:08:04 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic
22:08:48 <Marisha> Nick-Niantic: My understanding from previously is that there were non-immersive modes to the WebXR spec that were meant to handle cases like this. If you wanted to have DOM content but also have a magic window
22:09:50 <Marisha> bajones: Clarification - there is a non-immersive (inline) mode, but it does no tracking of any sort. The thing it gives you is the ability to use the same sort of render loop with immersive and non-immersive content. So you can use the XrSession's requestAnimationFrame. Nobody uses it much, I wish I hadn't spent so much time on it.
22:10:33 <Marisha> bajones: We talked a lot about the magic window mode, that involves tracking users position. there were privacy considerations, implementation questions. We could revisit that, but that doesn't sound like what's being discussed here.
22:11:22 <Marisha> Bryce: Yeah, in its simplest form it's just "how far away is the user in this virtual space". Following discussion about XRSession, I was thinking it could be for devs who don't know anything about WebXR. It could be like the geolocation API that's just surfaced in the navigator.
22:11:25 <adarose> q?
22:11:29 <adarose> ack cabanier
22:11:59 <bkardell_> That is what I was going to say actually
22:12:20 <Marisha> cabanier: So we don't really need to know how far away the user is to the centimeter. We just need to know are they close, sorta far away, or really far away. It could be like a CSS media-query to resolve some of the privacy considerations. We don't need to know exactly how far away they are in relation to the window.
22:12:42 <Marisha> cabanier: It could be something on navigator but could also be some CSS-y thing that automatically reformats itself
22:12:50 <adarose> ack bajones_
22:13:09 <bialpio_> q-
22:13:22 <Marisha> bajones: I like the idea of a CSS media query in this context. It seems like the right abstraction. This isn't necessarily about how far away the panel is, more about the angular resolution of the panel (includes both how far away, how wide/tall, etc)
22:14:08 <Marisha> bajones: There is still some fingerprinting in the media query but you're not looking at what the user's head is doing. It seems like it slots in nicely with Zoom level, what frame, etc. You could maybe call this perceptual width or something - how big the user perceives the page to be, and have CSS adjust to that.
22:14:13 <adarose> q?
22:14:19 <adarose> ack Brandel
22:15:06 <Marisha> Brandel: What might be confusing for folks: Head tracking and how far away the element is are essentially the same question - just depends on spatial/temporal resolution. CSS media query is one approach, other approach is to have exact xyz coordinates. While they are technically the same thing, they can be used to serve very different purposes.
22:15:32 <Marisha> Brandel: There was a discussion about having a universal virtual unit like a millimeter
22:15:49 <Marisha> Brandel: If there were reasonable limits on update frequency and such, it could be very useful
22:16:14 <adarose> ack bkardell_
22:16:21 <Marisha> adarose: You could even use the existing media queries, if you bin the information about panel size
22:16:30 <Brandel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES9jArHRFHQ is McKenzie's presentation
22:17:10 <Marisha> Brian: My immediate reaction is it sounds like it would be ideal in CSS like media-query list, listeners, CSS already has lots of things related to things like perceptual distance and calculations, since it is already used in televisions. This doesn't seem like it would be particularly hard, it fits well.
22:17:18 <cabanier> q+
22:17:23 <adarose> q?
22:17:23 <Marisha> adarose: This might be more for the CSS working group instead of here
22:17:28 <adarose> ack cabanier
22:17:37 <Marisha> cabanier: Bryce first brought it to web apps, who told him to bring it here
22:17:44 <bkardell_> wow I must have missed that
22:17:54 <mkeblx> q+
22:17:58 <Marisha> cabanier: But we're more looking to get people's opinions on it. Sounds like people don't have too maybe problems with it as a CSS media query and binning.
22:18:11 <bkardell_> bryce can you share the css issue?
22:18:21 <adarose> ack mkeblx
22:19:09 <Marisha> mkeblx: You mentioned the weather thing. But the Meta Quest browser stays at the same distance. What implementation are you imagining?
