14:59:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:59:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-irc
14:59:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:59:45 <Zakim> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:00:10 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/247
15:00:31 <cpn> cpn has joined #tt
15:00:42 <nigel> Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-tt-minutes.html
15:00:56 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:01:00 <nigel> Present: Andreas, Chris, Gary, Nigel
15:01:12 <nigel> Chair: Gary, Nigel
15:01:25 <nigel> Present+ Cyril
15:02:40 <cpn> scribe+ cpn
15:03:04 <nigel> Present+ Pierre
15:04:31 <nigel> Topic: This meeting
15:04:50 <cpn> Nigel: Topics for today: news on the charter, status update and issues on DAPT, also IMSC-HRM to understand the state
15:05:03 <cpn> ... We may be ready to think about CR exit criteria
15:05:15 <cpn> ... Also proposal from Apple to add to WebVTT metadata for strobing in video
15:05:36 <cpn> ... TPAC 2023 planning, but may not get to that today
15:05:42 <cpn> ... Anything else to cover?
15:06:14 <cpn> Chris: I'd like to cover TPAC, but not urgent
15:06:48 <cpn> Topic: Charter
15:07:10 <cpn> Nigel: The Council has concluded and written a report, but needs Atsushi to talk about it
15:07:38 <cpn> ... Next step is some need to validate the updated charter with everyone who commented. Plan is to have a 1 month extension, so the new charter would start on 1 May
15:07:53 <cpn> present+ Atsushi
15:08:43 <cpn> Atsushi: The FO Council report is out, we need to ask every reviewer to check the final version for a 1 week period, starting today
15:09:17 <cpn> ... It should be settled by next Thurdsay. I hope to get management approval in a week or so, so the new charter could be installed by mid April, I believe
15:09:42 <cpn> ... We have a 1 month extension approved, so if we don't want a gap, we can start the extension tomorrow
15:09:45 <cpn> Nigel: Yes please
15:10:06 <cpn> ... Can I post a link to the Council report?
15:10:17 <nigel> -> W3C Council Report on the FOs against the TTWG Charter https://www.w3.org/2023/03/council-ttwg-report.html
15:10:28 <cpn> Atsushi: It's public, I got approval to sent to AC reviews, so I think it's OK to post here
15:10:37 <cpn> s/sent/send/
15:10:59 <cpn> Nigel: I expected an announcement
15:11:39 <cpn> ... Can we set the charter end date to start date + 2 years?
15:12:13 <cpn> Atsushi: Yes. If you want 2 weeks spare, you can extend to end of April and start on 1 May, not sure if that would work
15:12:24 <cpn> Nigel: I'm neutral on that. Any other views?
15:12:50 <cpn> Atsushi: Not sure 2 weeks makes a difference for the review
15:13:05 <cpn> Nigel: I think the charter has had plenty of review time
15:13:08 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:13:11 <cpn> ... Anything else on the charter?
15:13:22 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:13:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:13:36 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
15:13:44 <cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
15:13:44 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-irc#T15-13-44
15:14:57 <cpn> Nigel: On the report, I've proposed a couple of changes to Florian. Not sure what will happen with those, some were editorial, others more formal
15:15:22 <cpn> ... For example, it says we didn't accept the proposed changes in full, which I think we did
15:16:03 <cpn> ... But this shouldn't hold up the charter
15:16:09 <cpn> Chris: I also sent you a comment directly
15:16:17 <cpn> Nigel: OK, will feed that back to Florian to
15:16:21 <cpn> s/to/too/
15:16:24 <cpn> Topic: DAPT
15:17:00 <cpn> Nigel: Last time Cyril and I did an issue we identified some to be resolved before FPWD
15:17:35 <cpn> ... The editorial ones have been done, needs an editorial pass, but the document is now feature complete
15:17:35 <cpn> ... Cyril generated some more issues. Thank you Andreas for your input
15:18:06 <cpn> ... I want to identify which issues we think need to be resolved for FPWD, if any, and label them
15:18:13 <cpn> Cyril: Do we think there are any? I don't think so, personally
15:18:25 <cpn> ... What's the expectation for FPWD? It doesn't need to be stable
15:19:08 <cpn> Nigel: It's there to invite review from the group
15:19:10 <cpn> Cyril: Would it trigger any communicate communication from W3C?
