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19:00:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/13-aria-at-irc
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19:05:47 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
19:05:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:05:48 <michael_fairchild> present+
19:05:48 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:06:00 <jugglinmike> MEETING: ARIA-AT Community Group Automation Workstream
19:06:09 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
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19:10:30 <jugglinmike> Topic: Integrating with BTT
19:10:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a plan to incorporate the ARIA-AT proposal into the BTT's new charter
19:11:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: BTT's charter will be updated in August. Typically, these groups work on their charters for several weeks in advance. That's why we're starting talks now
19:11:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're getting our ducks in a row
19:12:34 <jugglinmike> michael_fairchild: Is there an appetite in that group for this?
19:12:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've received some signals
19:13:57 <jugglinmike> <jugglinmike>: The charter is set to expire on 2023-08-10
19:15:15 <jugglinmike> <jugglinmike>: Is the charter renewal the only time the group could adopt a new specification?
19:15:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's not clear. I suppose they could renew/refresh the charter later on, to include a new spec
19:16:26 <jugglinmike> Topic: An update on automating VoiceOver in macOS
19:16:41 <jugglinmike> present+ mzgoddard
19:16:47 <jugglinmike> present+ michael_fairchild
19:16:52 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:17:59 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: I haven't been able to get Apple's new API to function as documented
19:18:27 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: I've theorized that this may be because we have not yet attempted to build with a property certificate
19:19:01 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: I worked with jugglinmike to create such a certificate, but so far, applying that certificate to the build process has not been fruitful
19:19:42 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: Separately, I've been looking into the e-speak application as it is a real-world example of software which integrates with the new API
19:19:59 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: I've installed that software from the Apple App store and witnessed it working as expected
19:20:25 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: However, I have not been able to build the software from source in my development environment
19:21:27 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: So I'm still trying to learn which steps we need to adopt in our own work
19:26:33 <jugglinmike> <jugglinmike>: The support request I filed with Apple has not progressed at all.
19:27:04 <mzgoddard> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/avfaudio/audio_engine/audio_units/creating_a_custom_speech_synthesizer
19:28:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: How much energy should we put into getting the demo application to work? At what point does this become a blocker on our critical paths?
19:29:26 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: I think we can contact Apple, now
19:29:55 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: There are things I can keep trying, but I don't think they will deepen the conversation we can have with Apple
19:30:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My high-level feeling is that you're really reaching for solutions
19:31:54 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: That's a fair assessment. I think looking into e-speak still has potential (for instance, trying to work with it in a cleaner environment than my development environment), but it's a lot of murky/gray areas
19:32:12 <jugglinmike> mzgoddard: Maybe less like "grasping at straws" and more like "reading tea leaves"
19:32:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we should ask Apple so that you can spend your time more effectively
19:33:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Since we're shooting for automatic results generation in the second quarter
19:34:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Of course, we have Windows support, so we can move forward with just Windows
19:35:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think moving forward like that would be an acceptable risk, given that there are other aspects that we need to advance
19:35:43 <jugglinmike> Topic: Scope of automation
19:41:20 <jugglinmike> <jugglinmike>: Automation causes us to sub-divide the concept of "test results" into two parts: "AT output" and "interpretation of correctness"
19:42:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, that tracks with my thinking. We may need to adjust our language a bit--specifically when it comes to "running a test". Does that involve both "collecting output" and "interpreting output"?
19:47:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We also have to remember that output could be speech, but it could also be braille or any number of other things. It's generally, the "AT response"
19:47:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The analysis is "Does the AT response conform to the expected behavior?"
19:48:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe, "AT responses" and "assertion analysis results", and that while these could be generated by different "actors", they are part of the same "execution"
19:53:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: A human may second-guess an AT response and decide to collect the response manually
19:53:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we'll always have a human running every part of every test at least once
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20:03:00 <jugglinmike> <jugglinmike>: We're out of time. I will write up an issue that outlines the topics and issues we still need to discuss, and I'll create a "one-off" meeting to discuss further at this time next week
20:03:26 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:03:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been michael_fairchild, mzgoddard, Matt_King
20:03:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/13-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:03:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:03:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:03:40 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent: leave
20:03:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items