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14:35:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/04/04-vcwg-special-irc
14:35:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:35:45 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:36:22 <ivan> Meeting: Verifiable Credentials Working Group Special Topic Call on issue/PR updates
14:36:23 <ivan> Date: 2023-04-04
14:36:23 <ivan> chair: kristina
14:36:23 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e88d30bd-4099-49d1-b769-1d8cd39a1b28/20230404T110000
14:36:23 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-04-04: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e88d30bd-4099-49d1-b769-1d8cd39a1b28/20230404T110000
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14:59:49 <ivan> present+
14:59:59 <ivan> present+ brent, shigeya, kristina
15:00:01 <shigeya> present+
15:00:09 <brent> brent has joined #vcwg-special
15:00:22 <brent> present+
15:00:24 <ivan> present+ davidc, markus
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15:00:40 <kristina> present+
15:01:13 <ivan> present+ TallTed
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15:01:42 <Phil-ASU> Present+
15:02:06 <dlongley> present+
15:02:15 <kgriffin-gleif> Apologies I won't be able tp join the call, but I will be looking for editorial issues.
15:02:18 <ivan> present+ jandrieu
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15:02:38 <manu> present+
15:02:43 <ivan> regrets+ kgriffin-gleif
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15:03:00 <Will> present+
15:03:18 <ivan> present+ dmitriz
15:03:24 <ivan> present+ selfissued
15:03:48 <ivan> present+ pauld
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15:04:55 <ivan> scribe+ markus
15:05:03 <kristina> Topic: Issue assigning
15:05:07 <kristina> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-asc+no%3Aassignee
15:05:12 <ivan> present+ kerri
15:05:15 <JoeAndrieu> present+
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15:05:45 <markus_sabadello> present+
15:06:08 <markus_sabadello> kristina: We have 57 open issues that are not assigned to anyone.
15:06:11 <selfissued> selfissued has joined #vcwg-special
15:06:11 <Kerri_Lemoie> present+
15:06:28 <selfissued> present+
15:06:28 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Some of the issues have the "conversation" label.
15:07:12 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Brent and I have discussed after feature freeze we do issue triaging to assign people to do PRs.
15:07:12 <markus_sabadello> kristina: So we have a clear picture of what will go into VCDM spec before CR.
15:07:48 <markus_sabadello> brent: Being assigned to an issue doesn't necessarily mean that you are the one who has to do a PR. It just means you care enough that you will make sure it gets resolved. This may involve talking to other people, iterating, etc.
15:07:59 <markus_sabadello> brent: Please volunteer to be assigned issues that you care about.
15:08:07 <manu> q+ to provide input on "who might work on these issues"
15:08:10 <markus_sabadello> brent: Issues that aren't assigned to anyone may not get addressed in v2.
15:08:25 <markus_sabadello> brent: If you feel something needs to get done in v2, please volunteer to get assigned.
15:08:25 <kristina> q?
15:08:44 <ivan> present+ identitywoman
15:08:49 <markus_sabadello> brent: If you don't have Github experience, you can ask to be assigned and then reached out to chairs and editors for help.
15:08:55 <kristina> ack manu
15:08:55 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to provide input on "who might work on these issues"
15:09:21 <markus_sabadello> manu: To add to this, the editors at this point have packed work queues. We are at capacity on work that we think we can do during this WG.
15:10:00 <markus_sabadello> manu: The group has pulled in quite a bit of work, because of this the editors' work queues are full. There may be a handful of issues that they can take on, but the group should consider that other issues will not be handled by editors.
15:10:10 <DavidC> DavidC has joined #vcwg-special
15:10:16 <DavidC> present+
15:10:20 <markus_sabadello> manu: If people in the group think that editors will pick up non-assigned issues, then this is not a safe assumption to make.
15:10:28 <markus_sabadello> manu: Likely the editors won't be able to.
15:10:43 <kristina> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/988
15:10:58 <ivan> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/988
15:11:07 <markus_sabadello> kristina: This is about holder binding and correlation.
15:11:20 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Anyone who wants to be assigned to this one?