15:19:48 <cpn> Nigel: There'll be an announcement, and we could write a blog post
15:19:53 <atai> q+
15:19:55 <atsushi> example for IMSC-HRM -> https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/9318
15:20:03 <nigel> ack at
15:20:08 <cpn> Chris: Also a patent exclusion opportunity, so worth getting in the features if they have patent implications
15:20:37 <cpn> Andreas: I found some issues that I may open. Should I do that now or wait until it's published as FPWD?
15:20:44 <cpn> Nigel: I prefer not to wait
15:20:48 <cpn> Cyril: I agree
15:20:56 <cpn> ... Are those blockers for FPWD?
15:21:00 <cpn> Andreas: I don't think so
15:21:35 <cpn> Nigel: For the issues recently looked at, one is more structurally substantive than the others, about changing script types
15:21:53 <cpn> ... So we have a workflow script type and a separate application script type, dubbing or AD
15:23:06 <cpn> ... Feels useful to do that sooner than later.
15:23:06 <cpn> Cyril: I think you're right, but do we have agreement?
15:23:06 <cpn> Nigel: There seems to be agreement from those who commented
15:23:06 <cpn> ... I'll label it as FPWD and assign to you
15:23:06 <cpn> ... Issue #75
15:23:38 <cpn> Cyril: Also worth discussing the SSML intergration
15:23:49 <nigel> -> Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121
15:24:22 <cpn> Cyril: Reviewing the AD part of the spec with colleagues, we have TTML attributes that seem overlapping with SSML
15:24:42 <cpn> ... So what's the relationship? Can we use these attributes or the SSML equivalent syntax or not?
15:24:55 <nigel> q+
15:25:01 <cpn> ... Proprietary data, not in DAPT or TTML namespaces. Extending that example with SSML could be interesting
15:25:04 <nigel> ack n
15:25:34 <cpn> Nigel: Yes, definitely. We have to decide on the direction here. Thinking about how TTML2 deals with styling, a lot is imported from CSS
15:25:48 <cpn> ... Defined in TTML2 using styling vocabulary unique to TTML2
15:26:07 <cpn> ... Audio styling attributes: pitch and speak, are both based on SSML semantics based on the prosidy element
15:26:41 <cpn> ... What we found with TTML2 and CSS, is there's friction. We could say in TTML2 we won't add more SSML attributes, but do it by injecting SSML into the document
15:27:09 <cpn> ... That would mean definining precedence rules between two audio attributes. I think that would allow unlimited addition of SSML content
15:27:18 <cpn> ... Not sure if it can all be done in attributes, but think so
15:27:37 <cpn> ... Other direction is to define equivalnent vocabulary in TTML2 for everything you may want to use in SSML
15:27:40 <cpn> Cyril: Please no
15:28:08 <cpn> Nigel: It's a choice we have, so prefer the first option
15:28:23 <cpn> Cyril: A third option could be to say not use the TTML2 attributes and only SSML syntax
15:28:55 <cpn> Nigel: If we do that, we would need to adopt the special URI that's defined for the audio source attribute
15:29:09 <cpn> ... ttml/resource/#speech
15:29:13 <cpn> ... (reads definition)
15:29:29 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml2/#embedded-content-value-audio TTML2 <audio>
15:30:10 <cpn> Nigel: It could work, but I think it needs some research on the structure and how you'd inject SSML
15:30:26 <cpn> Cyril: Don't have a strong opinion, just considering options. Needs more study
15:30:39 <cpn> Nigel: It's an obvious form of extension that people may want to use
15:30:55 <cpn> ... So propose not doing that before FPWD
15:31:23 <cpn> Cyril: We can add an issue to the spec to say that's the direction, and get industry feedback