22:19:19 <Marisha> cabanier: Trying to do more mixed reality stuff, where people are expected to walk around more
22:19:50 <bkardell_> cabanier: do you know what the css issue # is? I don't see a handle here that is bryce
22:19:51 <Jared> q+
22:19:52 <Marisha> Bryce: With mixed reality over time, you might have more scenarios where a panel is attached to physical space
22:20:00 <adarose> ack Jared
22:20:28 <Marisha> Jared: If you utilized existing media queries via virtual screen size, there might be some good tools to play around with
22:20:31 <cabanier> @ bkardell_ : we didn't file a CSS issue yet. Bryce went to webapps first because he wanted to extend navigator
22:21:03 <Marisha> Bryce: I wanted to ask about fingerprinting risk - if there were a permission dialog, does this group handle that sort of thing?
22:21:16 <Marisha> adarose: Usually permission prompts are not determined by this group, left up to the Browser
22:21:49 <Marisha> bajones: Usually specifications don't determine what is shown or said regarding permissions. We can sometimes say "user consent is needed for this feature" and mention permission prompts as an example but we don't dictate that that needs to be how consent needs to be given.
22:22:13 <adarose> q?
22:22:42 <Marisha> adarose: No one on queue, should we wrap up for coffee break?
22:22:45 <Marisha> Bryce: sounds good to me
22:23:04 <Marisha> rrsagent, generate minutes
22:23:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Marisha
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23:06:53 <bialpio_> present+
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23:08:13 <Marisha> present+
23:08:16 <adarose> zakim, choose a victim
23:08:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose lgombos
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23:08:29 <kdashg> present+
23:08:33 <Manishearth_> scribe: lgombos
23:08:45 <adarose> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1273
23:08:56 <lgombos> lgombos has joined #immersive-web
23:09:05 <bialpio_> q+
23:09:15 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: next step for raw camera access
23:09:37 <lgombos> ...goal to consent and developer use cases
23:10:17 <lgombos> ... reviewed Google Chrome implementation and reviewed it for headsets. chalange with render loop
23:11:09 <lgombos> ...unlock new use cases.. reflections, adapting scale of screen, media sharing, image target, qr code
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23:11:57 <lgombos> ...skyeffects demo
23:13:12 <lgombos> ...running nn in background, to build sky map, create cube map
23:13:27 <bajones> "It
23:13:41 <bajones> "It's hard to get close to the sky" [citation needed]
23:14:08 <lgombos> ... In general Niantic cares about use cases outside (sky, ground, foliage)
23:15:23 <lgombos> ... marker based ar demo
23:15:48 <lgombos> ... camera texture processing
23:16:04 <cabanier> q+
23:16:09 <lgombos> ... part of why demos are not polished further as Chrome API is still experimental
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23:16:21 <adarose> q?
23:16:26 <adarose> ack bialpio_
23:16:53 <Yih> q+
23:16:57 <lgombos> bialpio_: raw camera access (for smartphone) launched (no longer experimental) in late 2022
23:16:59 <Yonet> Nick, can you share the slides so we can add them to the meeting notes. Thanks!
23:17:25 <alcooper> Enabled by default for Chrome since M107
23:17:45 <lgombos> ... only smartphone specific/capable api's are released to stable
23:18:14 <bajones> q+ to ask what API (OpenXR presumably) Meta uses to handle passthrough.
23:18:34 <bajones> ack me
23:18:34 <Zakim> bajones, you wanted to ask what API (OpenXR presumably) Meta uses to handle passthrough.
23:19:15 <lgombos> ... other Chromium based browser running on headset (Hololens, Quest) do not support raw camera access
23:19:41 <Jared> q+
23:19:44 <lgombos> ... headsets typically do not expose camera for web
23:19:45 <adarose> q?
23:20:12 <Brandel> Brandel has joined #immersive-web
23:20:18 <adarose> ack. cabanier
23:20:18 <lgombos> ... Nick-Niantic_ API proposed is a simple adapter
23:20:41 <lgombos> cabanier: On Quest Pro nobody gets access to camera feed
23:21:16 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: lot of advancements cimd execution on nn
23:21:34 <lgombos> ... 200 fps on handhelds with cimd
23:21:35 <bkardell_> sorry it's a little noisy here at the moment - is the question whether any device would give wolvic those permissions?
23:22:11 <Jared> We could help with that... Also provide it a virtual means to do it
23:22:26 <lgombos> cabanier: unlikely realtime access to camera even later..
23:22:34 <Brandel> q?
