15:54:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:54:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-irc
15:54:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:54:52 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
15:54:55 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG
15:54:59 <pchampin> agenda: https://beta.w3.org/events/meetings/f2add3af-6743-4f52-8fcc-4f62c6cdd8af/20230316T120000/
15:54:59 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:54:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir
15:54:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Approve last week's minutes  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html  Approve 2023-02-23 minutes  -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:54:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Resolutions for topics presented on list [3]
15:55:00 <agendabot> agenda+ Semantic Predication discussion
15:55:03 <agendabot> agenda+ WG Process Updates
15:55:05 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB (time permitting)
15:55:58 <afs> afs has joined #rdf-star
15:56:27 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
15:57:19 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG — 2023-03-16 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f2add3af-6743-4f52-8fcc-4f62c6cdd8af/20230316T120000#agenda
15:57:57 <gkellogg_> gkellogg_ has joined #rdf-star
16:00:10 <pfps> present+
16:00:46 <ktk> present+
16:01:03 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:01:19 <gkellogg_> present+
16:01:47 <gtw> present+
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16:03:51 <ora> present+
16:04:36 <pchampin> present+
16:04:36 <doerthe> present+
16:04:36 <ora> scribe+
16:04:36 <gkellogg_> zakim, who's here?
16:04:36 <Zakim> Present: pfps, ktk, gkellogg_, gtw, ora, pchampin, doerthe
16:04:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see doerthe, olaf, ora, gkellogg_, pfps, afs, RRSAgent, Zakim, TallTed, csarven, VladimirAlexiev, Timothe, ghurlbot, ktk, gtw, driib, Tpt, rhiaro, agendabot, pchampin
16:04:36 <afs> present+
16:04:36 <TallTed> present+
16:04:48 <pfps> q+
16:05:00 <pchampin> zakim, next agendum
16:05:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:05 <pchampin> zakim, open agendum 2
16:05:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approve last week's minutes  -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html  Approve 2023-02-23 minutes  -> 2
16:05:08 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:28 <ora> pfps: Still problems with last week's minutes
16:05:41 <ora> ... no subtopics
16:05:49 <ora> ... things hard to find
16:05:51 <TallTed> chair: ktk
16:06:07 <TallTed> q+
16:06:09 <pchampin> q+
16:06:39 <ora> pfps: Soon it will be hard to find what we discussed, important stuff. Minutes should support finding what we did.
16:06:49 <ora> ktk: I am at a loss of words.
16:06:50 <pchampin> ack pfps
16:06:55 <pchampin> ack TallTed
16:07:17 <ora> TallTed: You have a very specific idea of what should be there. W3C has a very loose idea of what minutes are.
16:07:21 <pfps> last week's minutes are minimally acceptable - it would be much better if there were subtopics that were included
16:08:03 <ora> ... If there are specific changes you want, draft them, but now we are wasting time. I agree they are not perfect: welcome tyo humanity. Automatic scribing would be worse.
16:08:12 <pfps> q+
16:08:53 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:09:15 <pfps> I'm happy suggesting changes to the minutes via email or some other method
16:09:20 <ora> pchampin: I have a proposal I was making for the CG: For every issue and pull request add a link to the minutes, specific point. Typically when you look at a pull request, you want to know how that relates to what was discussed.
16:10:08 <ora> pfps: I can add the things that I find are missing.
16:10:09 <pfps> q-
16:10:28 <ora> ktk: Objections?
16:10:30 <olaf> present+
16:10:34 <ora> pfps: No
16:10:55 <ora> ktk: Minutes are approved from last week.
16:11:06 <pfps> updated minutes from 23 Feb look fine
16:11:06 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: approve minutes  https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:11:10 <ora> ... Now the minutes from 23rd of February
16:11:31 <ora> pchampin: I added the relevant topics to address Peter's concerns.
16:11:41 <ora> ktk: These minutes are also accepted.