15:31:41 <cpn> Nigel: I'll add an issue to do that, assign to myself
15:31:57 <cpn> Cyril: Another issue to discuss is time expressions and associated restrictions
15:32:01 <cpn> ... It's related to IMSC
15:32:22 <cpn> ... How much of a problem has it been to allow the time syntax that looks like a SMPTE time code but isn't one
15:32:27 <nigel> -> w3c/dapt#123 Consider restricting time expressions
15:32:35 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/123 : Consider restricting time expressions
15:32:38 <cpn> Pierre: It's a recurring issue, I get questions about it
15:32:59 <cpn> Cyril: Consider restricting time expressions so there's no confusion possible
15:33:11 <cpn> Pierre: Absolutely. If the only option is time based media, that's a very good idea
15:33:24 <cpn> ... People will still be confused, but there'll be a simple answer
15:33:31 <cpn> Andreas: I agree
15:34:06 <cpn> Nigel: I don't think I object, but have a concern it may be against current industry practice in authoring in some way
15:34:21 <cpn> ... The change may be sensible, but people may not want to
15:35:09 <cpn> Pierre: People create files that pass validation but don't behave as the author intended
15:35:40 <cpn> ... Use case is authoring house gets a proxy with SMPTE time code burned in, they create an IMSC file with expressions that match the SMPTE time code
15:36:05 <cpn> ... The time expressions in the TTML file then don't work down the line
15:36:39 <cpn> ... Hard to explain to people why that happens. Easier to explain if it's not supported in IMSC
15:37:48 <cpn> ... It's a common work flow
15:38:31 <cpn> Cyril: Pierre and Andreas, please comment on the issue
15:39:08 <cpn> Nigel: Other open issues recently commented on. Nothing obvious to look at before FPWD
15:39:21 <cpn> Cyril: EBU TTML source media identifier
15:39:28 <cpn> ... Issue 122
15:39:35 <nigel> w3c/dapt#122
15:39:37 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/122 : Explicit reference to the Related Media Object
15:39:55 <cpn> ... I was surprised there's no way to provide a link to the source media document
15:40:18 <cpn> Nigel: There's a defined element in EBU TTML for this
15:40:42 <cpn> ... Do we need to add something normative to the spec, or recommend a schema to use?
15:41:13 <cpn> Cyril: I'd like to have something in the spec, to avoid the burden of having to refer to another spec
15:41:29 <cpn> Nigel: Could be an example that shows the element and namespace name is all that you'd need
15:42:05 <cpn> ... But do we need to be specific on how to do it, or point to options that are available and allow people to define their own
15:42:24 <cpn> Cyril: Let's start by saying here's one way to do it, see how people react
15:42:42 <cpn> ... But not blocking FPWD
15:43:12 <cpn> Nigel: Please look at the ED as it exists now. I'd like to start a CfC to publish as FPWD
15:43:40 <nigel> PROPOSAL: Publish DAPT FPWD based on ED and any editorial changes made in the next 2 weeks
15:43:58 <cpn> Nigel: Any objections?
15:43:58 <atsushi> +1
15:44:03 <cpn> Cyril: I support it
15:44:09 <cpn> Andreas: I support it
15:44:20 <nigel> RESOLUTION: Publish DAPT FPWD based on ED and any editorial changes made in the next 2 weeks
15:44:39 <cpn> Nigel: There'll be a 2 week decision review period
15:44:50 <cpn> Nigel: Anything else on this topic?
15:44:52 <cpn> (nothing)
15:44:59 <cpn> Topic: IMSC HRM
15:45:20 <cpn> Nigel: No issues to be addressed before CR. We're waiting on the TAG review
15:45:54 <cpn> ... The TAG milestone suggests they hope to look at it this week
15:46:15 <cpn> ... We also need to look at CR exit criteria. Pierre, any proposals?
