17:58:12 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:58:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-aria-irc 17:58:16 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:58:17 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 17:58:22 meeting: ARIA WG 17:58:43 agendabot, find agenda 17:58:43 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:58:44 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/665c08c6-871d-4f53-a758-d6259ca56ca1/20230309T130000 17:58:44 clear agenda 17:58:44 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/41Vy7gE 17:58:44 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3L300xg 17:58:46 agenda+ -> F2F planning https://bit.ly/3F8sNNd 17:58:49 agenda+ -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110 - w/ -> @annevk https://github.com/annevk 17:58:52 agenda+ -> Step 2C includes controls with value that are directly referenced by labelledby or describedby https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/183 17:58:56 agenda+ -> aria-hidden error case: disallow aria-hidden on root or document element (e.g. or ) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1254 17:59:59 jongund has joined #aria 18:00:55 CurtBellew has joined #aria 18:01:23 BenBeaudry has joined #aria 18:02:39 Adam_Page has joined #aria 18:02:59 jaunita_george has joined #aria 18:03:08 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 18:03:10 present+ 18:03:15 present+ 18:03:25 aaronlev has joined #aria 18:03:26 scribe: Adam_Page 18:03:26 zakim, next item 18:03:26 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/41Vy7gE -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:03:39 present+ 18:03:45 present+ 18:03:52 present+ Daniel 18:04:06 jamesn: #1883 - no need to talk about 18:04:13 ... #1882, ditto 18:04:15 ... #1881 18:04:22 annevk has joined #aria 18:04:47 Could someone share the meeting passcode with me? 18:04:58 scottohara: let’s lump this in with live region topic 18:05:04 jamesn: we’ll do it at F2F 18:05:32 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/665c08c6-871d-4f53-a758-d6259ca56ca1/20230309T130000 18:06:32 melsumner has joined #aria 18:06:38 present+ 18:07:00 Works, but audio issues. Will retry. 18:07:01 jamesn: #1879 — this is a F2F topic 18:07:03 agenda? 18:07:11 zakim, close this item 18:07:11 agendum 1 closed 18:07:12 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:07:12 2. -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3L300xg [from agendabot] 18:07:18 zakim, take up item 4 18:07:18 agendum 4 -- -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110 - w/ -> @annevk 18:07:21 ... https://github.com/annevk -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:08:01 jamesn: annevk, can you take us through this issue? 18:09:00 annevk: currently the HTML spec has an assert that the attributes need to be enumerated, but the ARIA spec does not define them as enumerated 18:09:00 q+ 18:09:39 ... normally, IDL attributes reflect what the attribute should actually be, like boolean and number types 18:10:05 ... we need to fix the type issue. DOMString? doesn’t work 18:10:17 ... a lot of the ARIA attributes could be turned into HTML-style enumerated attributes 18:10:30 ... many do allow N string values, etc. 18:11:13 ... the way enumerated attributes work when you restrict them to known values is that if you use getter with an unknown value, it will return the last previously known value 18:12:10 ... currently, it’s hard to feature-test new values for these attributes 18:12:10 https://gist.github.com/annevk/2ffb664fd4c9b5070556866ae9a5a416 18:12:23 ... my proposal is to go through all the attributes, especially the string-based ones, and try to figure out how they could be defined in terms of HTML’s types 18:12:40 ... a lot of it is kind of an editorial change 18:13:14 scotto has joined #aria 18:13:19 ack me 18:13:20 present+ 18:13:39 present+ 18:13:39 jamesn: the enumerated attributes and unknown values — it could be a problem to do that 18:13:44 q+ 18:13:58 ... it’s already defined what should happen when unknown values are encountered, and it’s not the same as you described 18:14:16 annevk: presumably it maps to a _a_ state of some kind? 18:14:27 jamesn: I think it’s meant to be the “unknown” value, but with booleans it’s different 18:14:42 ... for others, it’s “not present” 18:14:52 ... but it’s never the “previously known” value 18:15:23 annevk: IDL has a “missing” default value and an “invalid” default value 18:15:48 present+ 18:15:54 ack jcraig 18:16:32 jcraig: for background, if you have markup `aria-label="foo"`, in this context we’d call that a “content attribute” 18:16:59 ... we have a fairly arbitrary distinction of states vs properties 18:17:16 ... from an editorial perspective, we’ve begun trying to refer to these more generally as attributes 18:17:59 Matt_King has joined #aria 18:18:04 present+ 18:18:17 q? 18:18:21 ... the benefits of annevk’s proposal is that making these changes, especially now that we have web platform tests, will allow better testability between engines, feature testing 18:18:40 ... the potential con is that there is some risk of interoperability problems 18:18:52 ... e.g., Salesforce has a polyfill that ties into these DOM properties 18:19:09 ... this would change some of the behavior that could break their internal framework 18:19:26 q+ 18:19:50 ... we do need to work out the problem of different default values for different types 18:19:58 ack Matt_King 18:20:41 Matt_King: are there ways of making this change without breaking Salesforce, by allowing user agent to respond in _either_ way? 18:21:22 jcraig: we kind of have precedent for that with class name and class list 18:21:52 ... in IDL class name has simple string reflection 18:22:06 ... then we said we’d like an easier accessor, so we made class list 18:22:27 q+ 18:22:35 ... so we could always add _new_ properties for cases like this, but it can be messy 18:23:11 annevk: it would increase the complexity a lot 18:23:19 Matt_King: does it give us a path toward graceful degradation? 