16:12:05 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: approve minutes https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:12:18 <ora> Zakim: next item
16:12:24 <pchampin> zakim, next item
16:12:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:12:34 <pchampin> zakim, open item 3
16:12:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Resolutions for topics presented on list -- taken up [from 3 via agendabot]
16:12:57 <TallTed> s/Zakim: next item//
16:13:05 <ora> ktk: me, ora and pchampin went through Peter's suggestions
16:13:10 <pchampin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Mar/0064.html
16:13:23 <pchampin> proposals after ""Potential proposed resolutions""
16:13:30 <ora> ... Now my interpretation is that Peter wants these officially accepteed by the WG
16:13:52 <ora> pfps: I call them "potential", they are examples
16:14:00 <gkellogg_> q+ to discuss call for clarification on open pull requests
16:14:06 <TallTed> q+
16:14:44 <ora> gkellogg: I wanted to discuss my repeated calls for open pull requests
16:14:58 <pchampin> q+
16:15:18 <ora> ... There are some process proposals, I responded to those. For example, make better use of the existing project, add issues there.
16:16:02 <ora> ... I interpreted that I needed to stop work. What can we merge, what can we work on? Many pull requests open in RDF concepts and N-quads.
16:16:06 <ktk> ack gkellogg_
16:16:06 <Zakim> gkellogg_, you wanted to discuss call for clarification on open pull requests
16:16:52 <ora> TallTed: Things at the end of Peter's email are issues
16:17:05 <ora> ... The old method of just using the mailing list is unwieldy.
16:17:11 <ktk> ack TallTed
16:17:12 <pchampin> +1 to favour GH issues over the mailing list
16:17:42 <ora> pchampin: We have not quite figured out how to use the GH project.
16:18:10 <ora> ... Adrian put me in touch with his dev ops person, he can help.
16:18:36 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:18:43 <gkellogg_> Recall that issues can be manually added to the project: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/1
16:18:46 <ktk> q+
16:18:49 <ora> ... We have not resolved to publish our FPWD, we need to make progress towards that.
16:19:13 <ora> ktk: Greg, you made some suggestions about pull requests.
16:19:29 <ora> s/Greg/Gregg
16:19:40 <ktk> this guide from gkellogg_ https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Editor's-guide
16:21:19 <pfps> which pull request is the one being talked about?
16:21:42 <ora> gkellogg: Pull requests: if there is a review process, and it requests changes and blocks ability to merge, that needs to be resolved, the pull request needs to go back or the status of the review needs to be changed.
16:22:39 <pfps> I think the pull request is https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/16
16:23:00 <ora> gkellogg: Asking for changes blocks a pull request.
16:23:32 <ora> gkellogg: I was asked to address the pull request process re: editors' guide.
16:24:03 <ora> ... Asking for changes means you have the duty to clear your comment for progress to be made.
16:24:28 <ora> ... GH is for this, not discussing everything individually in meetings.
16:24:35 <ora> ... Can we make use of GH tags?
16:24:51 <VladimirAlexiev> ...we can use github tags to reflect the status of issues
16:25:12 <TallTed> q+ to note that tags are only available to Editors/CODEOWNERS ...
16:25:18 <ora> scribe+ VladimirAlexiev
16:25:23 <ktk> ack ktk
16:25:44 <VladimirAlexiev> ack TallTed
16:25:44 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to note that tags are only available to Editors/CODEOWNERS ...
16:26:56 <VladimirAlexiev> q+ Can't we let more than the editors edit tags, and maybe even add assignees?
16:27:01 <gkellogg_> Have we set up CODEOWNERS?
16:27:47 <TallTed> q+ VladimirAlexiev to ask  Can't we let more than the editors edit tags, and maybe even add assignees?
16:28:04 <gkellogg_> q+
16:28:25 <pchampin> scribe+
16:28:31 <TallTed> ack VladimirAlexiev
16:28:31 <Zakim> VladimirAlexiev, you wanted to ask  Can't we let more than the editors edit tags, and maybe even add assignees?
16:28:50 <pchampin>  VladimirAlexiev: we could have a smaller set of people approviing changes, but more people assigning tags
16:28:51 <pchampin> q+
16:29:08 <pchampin> s/assigning/editing/
16:29:21 <pchampin> ... Gregg, what is "code owner? A Github mechanism?
16:29:51 <TallTed> CODEOWNERS also have various permissions (e.g., merging PRs) that others don't
16:29:55 <ktk> ack gkellogg_
16:29:59 <pchampin> gkellogg: yes, it is something that can be setup in github
16:30:00 <VladimirAlexiev> gkellogg: CODEOWNERS is a mechanism to automatically assign PRs to editors for review before the PR is merged (of course, anyone can request more reviews)
16:30:05 <pchampin> scribe-
16:31:46 <TallTed> the GitHub Notifications page is https://github.com/notifications ... also useful is the base https://github.com/
16:31:59 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:32:44 <gkellogg_> +1 to giving WG members "triage" permissions to repos.
