16:55:17 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:55:21 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/23-aria-irc 16:55:21 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:55:22 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 16:55:46 agendabot, find agenda 16:55:46 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:55:47 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a6fb79ca-0041-4654-8aae-70af8fee0b63/20230323T130000 16:55:47 clear agenda 16:55:47 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/42uZ3nH 16:55:47 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JA0U21 16:55:49 agenda+ -> F2F planning https://bit.ly/42s3KyP , -> F2F Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023ARIAf2f/ 16:55:52 agenda+ -> aria-hidden error case: disallow aria-hidden on root or document element (e.g. or ) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1254 16:55:56 agenda+ -> Discuss how to break up the computedlabel tests in wpt/accname (to verify AccName computation) https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/190 16:55:59 agenda+ -> Need a decision on what the computedrole should return on extension specs https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1887 16:56:02 agenda+ -> Role parity: consider "native-" or "host-" role prefix for host language elements (including audio/video, but not limited to media) where custom ARIA implementations cannot (yet) match the native implementation's accessibility. https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/529 16:56:16 regrets+ spectranaut 16:56:23 regrets+ CurtBellew 16:56:34 regrets+ MarkMcCarthy 16:56:47 regrets+ PeterKrautzberger 16:59:36 Adam_Page has joined #aria 17:00:30 BenBeaudry has joined #aria 17:00:38 present+ 17:03:24 scotto has joined #aria 17:03:35 scribe: BenBeaudry 17:03:40 present+ Daniel 17:03:43 zakim, next item 17:03:43 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/42uZ3nH -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:03:47 present+ 17:03:57 present+ 17:05:22 jamesn: can james craig explain issue 1895 17:06:18 jcraig: needs to be an idl default that never changes and reflects the value 17:06:24 jcraig: this should be almost editorial 17:07:03 jcraig: it should be generated and/or cross referenced 17:08:17 jcraig: no pref regarding 1.3 or 1.4, but let's call it for 1.4 for now and we'll get to it 17:08:54 jamesn: next is 1893 17:09:20 jamesn: this is a dup. 17:09:28 jcraig: I filed this as an editorial change 17:10:06 jamesn: when it is capitalized it is used in a normative way. When it's not capitalized that's where we should reconsider 17:10:29 sarah_higley has joined #aria 17:11:18 jcraig: doesn't make sense to me that we have a normative statement for something we might want to do. 17:12:04 jcraig: not certain this is a a dup but maybe it should be incorporated in the original 17:12:12 jamesn: next is 1892 17:13:02 jcraig: we can't have a "MUST" normative statement for ATs. It should be replaced by "SHOULD 17:13:22 jcraig: ATs MUST follow seems incorrect in this context 17:13:45 jamesn: if we say SHOULD it's not a requirement, right? 17:14:30 jamesn: there's duplication, we should remove this repetition 17:15:33 jcraig: feels like there's more than a triage discussion here 17:15:51 jamesn: let's discuss it with Valerie 17:16:10 jamesn: next, 1891 17:16:32 StefanS has joined #aria 17:16:34 jcraig: seems reasonable 17:16:39 present+ 17:16:48 jamesn: I don't like when it feels like we're duplicating work 17:18:25 jamesn: that's it for triage 17:18:36 zakim, next item 17:18:36 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3JA0U21 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:19:27 jamesn: PR #1894 is completely editorial, right 17:19:35 jcraig: is that change removing that? 17:19:41 jamesn: no it's adding a default 17:20:47 jcraig: looks like the strong got removed 17:20:57 jamesn: ah, yes it removed the default 17:21:12 jcraig: I think this is related to the IDL changes it needs to reflect 17:21:49 jamesn: it doesn't help a developer to look at aria-atomic and see that the default is sometimes false 17:22:45 jamesn: this needs reviewers. James Craig, Valerie too, Scott too and myself 17:23:09 jamesn: next, PR 167 from Valerie 17:23:23 jamesn: enough reviewers assigned so no need to go over it in triage 17:23:27 zakim, next item 17:23:27 agendum 3 -- -> F2F planning https://bit.ly/42s3KyP , -> F2F Survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023ARIAf2f/ -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:24:24 jamesn: survey currently has 8 responders, 7 attendees so far. IT would be great to have at least everybody who said in the previous survey they would attend to also confirm in this separate form. 17:24:51 jamesn: so folks can start shopping for flights if needed. 7 is probably enough but we want everybody 17:25:14 zakim, next item 17:25:14 agendum 4 -- -> aria-hidden error case: disallow aria-hidden on root or document element (e.g. or ) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1254 -- taken up [from 17:25:17 ... agendabot] 17:25:23 F2F Survey results https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023ARIAf2f/results 17:26:14 jamesn: aria hidden error case: we just want to confirm what we decided on this. We couldn't remember and the minutes weren't clear enough 17:26:33 jamesn: Scott created a PR to change the authoring requirements to not do this, right Scott? 