15:46:29 <cpn> Pierre: We did that a while back
15:47:02 <nigel> -> Exit criteria at https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/59/files
15:47:09 <cpn> ... Not finished, but the framework is there. We need to finish the tests and invite getting the content. There's a wiki page also
15:47:56 <cpn> Nigel: For CR exit criteria, the proposal is in #59
15:48:11 <cpn> ... Please raise any concerns in the PR
15:48:27 <nigel> s/Exit criteria/Draft exit criteria
15:48:34 <cpn> Pierre: All we need to agree now is the exit criteria, then we can fill in the actual tests during the CR exit period
15:48:50 <cpn> ... So I'll clean up the CR branch and then we can send for review
15:49:31 <cpn> Nigel: I think what this says matches, or goes beyond the charter requirements, so we should be file
15:49:49 <cpn> ... There's specific text about IMSC HRM about the Council report, recommend looking at that
15:50:09 <cpn> ... They explicitly suggest that two validating implementations would be a good way to demonstrate interop
15:50:38 <cpn> Pierre: Yes, more is better, but not necessary
15:51:05 <nigel> s/IMSC HRM about the Council/IMSC HRM in the Council
15:51:47 <nigel> Topic: w3c/webvtt#512 Proposal from Apple about a WebVTT metadata format for describing when flashing and strobing lights occur in video.
15:51:48 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues/512 : VTT Type Proposal for time-coded general-flash metadata
15:52:42 <nigel> Gary: Two issues, the main one here is about Apple proposing a specific metadata format
15:53:06 <nigel> .. for WebVTT to describe when media has strobing or flashing lights so that players or whatever
15:53:20 <nigel> .. could handle it in some way such as dimming the screen or switching to an alternate video for that section.
15:53:34 <nigel> .. My main thought is that it probably shouldn't be in WebVTT itself, such a format.
15:54:06 <nigel> .. Maybe another spec, or something else. I don't know what are all the deliverables available for something like this.
15:54:20 <nigel> .. Also maybe, I didn't invite him for today but it might be worth inviting them to a future call.
15:54:47 <nigel> Nigel: Reminder that they are members - they might just need advance notice of the agenda item
15:54:53 <nigel> Gary: Yes. That's what I mean.
15:55:22 <nigel> Chris: There is the issue of a constraint about VTT metadata format, which Gary and I both have
15:55:33 <nigel> .. responded to say it risks breaking existing implementations that use other formats.
15:55:46 <nigel> .. We're asking if there's some other way to signal the metadata format used in the VTT metadata fields.
15:55:57 <nigel> .. It's open to suggestions about what might be possible.
15:56:09 <nigel> .. The other part is where such attributes or metadata schema should be specified.
15:56:27 <nigel> .. Strobing is a pretty small feature in itself. Are there other use cases that would warrant,
15:56:28 <nigel> .. e.g. a video metadata specification?
15:56:43 <nigel> .. This feels to me like what we have with WebVMT where it's a separate application
15:57:04 <nigel> .. that extends WebVTT. An alternative approach to adding into WebVTT itself.
15:57:10 <nigel> Pierre: Wholeheartedly agree.
15:57:25 <nigel> Chris: Not sure if this has a relationship to DataCue
15:57:42 <nigel> Pierre: My interpretation is that WebVTT cues are the only way to synchronise with the video element,
15:57:47 <nigel> .. so people are using it for everything.
15:57:50 <nigel> Gary: Yes
15:58:03 <nigel> Chris: So having an API more tailored to metadata?
15:58:08 <nigel> Pierre: Yes exactly
15:58:14 <nigel> Chris: I'll respond and ask about that
15:58:32 <nigel> Pierre: Maybe now the time is right to have that discussion, to figure out how to synchronise metadata
15:58:36 <nigel> .. with the video element.
15:58:59 <nigel> Gary: That makes me think maybe one of the related enhancements is on the Cue object, some
15:59:13 <nigel> .. format like JSON that can be automatically parsed, for use as metadata.