16:32:47 <ora> +1 on everyone being able to add tags
16:32:55 <VladimirAlexiev> pchampin: currently only W3C editors have write access to repo, and contributors have read access (i.e. must make PRs). There's also a github level "triage" that lets people edit tags and assign issues
16:32:58 <afs> q+
16:33:11 <pchampin> https://docs.github.com/en/organizations/managing-user-access-to-your-organizations-repositories/repository-roles-for-an-organization#permissions-for-each-role
16:33:11 <afs> q-
16:33:55 <gkellogg_> +1
16:33:57 <ora> +1
16:33:58 <VladimirAlexiev> TallTed: let's setup these Github features, and we can always revert if in the future the process doesn't work out
16:34:03 <gtw> +1
16:34:03 <VladimirAlexiev> +1
16:34:04 <ktk> +1
16:34:09 <afs> +1
16:34:11 <pchampin> +1
16:34:14 <TallTed> looks like a draft proposal, as an emote
16:34:29 <olaf> +1
16:34:38 <TallTed> +1
16:34:52 <doerthe> +1
16:34:53 <VladimirAlexiev> q+ to ask about github Discussions, which are kind of like Issues but may be better for well... discussions
16:35:11 <ktk> ack VladimirAlexiev
16:35:11 <Zakim> VladimirAlexiev, you wanted to ask about github Discussions, which are kind of like Issues but may be better for well... discussions
16:35:22 <TallTed> theoretically, only Chairs should add PROPOSED or RESOLVED items
16:35:24 <pfps> +1
16:35:38 <TallTed> q+ to talk briefly about GH Discussions
16:35:45 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: give Triage permission to all WG participants in all of our repos
16:35:53 <pchampin> action: pchampin to  give Triage permission to all WG participants in all of our repos
16:36:00 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #34 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/34
16:36:21 <VladimirAlexiev> https://docs.github.com/en/discussions
16:36:33 <afs> q+
16:37:17 <pchampin> scribe+
16:37:21 <ora> ack TallTed
16:37:22 <Zakim> TallTed, you wanted to talk briefly about GH Discussions
16:37:36 <pchampin> VladimirAlexiev: RDF4J has ruled out the use of GH discussion, but we might want to  consider them?
16:37:38 <pchampin> scribe-
16:37:57 <VladimirAlexiev> VladimirAlexiev: how about github Discussions, which are kind of like Issues but may be better for well... discussions. https://docs.github.com/en/discussions. They have threading
16:38:03 <pchampin> q+
16:38:07 <afs> q-
16:38:31 <ktk> ack pchampin
16:38:42 <VladimirAlexiev> TallTed: I really dislike them, they are more like StackOverflow Q&A ("best" answer is pushed up), so not really a threaded discussion.
16:39:30 <VladimirAlexiev> pchampin: I also dislike Discussions. However, we've had in some WGs "perma-issues" (a special tag) for issues that are really prolonged discussions
16:40:22 <VladimirAlexiev> pchampin: we need a resolution on the PR process (how much leeway we give to editors), so that we can move forward
16:40:27 <TallTed> a draft PROPOSAL (either as an emote or noted as DRAFT PROPOSAL) would help toward that desired RESOLUTION
16:40:50 <pfps> q+
16:40:52 <gkellogg_> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/18
16:41:47 <ktk> ack pfps
16:42:28 <ora> q+
16:42:56 <VladimirAlexiev> gkellogg: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/18 is an example of a controversial issue, for which if we give editors more leeway, someone later may be unhappy about it.
16:43:07 <ktk> ack ora
16:43:20 <pfps> editors should feel free to do make changes that the working group has directed
16:43:38 <TallTed> s/editors should feel/pfps: editors should feel/
16:43:44 <VladimirAlexiev> ora: we need to find a balance
16:44:18 <ktk> q+
16:44:57 <ora> ack ktk
16:45:08 <VladimirAlexiev> pfps: editors should be able to request changes to PRs that they believe have been decided/directed by the group
16:45:36 <afs> q+
16:45:51 <gkellogg_> q+
16:46:00 <ora> ack afs
16:46:07 <pfps> the direction that I remember was to update documents to the current standard and something about fixing errata but the charter says editorial errata
16:46:26 <VladimirAlexiev> ktk: in some cases we need to take some very old documents and bring them up to date. Can you give examples of editor changes that would contravene the Charter?