15:11:46 <kristina> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/984
15:12:04 <kristina> s/https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/984/Topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/984
15:12:04 <markus_sabadello> ivan: Can you put the "topic:" before the issue link
15:12:23 <ivan> present+ dlehn1
15:12:42 <markus_sabadello> kristina: By Michael Herman. No comments on this issue. Anyone willing to sign up for it?
15:12:46 <oliver> oliver has joined #vcwg-special
15:12:50 <oliver> present+
15:13:03 <kristina> Topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/960
15:13:53 <markus_sabadello> kristina: This is about nonTransferable property. Some discussion on the issue. Anyone willing to be assigned to it?
15:13:58 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: I am willing
15:14:03 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Thank you David
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15:14:13 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/881
15:14:13 <decentralgabe> present+
15:14:42 <dlongley> q+
15:14:55 <markus_sabadello> kristina: By Orie. Long interaction between Orie, Dave, Manu, others.
15:15:04 <smccown> smccown has joined #vcwg-special
15:15:06 <ivan> present+ smccown
15:15:10 <kristina> q?
15:15:15 <kristina> ack dlongley
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15:15:23 <ivan> present+ gabe
15:15:30 <markus_sabadello> dlongley: We could ask Orie if we can close this issue, if it's all done.
15:15:35 <markus_sabadello> brent: Will add that
15:15:47 <ivan> present+ dlongley
15:15:53 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/846
15:16:12 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About regex for XML Date Time.
15:16:14 <markus_sabadello> manu: I'll take this one
15:16:36 <markus_sabadello> manu: We will provide a regex for XML Date Time that exists in the spec, but we will mandate time zone.
15:16:45 <markus_sabadello> manu: This has come up in implementations.
15:17:05 <kristina> q?
15:17:05 <markus_sabadello> ivan: Manu, didn't we have that in the DID spec?
15:17:23 <markus_sabadello> manu: Not sure if we had a regex for this in DID Core. If we did, it needs to be updated to include the time zone.
15:17:42 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/963
15:18:27 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About IEEE Ontology Standards. I think we need Orie to see if he would volunteer.
15:18:45 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/949
15:19:03 <brent> q+ to take it
15:19:06 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About ZK binary data format. No response on the issue.
15:19:15 <markus_sabadello> brent: I'll take this one
15:19:17 <brent> ack brent
15:19:17 <Zakim> brent, you wanted to take it
15:19:19 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Thanks Brent.
15:19:23 <kristina> ack brent
15:19:55 <markus_sabadello> brent: I'll try to answer this question, and that the answer to the question will not be found in the core data model.
15:19:55 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/938
15:20:13 <kristina> q?
15:20:30 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About encrypted VCs. By DavidC. Anyone willing to take this?
15:20:43 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: If no one else is interested, I'll take it on. But it would be good if someone else is also interested.
15:21:09 <markus_sabadello> brent: If there is no consensus, then the goal is to strive for consensus
15:21:42 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: It was in a requirement in a previous project we had.
15:22:13 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: There was a proposal, there is a profile of VCs that had this.
15:22:34 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1009
15:22:37 <ivan> present+ orie
15:22:48 <markus_sabadello> manu: I'll take this one. We need to do a pass through the specification.
15:23:24 <kristina> q?
15:23:31 <markus_sabadello> manu: Now an editor needs to make sure we mean "credential" or "verifiable credential" appropriately. This is ready for PR. My expectation is we will largely refer to "verifiable credential" in the specification, since that's what the media type is about.
15:23:43 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Can I help you with that?
15:23:45 <markus_sabadello> manu: Absolutely.
15:24:00 <markus_sabadello> manu: DavidC I'll add you too
15:24:02 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: Thanks
15:24:10 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1010
15:24:40 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About termsOfUse. Any volunteers?
15:24:55 <kristina> q?
15:25:37 <Kerri_Lemoie> In what order are we sorting the list as we go through them?
15:25:51 <markus_sabadello> Phillip Long: I'm interested in this. Statement of interest by the individual that the credential should be used in a particular way. This is a clear indiciation to the receiving person. If they choose to not follow that, it could invoke a governance process to deal with a violation.