23:22:51 <CharlesL> q+
23:23:05 <lgombos> ... Nick-Niantic_ exloring other headset providers to expose raw camera access
23:23:23 <adarose> ack cabanier
23:23:40 <adarose> ack Yih
23:24:02 <lgombos> Yih: question regarding camera feed processing
23:24:29 <bialpio_> q+
23:24:40 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: slide 8.. only meaning to show middle demo "location"
23:25:03 <lgombos> ... point is 6DoF tracking on the phone
23:25:07 <adarose> q?
23:25:11 <adarose> ack Jared
23:25:49 <lgombos> Jared: interesting helping.. actual and virtual devices .. what is input the algorithm ? just color ?
23:25:55 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: needs rgb texture
23:26:14 <lgombos> ... FoV of camera
23:26:38 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: will share the presentation
23:26:40 <Nick-Niantic_> https://github.com/immersive-web/raw-camera-access/issues/11
23:26:57 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: these are the needs
23:27:27 <adarose> q?
23:27:31 <adarose> ack CharlesL
23:27:36 <cabanier> q+
23:27:37 <lgombos> Jared: I can imaging and implementation on virtual enviromnet.. that later can work on the headset
23:27:55 <lgombos> CharlesL: I was wondering .. to add a secondary camera
23:28:01 <adarose> q?
23:28:04 <adarose> ack bialpio_
23:28:08 <lgombos> cabanier: can not comment on future devices
23:28:30 <lgombos> bialpio_: we have been exploring marker detection.. it is in chromium repo, will link to it
23:28:52 <lgombos> ... we used opencv marker tracking module
23:29:15 <Brandel> q+
23:29:18 <lgombos> ... not easy to get a performant implementation
23:29:38 <bialpio_> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/webxr_test_pages/webxr-samples/proposals/camera-access-marker.html
23:29:41 <adarose> q?
23:29:46 <adarose> ack cabanier
23:30:17 <lgombos> cabanier: presenting stereo, how does that work with camera feed
23:30:37 <lgombos> bialpio_: the app could reproject
23:31:07 <adarose> q+
23:31:20 <lgombos> ... user sees excatly what the website has information to
23:31:36 <lgombos> cabanier: for PT ?
23:31:53 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: for PT, unlikely to have this problem
23:32:54 <lgombos> cabanier: is it timewarped ?
23:33:25 <lgombos> bialpio_: ARCore introduces a lag .. when image tracking is on
23:34:29 <lgombos> ... can not use camera for effects.. you might get frames from "future"
23:35:09 <lgombos> cabanier: we predict what camera feed will be
23:36:46 <lgombos> cabanier: hololens you can get access to one of the camera.. not all of them
23:37:09 <lgombos> bajones: hololens requirements are different.. not the whole scene
23:38:25 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: timewarping has to happen at some point.. image and timeline needs to be aligned
23:38:34 <lgombos> cabanier: api does not give you a snapshot
23:39:01 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: event based API
23:39:34 <adarose> ack Brandel
23:39:44 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: it does not have to run on every frame
23:41:04 <adarose> q?
23:41:07 <lgombos> Brandel: does it have to be raw stereo
23:41:13 <adarose> q-
23:41:16 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: does not have to be stereo
23:41:19 <Jared> q+
23:41:56 <adarose> ack Jared
23:41:56 <Jared> Could be interesting to check out some of what is trending as being exposed for certain types of wearable XR in native APIs or extensions
23:41:57 <Jared> https://registry.khronos.org/OpenXR/specs/1.0/html/xrspec.html#XR_HTC_passthrough
23:42:00 <lgombos> Nick-Niantic_: does not necessary need to show to user
23:42:17 <lgombos> Jared: similar concept, underlays
23:42:30 <adarose> q?
23:42:34 <lgombos> ... can be used as a prototype
23:43:40 <Jared> Sorry, I was mistaken. It doesn't give you access to the pixels.
23:45:07 <lgombos> adarose: new topic https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/892
23:45:16 <bajones> q+
23:45:43 <adarose> zakim, choose a vixtim
23:45:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'choose a vixtim', adarose
23:45:49 <atsushi> topic: webxr#892 Evaluate how/if WebXR should interact with audio-only devices.
23:45:54 <adarose> zakim, choose a victim
23:45:54 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mjordan
23:46:15 <mjordan> mjordan has joined #immersive-web
23:46:23 <adarose> scribe nick: mjordan
23:46:24 <mjordan> present+
23:46:34 <cabanier> scribenick: mjordan
23:46:53 <adarose> ack bajones
23:47:19 <Manishearth_> RRSAgent, please draft the minutes
23:47:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html Manishearth_
23:47:34 <mjordan> bajones: likes point about AirPods as audio only devices, fairly common
23:48:09 <mjordan> ... thinks that these are consuming 5.1 audio and hands-off?