16:46:35 <VladimirAlexiev> pfps: the Charter says we can fix Editorial errata, but no other kinds of errata
16:48:12 <ora> ack gkellogg_
16:48:14 <VladimirAlexiev> afs: one person's substative erratum may be another person's Editorial erratum. A recent example was an erratum in SPARQL that's been standing for ages, and every implementor have read the erratum, and fixed their implementation. We should feel free to fix this erratum
16:48:23 <ora> q+
16:48:36 <TallTed> +1 neutral language is important in `issue notes` and the like (and we're getting better at this)
16:48:46 <pfps> yes, it can be hard to decide on the boundary between editorial and other errata
16:49:02 <VladimirAlexiev> s/yes/pfps: yes/
16:50:35 <VladimirAlexiev> gkellogg: another similar example is an erratum in c14n. Another is in RDF JSON.
16:50:51 <ora> ack ora
16:51:03 <gkellogg_> s/RDF JSON/JSON results format/
16:51:19 <TallTed> q+
16:51:29 <VladimirAlexiev> gkellogg: a counter-example is Language Direction, which has major implications across the stack, and we can't just add it was part of this WG
16:52:27 <gkellogg_> q+
16:52:37 <ora> ack TallTed
16:52:44 <VladimirAlexiev> afs: because people will work in the WG at different days of the week (eg my Wednesdays are devoted to fixing Dependabot warnings), we'll need a cycle of a complete week
16:53:48 <afs> q+
16:54:09 <afs> q-
16:54:09 <ora> ack gkellogg_
16:54:11 <pchampin> q+
16:54:17 <VladimirAlexiev> TallTed: for trivial stuff like fixing a typo, we can use a very short cycle (fix it as part of the same PR), but for bigger changes (eg multi-line changes) we may need to wayt the whole weekly cycle. Let's use best effort and best judgement.
16:55:43 <VladimirAlexiev> pchampin: I feel we're getting to a sort of agreement. We have a bunch of PRs, some are lacking initial direction. Let's go through the PRs, and editors add tags controversial/noncontroversial (or editorial/substantive, or needsFormalApproval), so we can merge the simple ones
16:55:46 <afs> Simple step - try to react in a "few days" ... which can include "I will provide a response this week".
16:56:10 <gkellogg_> I can't say that any open PRs I'm responsible for are purely "editorial".
16:56:31 <TallTed> commenting "this will be merged YYYYMMDD, if no one raises concerns before then" is also a fine step to take
16:56:38 <gkellogg_> Some changes are normative, others informative.
16:57:04 <ora> Editors will tag PRs for next week's meeting, the controversial ones we can discuss, everything else can just be merged.
16:57:15 <VladimirAlexiev> ora: tag some PRs so we can play with the GH Project Board and see how we can manage the PRs
16:57:30 <ktk> regrets+ souri
16:57:53 <ktk> regrets+ enrico
16:57:55 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:57:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:58:16 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
17:00:38 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
17:05:18 <pchampin> previous meering: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:05:34 <pchampin> s|previous meering: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html||
17:05:41 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:06:25 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:06:30 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:07:00 <pchampin> s/agendum 1 -- Scribe: Alexiev, Vladimir -- taken up [from agendabot]//
17:07:06 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:07:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:09:19 <pchampin> s/they are examples/they are examples
17:09:19 <pchampin> Topic: Making progress with pending Pull Requests
17:09:43 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:09:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:09:58 <pchampin> s/Topic: Making progress with pending Pull Requests//
17:10:03 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:12:06 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:21:20 <pchampin> i/gkellogg: I wanted to discuss/Topic: moving forward with pending Pull Requests/
17:21:23 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:21:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:22:22 <pchampin> s/Topic: moving forward with/Topic: Moving forward with/
17:22:23 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:22:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:27:07 <pchampin> i/TallTed: let's setup these/PROPOSED: give Triage permission to all WG participants in all of our repos/
17:27:11 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:27:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:28:33 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:28:56 <pchampin> s/looks like a draft proposal, as an emote//
17:29:07 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:29:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:32:43 <pchampin> s/09-rdf/09-rdf/
17:32:45 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:32:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:52:20 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
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<pchampin> s/tag/label/g
<pchampin> present+ VladimirAlexiev