15:26:04 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: I'm interested in this. We are already using this in real life.
15:26:22 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: Tangentially this is related to nonTransferable we discussed earlier.
15:26:35 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Do you both want to be assigned?
15:26:38 <TallTed> Kerri_Lemoie -- least-recently-updated. see https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-asc+no%3Aassignee
15:26:41 <markus_sabadello> Phillip Long: Yes, both is good.
15:27:07 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/1007
15:27:22 <Orie> Orie has joined #vcwg-special
15:27:23 <kristina> q?
15:27:25 <markus_sabadello> kristina: By Orie, about breaking changes in IRIs.
15:27:35 <Orie> q+
15:27:38 <Kerri_Lemoie> Thanks @TallTed
15:27:48 <Orie> q-
15:27:49 <Orie> present+
15:27:56 <markus_sabadello> manu: I'm going to try to close this. The VCWG will not break existing vocabularies. I will mark this issue "pending close", and people who want breaking changes can object and try to keep it open.
15:28:18 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Orie do you want to speak to this?
15:28:24 <markus_sabadello> Orie: I will leave comments on the issue.
15:28:39 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/870
15:29:03 <markus_sabadello> kristina: By Orie, about evidence. Anyone willing to take this one?
15:29:29 <kristina> q?
15:29:33 <markus_sabadello> kristina: To those who joined late, this call is about assigning issues that are not currently assigned. It means you are responsible that the issue gets addressed.
15:29:45 <ivan> q+
15:29:59 <kristina> ack ivan
15:30:20 <oliver> +1 ivan
15:30:31 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I don't really understand.. The title says you have to improve tests, which suggests this is about tests, not the spec. The text talks about better defining the property or removing it. What is this about? Question is to Orie.
15:31:15 <ivan> q+
15:31:30 <markus_sabadello> Orie: I believe we had the spectre of objections in the context of our RDF terms for which there have been no implementation. I believe "evidence" is one of them. In order to retain this in the core spec, this was the original intention of the issue. As far as I am aware, we have not provided any concrete examples of using the "evidence" property.
15:31:52 <kristina> ack ivan
15:31:54 <markus_sabadello> Orie: I think DavidC is the furthest toward a concrete example. If we have multiple concrete implementations, this is the testing we should have to retain the property.
15:32:39 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I understand. I suggest we postpone this to when we get to CR exit criteria. We have to say what it means for a property to pass the CR line. The issue wasn't clear from the description.
15:33:05 <oliver> q+
15:33:14 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: Part of the NGI Atlantic project, we did a simple example which referred to NIST and eIDAS levels of assurance. There would have been two independent implementations, but the project ran out of time.
15:33:16 <kristina> ack oliver
15:34:03 <markus_sabadello> oliver: To proceed with this issue, does somebody have to register an "evidence" type in the directory, and then write a test that uses this "evidence" type? Implementers don't need to anything, but they should not fail if they encounter an "evidence" property of this specific type, is this correct?
15:34:14 <oliver> q+
15:34:31 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: This is a discussion we had with termsOfUse and nonTransferable, whether these properties can be ignored by recipients. I think DavidC added something to this discussion.
15:34:38 <dlongley> q+
15:34:40 <kristina> ack oliver
15:35:10 <Kerri_Lemoie> q+
15:35:12 <kristina> ack dlongley
15:35:12 <markus_sabadello> oliver: Whoever gets assigned to this issue, should be someone who knows an "evidence" type that is used somewhere, and it should be registered in the VC directory. Does this make sense?
15:35:15 <selfissued> selfissued has joined #vcwg-special
15:35:30 <selfissued> Present+
15:35:36 <kristina> me/ oliver, maybe put that in the issue comment?
15:35:36 <kristina> ack Kerri_Lemoie
15:35:37 <markus_sabadello> dlongley: Trying to respond to ignoring extension points. This was certainly the intention.