23:48:22 <Manishearth_> q+
23:49:10 <mjordan> ... doesn't seem like audio generated on the fly. Can get 3-dof pose data, but maybe not a way to get data bask into the scene?
23:49:19 <Brandel> q+
23:49:41 <Jared> q+
23:49:45 <mjordan> ... are they designed to be interacted with as controllers necessarily...
23:50:01 <Nick-Niantic_> q+
23:50:16 <mjordan> ... Bose devices were trying to explicitly be XR devices.
23:50:18 <adarose> ack Manishearth_
23:50:46 <CharlesL> q+
23:51:13 <mjordan> Manishearth_: Can have devices that are audio only. Like a headset without lenses. Could be able to get poses from certain devices.
23:51:20 <Dylan_XR_Access> q+
23:51:54 <mjordan> ... main benefit is that you could get pose based control, as well as controller based control.
23:52:44 <mjordan> ... experience that you want to work everywhere might not need pose because you have other controls. but if you don't have those devices, could you initiate session that is not backed by one of those devices. Might be good to look into.
23:52:49 <adarose> ack Brandel
23:53:07 <mjordan> Brandel: headphones are looked at as display devices
23:53:36 <mjordan> ... public available apis do return at least 3dof, and sometimes acceleration.
23:54:05 <adarose> q?
23:54:06 <mjordan> ... back to Gamepad discussion earlier, you can get orientation from gamepads, and those can be considered.
23:54:09 <adarose> ack Jared
23:54:39 <mjordan> Jared: Anecdote - ghost story narrative where it's audio only with directional whispers, etc.
23:54:40 <adarose> ack Nick-Niantic_
23:54:59 <mjordan> Nick-Niantic_: Curious about expectation.
23:55:40 <mjordan> ... for audio-only headset, you are looking at a device in real space, so if you go into immersive mode, what should happen?
23:55:58 <mjordan> ... What is the expected use case, interface, user experience?
23:56:31 <mjordan> adarose: Like HTC vive attached to computer, maybe render a 3-dof view.
23:56:56 <cabanier> q+
23:56:58 <mjordan> ... on the phone. Or maybe doesn't render something, but you still get 3dof audio.
23:57:18 <mjordan> ... could run independently on device, but maybe get audio transcription on device.
23:57:37 <mjordan> Nick-Niantic_: do you need an XR session for that?
23:58:13 <bialpio_> q+
23:58:14 <mjordan> bajones: probably inclined to treat as a different type of session?
23:58:29 <mjordan> ... could get back poses every frame.
23:58:45 <rigel> q+
23:58:55 <mjordan> Nick-Niantic_: What would happen on quest, when you ask for immersive audio?
23:59:26 <mjordan> bajones: might have limitations because of the device functionality.
23:59:58 <mjordan> ... maybe normalize around devices where this is the norm, or expected use case?
00:00:42 <mjordan> ... if you're trying to get poses, you could do some interesting accessibility stuff, sensors might not be super accurate?
00:00:48 <adarose> ack CharlesL
00:00:57 <mjordan> ... Would give it it's own session type.
00:01:06 <Brandel_> Brandel_ has joined #immersive-web
00:01:53 <mjordan> CharlesL: There is a link on how OpenXR should interact with audio only device, but not a lot of info there. Blind users do turn off their screens to this seems reasonable.
00:02:01 <adarose> q?
00:02:04 <adarose> ack Dylan_XR_Access
00:02:37 <mjordan> Dylan_XR_Access: Being able to support things like spatial sound is necessary for a lot of experiences.
00:02:43 <adarose> q?
00:02:43 <Jared> q+
00:02:49 <mjordan> ... should support those use cases.
00:03:13 <adarose> ack cabanier
00:03:24 <mjordan> adarose: shouldn't do a different session type, would say something about the user not wanting to view video.
00:03:24 <Jared> q-
00:04:15 <Jared> q+
00:04:22 <mjordan>  can get immersive sounds while not having have an imersive session
00:04:41 <adarose> ack cabanier
00:06:07 <mjordan> cabanier: can't find 5.1 support in browsers? Certain devices, or special video formats may have that. What do we need to do to get 5.1 support in browsers?
