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07:00:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/28-i18n-irc
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07:04:53 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Agenda%2B+i18n%22
07:05:36 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Agenda%2B%22+label%3Ai18n-tracker
07:05:54 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/labels/i18n-tracker
07:10:09 <xfq_> fantasai: for Specify width of autospace gaps , do we need multiple controls or do we need one?
07:10:12 <xfq_> ... i think we need one
07:10:17 <xfq_> ... just want to confirm
07:10:28 <xfq_> florian: makes sense
07:10:34 <xfq_> ... punctuation works differently
07:11:11 <xfq_> xfq: I'm inclined to think we need one
07:11:18 <xfq_> ... will confirm with the i18n group
07:11:20 <fantasai> Proposal: only one control needed, would apply to all values except 'punctuation' (which would not be controlled by it)
07:11:26 <xfq_> Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
07:11:33 <xfq_> present+ florian , fantasai , xfq_ , atsushi
07:12:13 <xfq_> florian: are you talking about ideograph-alpha and ideograph-numeric
07:12:19 <xfq_> ... or is there any other thing?
07:12:30 <xfq_> fantasai: ideograph-alpha and ideograph-numeric
07:12:39 <xfq_> scribe: xfq_
07:13:03 <xfq_> florian: some very picky people might insist that they want slightly bigger spacing
07:13:18 <xfq_> ... I can't say I couldn't imagine anyone wondering about this
07:13:48 <xfq_> ... no need to do things excessively
07:14:03 <xfq_> ... it would be good to see if any lreq people think otherwise
07:14:18 <fantasai> Topic: text-spacing - what do we copy?
07:14:20 <xfq_> Topic: [css-text-4] text-autospace: what gets copied?
07:14:22 <fantasai> gtihub: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8511
07:14:27 <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8511
07:14:57 <xfq_> fantasai: open question
07:15:03 <xfq_> ... I have my own take on the issue
07:15:12 <xfq_> ... would be good to hear your opinions
07:15:33 <xfq_> florian: it's probably true you want the punctuation to be copied
07:15:50 <xfq_> ... maybe you do want the spacing because the spacing will not remain otherwise
07:16:19 <fantasai> xfq_: I think the inter-script spacing is a kind of styling
07:16:26 <fantasai> ... and it should not be copied
07:16:43 <florian> s/you do want the spacing /you do want to keep the U+20 removed by 'replace' for ideograph-alpha or numeric/
07:16:52 <xfq_> scribe+ fantasai
07:17:24 <xfq_> fantasai: some text might have U+0020 spaces and some text might not have U+0020 spaces
07:17:31 <xfq_> ... we have insert and replace keywords
07:17:50 <xfq_> ... when we copy the text do we copy whatever in the source, or do we remove the spacing
07:18:58 <fantasai> xfq_: for CR/REC ??, the editor decided not to add any inter-script spacing intentionally
07:19:11 <fantasai> ... not using U+20, because it's styling, should not be added as a space
07:19:19 <fantasai> ... also supplementary materials etc.
07:19:31 <fantasai> ... there were some ppl outside the group who thought space should be added
07:19:56 <fantasai> florian: we could look at PDF output of high-quality engines, to see what they do?
07:20:02 <fantasai> ... maybe people have thought about this before
07:20:10 <fantasai> xfq_: width of U+20 is dependent on font
07:20:14 <fantasai> florian: yes, and generally too big
07:20:37 <fantasai> fantasai: could ask Murakami-san?
07:20:42 <fantasai> florian: also Nat McCully
07:20:48 <xfq_> florian: for French @@, for CJK it's probably different
07:21:37 <xfq_> s|CR/REC ??|clreq's documents|
07:21:47 <xfq_> s/the editor/the editors
07:22:07 <florian> s/@@/it's pretty much always a correction, so keeping the corrected output seems reasonable/
07:22:23 <florian> s/CJK it's probably/CJK it might be
07:23:22 <xfq_> rrsagent, make log public
07:23:25 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
07:23:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
07:24:26 <fantasai> Topic: text-spacing: trim-all
07:24:27 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8482
07:24:43 <florian> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4246#issuecomment-1416647486
07:25:08 <xfq_> florian: for those who haven't looked at the interesting comment in another thread that gives more details it's this one ^
07:25:22 <xfq_> ... I kind of agree to your opening comment
07:26:32 <xfq_> florian: can we ask Unicode to add half-width variants of commas and middle dots, or is it unrealistic?
07:26:50 <xfq_> fantasai: do we need a <num> tag in HTML?