15:59:19 <nigel> Chris: Good thought, I'll capture that.
15:59:36 <nigel> .. Probably on DataCue if we want to encourage use of that rather than VTTCue. But that's a separate discussion.
15:59:38 <nigel> Gary: Yes
15:59:53 <nigel> Topic: TPAC 2023
16:00:34 <cpn> Nigel: We need to decide by 8 May. IBC is adjacent to TPAC. If anyone knows they'll attend or know they can't, please let me know
16:00:41 <cpn> ... Or if you have agenda topics
16:00:54 <cpn> Pierre: Agree
16:01:01 <cpn> Chris: I expect to be there
16:01:17 <cpn> Gary: Me too. But is also overlaps the Jewish new year
16:01:30 <cpn> Nigel: Strange decision
16:02:07 <cpn> [adjourned]
16:02:52 <nigel> i/[adjourned]/Topic: Meeting close
16:03:14 <nigel> s/[adjourned]/Nigel: Thanks everyone, we packed a lot in today. See you in 2 weeks. [adjourns meeting]
16:03:21 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:05:00 <nigel> s/Atsushi: The FO Council/[Atsushi arrives]
16:05:25 <nigel> s/[Atsushi arrives]/Atsushi: The FO Council
16:05:30 <nigel> i/Atsushi: The FO Council/[Atsushi arrives]
16:06:15 <nigel> s/back too Florian to/back to Florian too
16:06:18 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:06:49 <nigel> s/Cyril and I did an issue we identified/Cyril and I did an issue triage we identified
16:07:16 <nigel> s/any communicate communication/any communication
16:07:51 <gkatsev> s/Gary: Me too./Gary: I will likely not be there in person./
16:08:54 <nigel> s/worth discussing the SSML intergration/worth discussing the SSML integration w3c/dapt#121
16:08:58 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121 : Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT
16:09:04 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:10:40 <nigel> s/prosidy/prosody
16:11:40 <nigel> s/definining/defining
16:11:56 <nigel> s/equivalnent/equivalent
16:16:09 <nigel> s/Draft exit criteria at/Draft exit criteria at w3c/imsc-hrm#59
16:16:13 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/59 : Candidate Recommendation
16:16:31 <nigel> s/we should be file/we should be fine
16:18:12 <nigel> s/Strange decision/Strange decision, first time that's happened in my 10+ years with W3C.
16:18:31 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:19:51 <nigel> s|w3c/imsc-hrm#59 : Candidate Recommendation||
16:19:54 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/59 : Candidate Recommendation
16:20:05 <nigel> s|w3c/dapt#121 : Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT||
16:20:07 <Github> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/issues/121 : Clarify how to use SSML with DAPT
16:20:42 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:21:19 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:21:23 <nigel> zakim, end meeting
16:21:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Chris, Gary, Nigel, Cyril, Pierre, Atsushi
16:21:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:21:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/30-tt-minutes.html Zakim
16:21:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:21:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt
16:26:17 <nigel> Not only does the s|| not work, but the new text causes the GitHub thing to add in again the line I'm trying to delete!
16:27:05 <atsushi> fixed!
16:28:45 <atsushi> need to kick out github bot for that... lol -> new text causes
16:29:16 <atsushi> sent out new ics file...
16:29:43 <atsushi> with funny DESCRIPTION section...
16:29:53 <nigel> thank you
16:30:00 <nigel> Topic: blank
16:30:04 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
16:32:14 <atsushi> ah, there is no +o user here... we cannot use /kick command...
16:32:19 <atsushi> github, bye
16:32:26 <atsushi> Github, bye
16:32:30 <atsushi> Github, farewall
16:32:57 <atsushi> Github, end
16:46:43 <nigel> Github, leave us
16:46:50 <nigel> Github, excuse us
16:46:55 <nigel> rrsagent, excuse us
16:46:55 <RRSAgent> I see no action items