17:26:38 scotto: right 17:27:09 jcraig: the reason this is an anti pattern is because the authors are doing it anyways 17:27:24 jcraig: I updated the issue very recently and thought it should be a no op 17:28:05 jcraig: it would be a no op that would reflect the value 17:28:13 jamesn: so this would be a core aam then 17:28:16 jcraig: I think so 17:28:28 jcraig: do we need another spec change and then another change to core aam? 17:28:46 jamesn: we could add an authors must not or something like that 17:28:55 scotto: my PR is actually both Authors and UA requirements 17:29:09 jamesn: your PRs doesn't have UA requirements right? 17:29:13 scotto: there's two PRs 17:29:39 scotto: there's an aria PR and jcraig is already reviewing it 17:29:53 jamesn: cool sorry I'm way behind 17:30:14 jamesn: so we just have a bunch of work to review things 17:30:20 scotto: need some help with the language on this PR 17:30:44 soctto: there probably is stuff that should go into one of the AAMs. 17:31:07 scotto: Not sure Core AAM is enough, HTML AAM might be an option too. 17:31:36 scotto: could also consider svg aam or math aam 17:33:08 zakim, next item 17:33:08 agendum 5 -- -> Discuss how to break up the computedlabel tests in wpt/accname (to verify AccName computation) https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/190 -- taken up [from 17:33:11 ... agendabot] 17:33:56 jcraig: the intial PR to WPT landed, it's the test driver update so these roles are possible 17:34:22 jcraig: it should make roles test much easier, like if you know HTML you should be able to do it 17:36:10 jcraig: right now the accessibility folder is just crash tests. There are other folders for roles and stuff and there's an accname folder and ideally we woudln't want to test it in a giant file but unlike the aria role tests it wasn't clear to me how to break this into files. 17:36:33 jcraig: I wanted to bounce ideas around with this group to find out how to break down these tests like I broke down... 17:37:10 https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-2023-accessibility-testing/issues 17:38:04 jcraig: if you look at the issues list there's #8 towards the bottom and I broke it down into fallback role tests, abstract roles tests, etc. 17:39:46 jcraig: please do comment on the issue with your ideas 17:40:33 jcraig: this guy from Google wrote a bunch of aria label tests for Chromium 17:40:57 jcraig: we could port those directly to WPT and all the other ones that are relevant for WPT 17:41:11 zakim, next item 17:41:11 agendum 6 -- -> Need a decision on what the computedrole should return on extension specs https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1887 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:41:56 jcraig: right now, one of the things that's fallen out of this is... let me share my screen 17:43:27 jcraig: in PR 38845, if we look at the files changed, there's a difference between the graphics-document/object/symbols 17:44:19 jcraig: in graphics-roles.html we're returning the right role that matches the webkit implementation 17:44:29 jcraig: chrome is not cause they're returning the actual role string 17:45:25 q 17:45:30 q+ 17:45:58 jcraig: Chromium and WebKit have a different behaviors 17:46:08 BenBeaudry: Aaron and I will follow up offline 17:47:05 jamesn: what's the point of having this roles if WebKit doesn't return them 17:48:22 jcraig: the WebKit behavior comes from deep hub (?) 17:48:50 jcraig: either impl is okay if chrome wants to keep what they have 17:50:16 jamesn: what's the point of using these roles if we're exposing the super role anyway? 17:50:25 q+ 17:50:30 ack me 17:51:06 q? 17:51:35 ack me 17:54:18 jamesn: we have people following up on this 17:54:19 zakim, next item 17:54:19 agendum 7 -- -> Role parity: consider "native-" or "host-" role prefix for host language elements (including audio/video, but not limited to media) where custom ARIA 17:54:22 ... implementations cannot (yet) match the native implementation's accessibility. https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/529 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:54:39 jamesn: we touched on this one briefly last week 17:54:58 jamesn: we talked about putting them in Core AAM 17:55:12 jamesn: Valerie was starting to work on a PR for this 17:55:17 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/167 17:59:12 jamesn: what should it map to if there's no computed role? 17:59:33 scotto: generic is what it goes to. It's either the explicit aria role and the generic one 18:01:00 jcraig: tables don't always map to table 18:01:25 jamesn: I'm not sure if that's not even controversial. It might return a computed role of table 18:01:45 scotto: we should stop having heuristics and actually define how tables map 18:02:00 jcraig: most browser engines use heuristics in this case 18:02:09 jamesn: we're past the hour 18:02:26 chair: JamesNurthen 18:02:30 meeting: ARIA WG 18:02:39 present+ 18:02:56 zakim, end meeting 18:02:56 As of this point the attendees have been BenBeaudry, Daniel, scotto, Adam_Page, StefanS, jcraig 18:02:58 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:03:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/23-aria-minutes.html Zakim 18:03:07 I am happy to have been of service, BenBeaudry; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:03:07 Zakim has left #aria 19:19:50 jongund has joined #aria