18:53:22 RRSAgent has joined #aria-at 18:53:27 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/23-aria-at-irc 18:56:00 MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group 18:56:08 CHAIR: Matt King 18:56:11 present+ 18:56:17 rrsagent, make log public 18:56:25 rrsagent, make minutes 18:56:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/23-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King 18:59:23 jugglinmike has joined #aria-at 19:02:09 Sam_Shaw has joined #aria-at 19:02:13 present+ 19:07:41 Zakim, start the meeting 19:07:41 RRSAgent, make logs Public 19:07:42 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike 19:08:08 MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference 19:08:13 present+ jugglinmike 19:08:18 scribe+ jugglinmike 19:09:24 Topic: Meeting tine survey 19:09:58 Sam_Shaw: We got 10 responses. This slot on Thursdays works for 5, it's somewhat workable for one person, and not workable for four. 19:11:35 Sam_Shaw: The other slots are definitely workable for fewer people 19:12:34 Matt_King: There were 17 responses on the first version of this survey, which had more time slots on it 19:15:28 present+ Alyssa_Gourley 19:16:02 Alyssa_Gourley: It might be a little confusing, but we could alternate between two different meeting times every week 19:16:04 JoeHumbert has joined #aria-at 19:16:17 Matt_King: That sounds like a pretty good idea. Thank you 19:16:33 Sam_Shaw: I will send the survey results to Bocoup 19:16:47 Topic: testing schedule 19:17:47 Matt_King: I'd like to decide which tests we still want to perform in March, and from information we currently have available, pick the next three-to-five patterns we'd like to pick in the April-to-May timeframe 19:18:55 Matt_King: I want to figure out exactly where we're incomplete on any test plans 19:19:03 present+ James_Scholes 19:19:25 James_Scholes: Testing is totally complete, I think one tester just forgot to press the "submit" button 19:19:37 James_Scholes: We're just blocked on not having any prioritization in the spreadsheet 19:19:50 jongund has joined #aria-at 19:19:58 Matt_King: Then let's pick a candidate so we have an immediate plan 19:21:29 Matt_King: Here's the planning spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q9PI7wXjfBvnsl2-_56-HEYpGB36JJxjKPOytldeyYI/edit?usp=sharing 19:21:44 Matt_King: We didn't put a column for us to specify a sequence and then sort by that 19:22:16 James_Scholes: I was expecting just to re-order the rows 19:23:08 Matt_King: The only problem with that is that it prevents us from being able to sort the spreadsheet for other purposes--if we do that without a dedicated column for "priority," we won't be able to restore the priority order 19:23:36 James_Scholes: Understood 19:23:58 Matt_King: Okay, then I'll add a column to track priority 19:24:46 present+ jongund 19:25:35 Matt_King: There are two different kinds of testing we can do at this point. One is we can do testing for more combinations of the first eight patterns. Another is we can get other patterns ready for the "candidate review" phase 19:25:56 Matt_King: My preference would be to have at least two more test plans ready for "candidate review" 19:27:27 Matt_King: I say this because I don't know how much more work we'll have to do with screen reader developers in terms of changes to the plans. My expectation is not much. I may be wrong, but I think we'll get about five plans to the "recommended" phase in the coming weeks. That would leave us room to get a few more plans in candidate review 19:27:40 James_Scholes: I agree with that--if we can make it happen, that'd be good. 19:27:47 present+ 19:28:08 James_Scholes: Hopefully, in the mean time, we can get the data we need to prioritize the plans we have in the sheet 19:29:12 Matt_King: We don't have VoiceOver with Chrome or Firefox with JAWS or Firefox with NVDA. That's not a great thing for APG. We should work on filling in those three gaps next, especially for the first five we have ready for recommended 19:29:46 James_Scholes: That's a lot of work. We can commit to that, or we can look at doing two more plans with the existing combinations. 19:30:10 Matt_King: My preference is to make sure we have at least two plans ready for candidate review first, and then go back and extend coverage for the others 19:30:38 James_Scholes: My preference would be to revisit the first eight with more combinations, and then to start prioritizing the spreadsheet once we have APG visitor data 19:31:32 Matt_King: If we did the first five with those three screen reader combinations, then that would be a significant improvement to what shows up in the APG. Essentially, we'd go from providing three data points to providing six data points for support 19:31:57 Matt_King: Maybe that's what we should do, then! 19:32:09 James_Scholes: Will we need two testers for each? 19:32:19 Matt_King: Yes, for quality-control purposes 19:33:51 present+ Dylan_Sheffer 19:34:13 Dylan_Sheffer: I volunteer to do some testing. I have access to JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver 19:36:28 Matt_King: Great. Which one we ask you to test will depend on what other people are able to test 19:36:47 jongund: I can take a few. I also have access to JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver 19:37:42 jongund: I'll take VoiceOver and Chrome 19:38:33 Dylan_Sheffer: I'll take Firefox and JAWS 19:38:52 Matt_King: Let's start with the "Command Button" and "Toggle Button" pattern 19:39:08 Matt_King: And then we'd go to "Alert", then "Link", and then "Radio" 19:39:21 Matt_King: But for