15:35:41 <selfissued> Q+
15:35:55 <markus_sabadello> Kerri_Lemoie: We have OpenBadges 2.0 use "evidence". I will share a link.
15:35:57 <Kerri_Lemoie> https://1edtech.github.io/openbadges-specification/ob_v3p0.html#evidence
15:36:46 <markus_sabadello> Kerri_Lemoie: It's a bit confusing, because they are using the "evidence" property from the VC spec, but they are using it in their own way with their own properties. This is important for EDU community, but they have their own testing. There is overlap, not sure what to do with it. I don't know if we can test it if they already test it in their own way.
15:36:49 <kristina> ack selfissued
15:37:31 <dlongley> +1 to you must be able to ignore unrecognized terms
15:37:31 <markus_sabadello> selfissued: It's not a question whether they can ignore "evidence". They must be able to ignore it. In our test suite we should inject random elements and ensure that implementations don't fail if they encounter them.
15:38:00 <markus_sabadello> ivan: The minutes of this discussion will appear in the issue.
15:38:08 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Anyone willing to be assigned to this issue?
15:38:19 <oliver> q+
15:38:24 <kristina> ack oliver
15:38:46 <markus_sabadello> oliver: You can assign me to find out what actually needs to be done, if anything needs to be changed in the test suite.
15:39:10 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/908
15:39:26 <Kerri_Lemoie> @oliver - feel free to reach out if you want insights into Open Badges
15:39:45 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About SD-JWT. Some back and forth between me and Sebastian.
15:40:19 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Anyone willing to be assigned to this one?
15:40:38 <markus_sabadello> brent: Since David has opened another issue, should we just close this issue?
15:40:47 <DavidC> I think this should be closed
15:41:21 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: I think this should be closed, because this is state. The later issue is more up-to-date. We should close and refer.
15:41:46 <markus_sabadello> brent: In general it would be best practice to change the title of an existing issue to reflect the state of a conversation, instead of creating a new separate issue.
15:41:58 <markus_sabadello> kristina: I don't think this is stale. Last comment was in January.
15:42:27 <kristina> q?
15:42:41 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Assigning both issues to me.
15:43:01 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/942
15:43:24 <oliver> q+
15:43:29 <markus_sabadello> kristina: By DavidC. Anyone willing to take this one?
15:43:58 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: I don't think holder binding solves this issue, because holder binding is part of credential subject. My issue is about the "issuee".
15:44:16 <kristina> ack oliver
15:44:18 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: An issuer should be able to say who he issued the credential to, if it's not the subject.
15:44:58 <markus_sabadello> oliver: We definitely need to revisit this and compare it, and find out if the current proposal works for the issue. In that case we should get more clarity on the use case, otherwise the need for the new property isn't clear.
15:45:06 <markus_sabadello> oliver: You can assign me, and I will find out
15:45:17 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/967
15:45:37 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About Example 1. Manu did you just assign yourself?
15:45:40 <markus_sabadello> manu: Yes
15:46:12 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/893
15:47:01 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About claims metadata. I think it can probably be closed.
15:47:20 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Any objections to closing this one?
15:48:18 <kristina> topic: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/959
15:49:10 <Orie> q+
15:49:10 <kristina> q?
15:49:14 <markus_sabadello> kristina: About clarification on subject and holder. Last comment was to move this to Implementer's Guide. Any objections to doing that?
15:49:14 <kristina> ack Orie
15:49:37 <Orie> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/blob/main/contexts/credentials/v2#L36
15:49:57 <markus_sabadello> Orie: I noticed that in the context definition for VC, "holder" is defined, and I wanted to share that. It seemed odd to me that a VC would have a "holder" property in the context but no indication or examples in the spec text that this is legal.
15:49:58 <DavidC> q+
15:50:12 <manu> q+
15:50:14 <markus_sabadello> Orie: It raises questions about the "holder" property and holder binding.
15:50:53 <markus_sabadello> Orie: The "holder" property should be removed from VC, or the spec should comment on when it is appropriate to do that.