07:27:03 <xfq_> florian: this is also a plain text problem
07:27:22 <xfq_> s/florian: this is also a plain text problem/fantasai: this is also a plain text problem
07:27:55 <xfq_> florian: all these CJ punctuations should never have the space baked in them
07:28:02 <xfq_> fantasai: this is the problem
07:28:47 <xfq_> https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2017/17056-sv-western-vs-eastasian.pdf
07:29:33 <xfq_> https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2017/17436r-sv-eastsian-punct.pdf
07:30:03 <xfq_> florian: CSS is the easiest place to introduce it, but maybe not the correct place to introduce it
07:31:27 <xfq_> fantasai: VS 1 for western style and VS 2 for east asian style
07:31:36 <xfq_> ... VS1 for left-aligned and VS2 for centered
07:31:57 <xfq_> ... we don't have a way to indicate half-width in a consistent way
07:32:15 <xfq_> ... we need to start a discussion with Ken Lunde also
07:32:48 <xfq_> ... should we start an email thread for that purpose?
07:33:22 <xfq_> public-i18n-core
07:33:32 <fantasai> Ken Lunde
07:33:35 <fantasai> Murakami-san
07:33:44 <fantasai> fantasai + florian
07:33:54 <fantasai> Nat McCully
07:34:22 <xfq_> florian: do we also want to involve any browser implementer people?
07:34:32 <fantasai> Jonathan Kew
07:34:38 <fantasai> Myles Maxfield
07:34:46 <fantasai> Koji Ishii
07:36:03 <xfq_> fantasai: we should probably do whatever is implemented in the font
07:36:21 <xfq_> ... if VS is adopted and not all fonts implement this
07:36:35 <xfq_> ... should the browsers compensate this somehow
07:36:45 <fantasai> s/the font/the Adobe fonts, even though the way Ken set up the VS selectors is inconsistent/
07:36:58 <fantasai> xfq_: It's more difficult to update the fonts than to update the browsers
07:37:26 <fantasai> florian: can this be handled by the text rendering layer, underneath the layout engine
07:37:34 <xfq_> florian: is that the sort of thing that should by halfbuzz?
07:37:48 <xfq_> s/halfbuzz/HarfBuzz
07:38:09 <xfq_> florian: it does the right thing for some definition of right thing but the right thing is underdefined
07:38:24 <fantasai> i/fantasai/Behdad Esfabod?/
07:39:00 <xfq_> s/should by/should be handled by
07:39:25 <xfq_> florian: do we possibly want to involve Behdad, or is that too many people in the same thread?
07:39:51 <xfq_> fantasai: we could start with a smaller group
07:39:55 <xfq_> ... it's a public thread
07:40:03 <xfq_> florian: it's an option, let's go with that
07:40:06 <xfq_> xfq_: +1
07:40:49 <xfq_> florian: we could involve Kida-san
07:43:27 <fantasai> ],
07:43:42 <xfq_> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6091
07:44:02 <atsushi> https://github.com/w3c/jlreq/pull/358
07:44:12 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6091#issuecomment-1406082714
07:44:25 <xfq_> atsushi: for jlreq we discussed this and produced combinations
07:44:32 <fantasai> i/],/Topic: Fullwidth Collapsing before stops and commas
07:44:33 <xfq_> ... waiting for final check from Kida-san
07:45:11 <xfq_> florian: didn't we handle this already?
07:45:22 <xfq_> fantasai: we did follow up
07:45:30 <xfq_> ... but that doesn't cover commas and periods
07:46:07 <xfq_> ... colons and semicolons
07:46:36 <xfq_> florian: if it's 2-3 it's fine, if it's 15 maybe we need a different approach
07:47:04 <xfq_> atsushi: I believe in jlreq TF no one objects to Pf or Pe
07:47:42 <xfq_> florian: we want pretty much all sentence ending punctuations fit in the same box
07:47:48 <xfq_> ... there's quite a few of them
07:48:00 <florian> s/all sentence ending/all sentence or phrase ending
07:48:29 <xfq_> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/21-clreq-minutes.html#t02
07:48:44 <fantasai> xfq_: Chinese group also discussed, but concluded that no fullwidth punctuation should be trimmed
07:48:58 <fantasai> ... since it would not be part of the Chinese text
07:49:03 <fantasai> florian: It looks weird, but don't correct it?
07:49:55 <xfq_> fantasai: do we handle C and J differently?