now, let's try to get aligned on doing two at a time 19:40:47 Alyssa_Gourley: I can take NVDA and Firefox 19:41:12 Matt_King: Basically, for Windows screen readers, we're doing Firefox, and for macOS, we're doing Chrome 19:41:49 Matt_King: I said "VoiceOver and Firefox" is out-of-scope. I said that partly to conserve our bandwidth, but also because I would be surprised if any screen reader users use that combination 19:42:17 Alyssa_Gourley: I think JAWS and Firefox could be interesting, though I don't know if people actually use that combination, either 19:42:19 i need to leave early 19:42:56 JoeHumbert: WebAIM has rough usage statistics 19:43:21 JoeHumbert: The most recent data I can find is from 2021 19:44:57 (discussion of the WebAIM survey data) 19:46:16 Matt_King: We have a plan for the next couple weeks. We'll revisit on a rolling basis 19:46:39 James_Scholes: I'll send out an e-mail with some guidance to the volunteers 19:47:25 Topic: Gathering broader community input 19:48:55 Matt_King: I've been thinking about creating a survey with a Google Form, maybe opening it up to the whole ARIA working group (I don't know about going broader than that), and make a short survey. Three questions: which of these test plans (and provide a list) do you think is most important? Second question: which is the next-most important? And third: which is the third-most-important? 19:49:23 Matt_King: Basically, just say, "pick you top three" and use that as one of our inputs. 19:49:34 Matt_King: As opposed to making this decision just within this group 19:50:13 James_Scholes: We've had this spreadsheet for just over a month, and we haven't made any inroads on it. If we're going to do this, we should do it sooner rather than later. 19:50:45 Matt_King: This doesn't have to be on the critical path. We could use input like this at any point to inform the decisions we're trying to make at that moment. It doesn't have to line up perfectly with today, for instance 19:50:50 James_Scholes: That makes sense 19:51:33 Matt_King: And maybe instead of plans, we just list the patterns. There's two different kinds of List Box, five different kinds of Slider. Maybe we don't need to break it down into so much detail. Does that seem reasonable? 19:52:14 James_Scholes: Someone may think that testing a certain type of slider is very important more than they think that testing sliders in general is important 19:52:19 Matt_King: That seems unlikely to me 19:52:44 Alyssa_Gourley: limiting the survey to the patterns would make the list much shorter 19:52:58 Matt_King: I'm also thinking about what we need from the data 19:53:48 James_Scholes: So if Slider was a "winner", would we prioritize all five of the slider plans? 19:54:14 Matt_King: I think we would just make sure to prioritize at least one representative example 19:54:47 Sam_Shaw: We can think about it, discuss it, and come back with a proposal 19:54:56 Matt_King: Okay, then lets give it a shot 19:55:03 Topic: AT Support Table Launch Plan 19:55:20 Matt_King: The Bocoup team is working on updating the app so we have the ability to publish the latest data to the reports 19:55:58 Matt_King: I'm hoping that there's only one bug in the current sandbox code that needs to be fixed, and then it will do the basics of what we need it to do so then we can push the latest data to the report site. Then, we'll be able to point the APG iframes to the latest "report" site 19:56:27 Matt_King: At the same time, we're going to bring Apple and Vispero into the discussion, showing them the preview and some early launch messaging 19:56:52 Matt_King: I sent an e-mail to this effect to Vispero, and I'm going to send one to Apple 19:57:23 Matt_King: I mentioned that this will be ready for them to look at next week. Which is a bit of a risk, since it's not ready yet 19:57:42 Matt_King: We'll finish preparation for the launch during the week of April 3. 19:57:51 Matt_King: We'll publish the APG on Tuesday, April 11. 19:57:59 Matt_King: We'll make sure everything looks good on April 12 19:58:05 Matt_King: We'll make the announcement on April 13 20:00:38 Matt_King: I didn't mention the APG preview in pr 2569 in my message to Vispero. Some content changes are not available, and some of the JAWS data is not the correct data. I'm going to follow up with Alex Flennikan about this in the pull request 20:01:02 Matt_King: Since we can't push the latest test results to production, it's hard to see what the latest test results are 20:01:29 Matt_King: For instance, I don't know what the scores for JAWS with the Toggle Button are. Right now, I'd have to manually walk through the plans 20:01:47 Matt_King: I'll be writing up that feedback. There's data that we need to be able to run the process that we still can't see 20:02:50 Matt_King: For Monday, we're looking for the bug fix that Howard is working on right now. I want to be able to test that and then deploy it to production 20:03:04 Matt_King: Then we can promote the test results that we currently have in the queue to the test site 20:03:44 Zakim, end the meeting 20:03:44 As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, Sam_Shaw, jugglinmike, Alyssa_Gourley, James_Scholes, jongund, JoeHumbert, Dylan_Sheffer 20:03:46 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 20:03:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/23-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim 20:03:54 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 20:03:54 Zakim has left #aria-at 20:04:09 Zakim, leave 20:04:24 Uhg 20:04:34 RRSAgent, leave 20:04:34 I see no action items