18:23:59 jongund has joined #aria 18:24:52 jcraig: if we were to go this route, both props would probably exist in perpetuity 18:25:19 ack me 18:26:15 jamesn: at the moment, what we have is at least consistent within ARIA attributes. Is there a risk that in trying to become more consistent with the rest of the web, we become internally inconsistent? 18:26:54 q? 18:28:48 jcraig: the question to the group is: are there any objections to this proposal? If not, then annevk can finish up the PR 18:28:54 ... and we’d have some more review going forward 18:29:17 jamesn: wasn’t one of the initial objections was the problem of default value? And that engines themselves didn’t want to put new logic in for that? 18:29:43 annevk: I recall that coming up for computed values, but that’s not necessarily what’s at hand here with just defaults 18:30:52 jamesn: we need to run this by Alice 18:33:28 jamesn: if we were to go forward, should we just take the pain of breaking things? 18:33:45 jcraig: annevk reminded us that Gecko does not implement this yet 18:34:33 present+ 18:34:47 jamesn: people should know where polyfills exist and dig into the apps that have them 18:35:19 jamesn: what’s the action going forward? 18:35:40 ... it sounds like we have an affirmative consensus, is that true? Any objections to annevk doing more work on this? 18:35:47 +1 for compatibility with wider web 18:36:31 jcraig: let’s loop in aaronlev and Benjamin to make sure other implementors are on board 18:36:53 jamesn: sounds like there’s a way forward, and we can review the proposal again when it‘s further along 18:37:46 annevk: the gist (https://gist.github.com/annevk/2ffb664fd4c9b5070556866ae9a5a416) was just a strawman, the next step will be writing a PR 18:37:54 https://w3c.github.io/aria/#document-handling_author-errors_states-properties 18:38:11 jamesn: check out “Author error states and properties” in the spec 18:39:25 annevk: for the `role` attribute, we can’t remove values that are not supported, we’d end up reflecting string as-is 18:39:48 jamesn: yes, `role` clearly has to be a string 18:40:33 jcraig: thanks for all the work, annevk 18:40:54 jamesn: please work with me or pkra as you work on the PR, if you need help with any of the language 18:41:09 annevk: I’ll either create a draft PR or an issue with questions 18:41:29 zakim, close this item 18:41:29 agendum 4 closed 18:41:30 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:41:30 2. -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3L300xg [from agendabot] 18:44:33 q+ 18:44:47 ack BenBeaudry 18:45:01 zakim, take up item 2 18:45:01 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3L300xg -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:45:04 ack me 18:45:23 jamesn: #463 18:45:32 ... scotto, is this ready for review? 18:46:07 scotto: yes, this needs review. Picking up threads from a long time ago about mappings that weren’t reflected accurately 18:46:35 ... with us deciding not to map contenteditable to role="group" in the minimum role discussion 18:47:18 ... this change should largely just reflect reality; nothing normative 18:47:24 jamesn: #1880 18:47:34 scotto: this is agenda’d already 18:47:42 jamesn: let’s add some more reviewers 18:48:03 scotto: this definitely needs some wording updates 18:48:11 zakim, next item 18:48:11 agendum 3 -- -> F2F planning https://bit.ly/3F8sNNd -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:48:26 jamesn: thank you to people who’ve added F2F items 18:48:47 ... please keep adding so we can put our agenda together 18:49:04 jcraig: it’s possible that the one I added might need 2 sections 18:49:16 ... good for me to give an overview of what’s changed in WPT 18:49:27 ... and then earlier/later in the weeks, we could have an overlap session 18:50:15 jongund has joined #aria 18:50:32 zakim, next item 18:50:32 agendum 5 -- -> Step 2C includes controls with value that are directly referenced by labelledby or describedby https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/183 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:51:14 jamesn: #186 is merged, so this one is unblocked 18:51:51 spectranaut_: this doesn’t have the PR checklist 18:51:59 ... we should copy that in to prepare for merge 18:52:02 agenda? 18:52:07 zakim, next item 18:52:07 agendum 6 -- -> aria-hidden error case: disallow aria-hidden on root or document element (e.g. or ) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1254 -- taken up [from 18:52:10 ... agendabot] 18:53:16 scotto: axe-core, for instance, already has an author check for no aria-hidden on body 18:53:38 jongund has joined #aria 18:54:27 ... next step for the PR is to make sure all the language makes sense 18:54:44 jcraig: since we have some implementers here, we can finalize some of the terms 18:55:05 ... do we want this to apply to nested root elements? 18:55:15 ... e.g., inside an iframe in side an ad banner 18:55:34 ... there are some cases where it could break, but some cases where it could be used helpfully? 18:56:00 q? 18:57:14 jamesn: is there a plan to allow aria-hidden on versus the root document? 18:57:29 scotto: I didn’t consider the iframe scenario 18:59:07 ... if someone wants the content of the iframe to be aria-hidden, it should be on the iframe, not on its inner elements 19:00:32 jcraig: we should leave the “Author MUST NOT” for now, but can change if someone reveals a compelling use case. The more important one is “User agents SHOULD” 19:01:40 zakim, end meeting 19:01:40 As of this point the attendees have been MarkMcCarthy, spectranaut_, Adam_Page, BenBeaudry, Daniel, melsumner, scotto, jcraig, jamesn, Matt_King, CurtBellew 19:01:43 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:01:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-aria-minutes.html Zakim 19:01:51 I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:01:51 Zakim has left #aria 19:04:01 jongund has joined #aria 19:05:41 jongund has joined #aria 19:08:54 jongund has joined #aria 19:18:15 jongund has joined #aria 19:45:58 jongund has joined #aria 19:47:35 jongund has joined #aria 20:02:51 howard-e has joined #aria 20:05:16 howard-e has joined #aria 20:59:29 jongund has joined #aria 22:22:21 jongund has joined #aria