00:06:18 <adarose> ack bialpio_
00:06:40 <mjordan> ... maybe manually decoding the audio streams?
00:06:58 <adarose> ack bialpio_
00:07:35 <mjordan> Chris Wilson: Can be supported in web audio, but need to use 3d panner to do positioning, but nothing that does 3d panning inside of 5.1 audio.
00:07:41 <adarose> ack bialpio_
00:08:08 <mjordan> bialpio_: I know we don't say how many views you get, but can we say we get only one?
00:08:51 <mjordan> bajones: you only get 1 or 2, unless you explicitly ask for them.
00:09:17 <mjordan> .. . even if allowed, wouldn't want scenarios where you get 0,
00:10:12 <mjordan> ... don't want to expose the fact that users are using accessibility settings. So you could advertise that the content is maybe audio-only, and put the acceptance choice back on the user.
00:10:38 <mjordan> ... try and make the page as unaware of what the user chooses as possible.
00:11:18 <mjordan> bialpio_: Be careful how you classify the session if there is a special session for this, so that it doesn't give that away.
00:12:01 <mjordan> adarose: should not be able to secretly overlay other audio over user's expected streams
00:12:24 <mjordan> bialpio_: had to refactor part of the spec for this.
00:13:22 <mjordan> ... do we pause other audio if they're already running?
00:13:32 <Jared> q-
00:13:42 <mjordan> : sometimes background apps can play audio and sometimes not
00:14:11 <mjordan> ... sometimes confusing around ducking audio from other sources.
00:14:47 <mjordan> ??: we say exclusive audio, but maybe not exclusive-exclusive. Sometimes the OS can interrupt, etc.
00:15:14 <mjordan> cabanier: chrome will sometimes keep running when display is off
00:15:26 <mjordan> ... audio session might be like that.
00:15:49 <mjordan> ??: exclusive used to be the term, but now it's immersive
00:16:14 <adarose> q?
00:16:33 <mjordan> adarose: if a media thing wanted to differentiate, there would be a difference between directional and directional where moving your head did something.
00:17:27 <mjordan> rigel: walking down a street where you can have audio-only immersion as you go down a  street would be cool.
00:17:56 <adarose> q?
00:18:01 <adarose> ack rigel
00:18:12 <mjordan> ... different elements in a scene have different emitters, but currently tied to phone position. would be neat to get head pose instead of having to move phone around.
00:18:24 <mjordan> ... today need to move phone around.
00:18:26 <adarose> q?
00:18:53 <Brandel_> q+
00:19:01 <adarose> ack Brandel_
00:19:01 <mjordan> ??: on issue for this topic Jared had a link to someone on the native side with motion info from the native side
00:19:04 <Jared> q+
00:19:19 <mjordan> brandel_: Can shake or nod and get that input from the headphones.
00:19:21 <adarose> ack Jared
00:19:50 <adarose> q?
00:19:53 <mjordan> Jared: Using tools like Unity, you can use things like colliders and things are helpful for making immersive audio experiences.
00:20:13 <mjordan> adarose: This seemed like a fun thing to end the day with. and this was a lovely discussion .
00:20:58 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
00:20:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/24-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
00:21:07 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
00:21:47 <atsushi> rrsagent, bye
00:21:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
00:59:59 <scribe> s/??: For those of us with ownership/Marcos: For those of us with ownership/
00:59:59 <scribe> s/??: Yes, that would be great./Marcos: Yes, that would be great./
00:59:59 <scribe> s/scribe nick: adarose/scribenick: adarose/
00:59:59 <scribe> i/Dylan: another player that/scribenick: Manishearth_/
00:59:59 <scribe> s/one hting/one thing/
00:59:59 <scribe> s/agendum 3 -- semantic-labels -- taken up [from atsushi]//
00:59:59 <scribe> s/TOPIC: Proposal for panel distance API//
00:59:59 <scribe> s/Proposal for panel distance API in VR//
00:59:59 <scribe> i|https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1273|topic: webxr#1273 Next steps for raw camera access|
00:59:59 <scribe> s/Chris Wilson: Can/Chris_Wilson: Can/
00:59:59 <scribe> s/ can get immersive sounds while not/... can get immersive sounds while not/