07:50:31 <fantasai> xfq_: So for some punctuation, fullwidth bracket is center-aligned
07:50:34 <fantasai> ... it may cause a problem
07:51:00 <xfq_> s/some punctuation/some fonts
07:51:07 <fantasai> florian: in Korean, Murakami was saying that they mainly use ASCII punctuations, but sometimes mix with fullwidth brackets
07:51:50 <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/21-clreq-minutes.html#x111
07:53:03 <xfq_> florian: it's never right to handle it right
07:53:20 <xfq_> ... for Korean @@
07:54:19 <florian> s/@@/it seems needed. If it's merely unnecessary rather than wrong for Chinese, then maybe we should indeed do it
07:54:33 <fantasai> xfq_: discussed having different switches for different punctuation
07:54:37 <fantasai> ... or using SPAN
07:54:53 <fantasai> florian: What's the use case for keeping the space? I see a reason to not care, but what's the use case for wanting the extra space to stay?
07:55:10 <fantasai> ... if you have fullwidth bracket followed by a period
07:55:47 <fantasai> fantasai: If you have centered fullwidth brackets, you must never trim. It's not about mixing with ASCII or not
07:56:33 <xfq_> fantasai: in the spec we have rules about fullwidth punctuation
07:56:49 <xfq_> ... if we need to we can expand the rule
07:56:57 <fantasai> ... changing behavior between centered vs non-centered punctuation
07:57:03 <fantasai> “Whether fullwidth colon punctuation and fullwidth dot punctuation should be considered fullwidth closing punctuation or fullwidth middle dot punctuation depends on where in the glyph’s box the punctuation is drawn. If the punctuation is centered, then it should be considered middle dot punctuation. If the punctuation is drawn to one side (left in horizontal text, top in vertical text) and the other
07:57:09 <fantasai> half is therefore blank then the punctuation should be considered closing punctuation and trimmed accordingly. ”
07:57:15 <xfq_> florian: we need to make sure the rule protects center-aligned punctuations
07:58:15 <xfq_> fantasai: currently it assumes the fullwidth bracket is always on one side
07:58:18 <fantasai> fantasai: Right now the spec assumes only colon and dot punctuation can be centered
07:58:36 <fantasai> ... if Chinese has centered brackets now, then we need to make updates to the spec
08:00:30 <xfq_> fantasai: it would be useful to understand why the fonts are designed that way
08:00:48 <fantasai> ... I wonder if the centering of such brackets is due to the lack of software support for space collapsing
08:01:05 <fantasai> ... since if the software doesn't support such collapsing, it looks better to have centered brackets
08:01:28 <fantasai> ... IIRC the rules in Chinese, you're not supposed to have centered brackets
08:01:37 <fantasai> xfq_: True. Some fonts do, though. Not most
08:01:47 <xfq_> Microsoft JhengHei
08:01:50 <fantasai> ... including some fonts that come with OS
08:02:03 <fantasai> florian: These would have trouble with any kind of collapsing, not just the mix with ASCII
08:03:06 <fantasai> fantasai: If it's only a few fonts right now, then hopefully if we deploy trimming then fonts will have less incentive to do such things
08:03:08 <xfq_> florian: if these become famous the browsers can make a safelist
08:03:19 <xfq_> s/ these become/ these fonts become
08:03:22 <fantasai> fantasai: also authors who want such fonts specifically can turn off collapsing
08:03:49 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
08:03:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
08:03:57 <fantasai> fantasai: Back to the issue, I think we should handle ASCII periods and commas at least
08:03:57 <fantasai> ... less sure about colons and semicolons
08:04:00 <florian> s/if these fonts become famous the browsers can make a safelist/if there are a few famous fonts among the problematic ones, special processing can be hardcoded in browsers
08:05:28 <fantasai> florian: interrobang maybe also
08:05:53 <xfq_> fantasai: don't need to do as far as things like Indic dandas
08:06:20 <florian> s/interrobang maybe also/interrobang maybe also, it's probably not part of ASCII, but conceptually it belongs to the same set of latin-derived broadly used punctuations
08:06:54 <xfq_> fantasai: what happens if you have CJK closing bracket following by a U+20 space
08:07:13 <xfq_> florian: if it's closing bracket, u+20 space, and kanji
08:07:24 <xfq_> ... currently don't do anything
08:07:32 <xfq_> ... people have a tendency to use space for alighment
08:07:37 <xfq_> ... and they shouldn't do
08:07:56 <xfq_> florian: we should only collapse ideograph space, but not ascii space and any other space
08:08:04 <fantasai> s/florian/fantasai/
08:09:10 <xfq_> xfq_: what's the default value for text-space-trim?
08:09:44 <xfq_> s/text-space-trim?/text-spacing-trim?
08:10:04 <xfq_> fantasai: by default we turn it on
08:10:11 <xfq_> rrsagent, make minutes
08:10:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
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