IRC log of aria-at on 2023-03-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 19:00:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
- 19:00:56 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/13-aria-at-irc
- 19:04:54 [Sam_Shaw]
- Sam_Shaw has joined #aria-at
- 19:05:12 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria-at
- 19:05:33 [mzgoddard]
- mzgoddard has joined #aria-at
- 19:05:36 [michael_fairchild]
- michael_fairchild has joined #aria-at
- 19:05:47 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, start the meeting
- 19:05:47 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 19:05:48 [michael_fairchild]
- present+
- 19:05:48 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
- 19:06:00 [jugglinmike]
- MEETING: ARIA-AT Community Group Automation Workstream
- 19:06:09 [jugglinmike]
- scribe+ jugglinmike
- 19:07:31 [Matt_King]
- Matt_King has joined #aria-at
- 19:10:30 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Integrating with BTT
- 19:10:54 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We have a plan to incorporate the ARIA-AT proposal into the BTT's new charter
- 19:11:52 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: BTT's charter will be updated in August. Typically, these groups work on their charters for several weeks in advance. That's why we're starting talks now
- 19:11:59 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We're getting our ducks in a row
- 19:12:34 [jugglinmike]
- michael_fairchild: Is there an appetite in that group for this?
- 19:12:44 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We've received some signals
- 19:13:57 [jugglinmike]
- <jugglinmike>: The charter is set to expire on 2023-08-10
- 19:15:15 [jugglinmike]
- <jugglinmike>: Is the charter renewal the only time the group could adopt a new specification?
- 19:15:55 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That's not clear. I suppose they could renew/refresh the charter later on, to include a new spec
- 19:16:26 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: An update on automating VoiceOver in macOS
- 19:16:41 [jugglinmike]
- present+ mzgoddard
- 19:16:47 [jugglinmike]
- present+ michael_fairchild
- 19:16:52 [jugglinmike]
- present+ Matt_King
- 19:17:59 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: I haven't been able to get Apple's new API to function as documented
- 19:18:27 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: I've theorized that this may be because we have not yet attempted to build with a property certificate
- 19:19:01 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: I worked with jugglinmike to create such a certificate, but so far, applying that certificate to the build process has not been fruitful
- 19:19:42 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: Separately, I've been looking into the e-speak application as it is a real-world example of software which integrates with the new API
- 19:19:59 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: I've installed that software from the Apple App store and witnessed it working as expected
- 19:20:25 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: However, I have not been able to build the software from source in my development environment
- 19:21:27 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: So I'm still trying to learn which steps we need to adopt in our own work
- 19:26:33 [jugglinmike]
- <jugglinmike>: The support request I filed with Apple has not progressed at all.
- 19:27:04 [mzgoddard]
- https://developer.apple.com/documentation/avfaudio/audio_engine/audio_units/creating_a_custom_speech_synthesizer
- 19:28:24 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: How much energy should we put into getting the demo application to work? At what point does this become a blocker on our critical paths?
- 19:29:26 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: I think we can contact Apple, now
- 19:29:55 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: There are things I can keep trying, but I don't think they will deepen the conversation we can have with Apple
- 19:30:30 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: My high-level feeling is that you're really reaching for solutions
- 19:31:54 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: That's a fair assessment. I think looking into e-speak still has potential (for instance, trying to work with it in a cleaner environment than my development environment), but it's a lot of murky/gray areas
- 19:32:12 [jugglinmike]
- mzgoddard: Maybe less like "grasping at straws" and more like "reading tea leaves"
- 19:32:50 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think we should ask Apple so that you can spend your time more effectively
- 19:33:56 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Since we're shooting for automatic results generation in the second quarter
- 19:34:28 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Of course, we have Windows support, so we can move forward with just Windows
- 19:35:07 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think moving forward like that would be an acceptable risk, given that there are other aspects that we need to advance
- 19:35:43 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Scope of automation
- 19:41:20 [jugglinmike]
- <jugglinmike>: Automation causes us to sub-divide the concept of "test results" into two parts: "AT output" and "interpretation of correctness"
- 19:42:41 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Yes, that tracks with my thinking. We may need to adjust our language a bit--specifically when it comes to "running a test". Does that involve both "collecting output" and "interpreting output"?
- 19:47:16 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We also have to remember that output could be speech, but it could also be braille or any number of other things. It's generally, the "AT response"
- 19:47:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The analysis is "Does the AT response conform to the expected behavior?"
- 19:48:37 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Maybe, "AT responses" and "assertion analysis results", and that while these could be generated by different "actors", they are part of the same "execution"
- 19:53:06 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: A human may second-guess an AT response and decide to collect the response manually
- 19:53:29 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think we'll always have a human running every part of every test at least once
- 19:54:02 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria-at
- 20:03:00 [jugglinmike]
- <jugglinmike>: We're out of time. I will write up an issue that outlines the topics and issues we still need to discuss, and I'll create a "one-off" meeting to discuss further at this time next week
- 20:03:26 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, end the meeting
- 20:03:26 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been michael_fairchild, mzgoddard, Matt_King
- 20:03:29 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 20:03:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/13-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
- 20:03:37 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 20:03:37 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria-at
- 20:03:40 [jugglinmike]
- RRSAgent: leave
- 20:03:40 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items