15:50:53 <kristina> ack DavidC
15:51:24 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: My opinion is there should be no "holder" property. We don't know who the holder is, that's the point of VCs. You can have "issuee", but that's only a holder temporarily.
15:51:31 <Orie> I agree with David, I don't understand why holder property in the v2 context, as a property of VerifiableCredential
15:51:37 <kristina> ack manu
15:51:38 <markus_sabadello> DavidC: As issuer I give the VC to an issuee, but don't know what happens afterwards.
15:51:55 <markus_sabadello> manu: +1 to what Orie said, +1 to some of what DavidC said
15:52:19 <markus_sabadello> manu: I think originally this was meant VP and it may have accidentally slipped into VC.
15:52:21 <dlongley> +1 to manu
15:52:24 <markus_sabadello> manu: +1 to removing it from VC
15:52:26 <oliver> q+
15:52:26 <kristina> q?
15:52:29 <markus_sabadello> +1, this is my understanding too
15:52:33 <kristina> ack oliver
15:52:41 <oliver> q-
15:52:43 <markus_sabadello> oliver: (withdraw my comment)
15:52:45 <kristina> q?
15:53:00 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Anyone willing to volunteer for it?
15:53:04 <markus_sabadello> Orie: I'm almost done with a PR.
15:53:09 <ivan> q+
15:53:12 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Will assign you for now, thank you Orie.
15:53:17 <oliver> q+
15:53:17 <Orie> PR is up: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/pull/1076
15:53:25 <kristina> ack ivan
15:53:46 <manu> q+
15:53:52 <kristina> ack oliver
15:53:54 <markus_sabadello> ivan: If we do that, then we also have to remove it from official vocabulary document. It's defined as a term. Or we have to deprecate it. This is okay, we can do it, but shouldn't forget.
15:54:05 <Orie> yes, https://www.w3.org/2018/credentials/#holder
15:54:09 <markus_sabadello> oliver: Did we really define "holder" for VC?
15:54:14 <Orie> "Union of: cred:VerifiableCredential cred:VerifiablePresentation"
15:54:16 <markus_sabadello> ivan: It's certainly in the vocabulary
15:54:35 <manu> The reference is here: https://w3c.github.io/vc-data-model/#presentations-0
15:54:38 <markus_sabadello> oliver: But is it in the VCDM spec? Is there a normative reference? I couldn't find any such reference.
15:54:43 <Orie> oliver AFAIK, no... holder only shows up in VP section, and is optional
15:54:46 <kristina> ack manu
15:54:58 <markus_sabadello> oliver: That's not normative.
15:55:16 <markus_sabadello> manu: Right, there was an expectation that it might become normative. So we put it in the JSON-LD context.
15:55:27 <markus_sabadello> manu: ivan , because it's defined in core spec, I think we should not remove it
15:55:32 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I said deprecated
15:55:42 <markus_sabadello> manu: It shouldn't be deprecated either, it can be in VP.
15:55:52 <markus_sabadello> manu: We're talking about holder in VC, not about removing holder from VP.
15:55:58 <markus_sabadello> ivan: So we have to look at the domain.
15:56:01 <markus_sabadello> manu: Exactly
15:56:02 <markus_sabadello> ivan: I will do it
15:56:34 <markus_sabadello> kristina: Thank you all, see you tomorrow at the main VCWG call.
15:56:34 <kristina> https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-asc+no%3Aassignee
15:56:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/04-vcwg-special-minutes.html ivan
15:57:03 <markus_sabadello> kristina: We will continue with the same URL for the issues. If you have time, please look if you are willing to be assigned.
15:57:57 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
15:57:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, brent, shigeya, kristina, davidc, markus, TallTed, Phil-ASU, dlongley, jandrieu, manu, Will, dmitriz, selfissued, pauld, kerri,
15:58:00 <Zakim> ... JoeAndrieu, markus_sabadello, Kerri_Lemoie, identitywoman, dlehn1, oliver, decentralgabe, smccown, gabe, orie
15:58:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:58:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/04/04-vcwg-special-minutes.html Zakim
15:58:38 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:58:38 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:58:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
15:58:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #vcwg-special