14:57:49 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 14:57:53 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-irc 14:57:54 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF 14:58:41 sorry, I will join a bit later, have a conflict in the first hour 15:02:55 dape has joined #wot-td 15:03:03 sebastian has joined #wot-td 15:04:29 cris_ has joined #wot-td 15:06:20 15:06:22 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#March_1.2C_2023 15:06:30 topic: Minutes 15:08:21 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-td-minutes.html 15:09:59 scribenick: sebastian 15:10:08 EK: we need to change the names. E.g., chris -> CA 15:10:31 EK: any objections? 15:10:40 minutes are approved 15:11:17 topic: Charter Related Topics 15:11:36 subtopic: Binding Templates Naming 15:11:50 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/14 15:12:26 s/2C_2023/2C_2023 Agenda for today/ 15:12:37 i/EK shows/topic: Agenda/ 15:13:21 15:13:37 also see https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#protocol-bindings 15:13:46 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ben_Francis, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:14:57 BF: having diferent documents such as HTTP protocol binding and HTTP profile is confusing 15:15:05 q? 15:15:07 s/diferent/different 15:15:25 s|issues/14|issues/14 wot-charter-drafts issue 14 - Confusing use of the term "protocol binding"| 15:15:38 q+ 15:15:59 q+ 15:16:23 s/Binding Protocols/Protocol Binding/ 15:16:32 s/of the Ar/from the Ar/ 15:16:55 ... the proposed terminology in the charter is different than what the definition of those terms currently are 15:17:20 q+ 15:17:52 EK: I think there is no problem with the general concept, its more about the naming 15:19:03 ack k 15:19:11 kaz: @@@ 15:19:18 Kaz: I think, Ben's question is alligned with my question about the binding template and architecture in general. 15:19:23 s/@@@// 15:19:39 s/aligned with/inline with/ 15:19:58 q+ 15:20:45 s/in general./in general. We need to clarify the structure of the whole WoT specifications as a family, and what kind of descriptions and definitions should be included in which specifications in what level of description./ 15:20:46 CA: this discussion already takes very long already. 15:20:58 ack c 15:21:00 ack b 15:21:08 rrsagent, make log public 15:21:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:21:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:21:23 q+ 15:21:25 q+ 15:21:26 q+ 15:21:45 chair: Ege/Sebastian 15:21:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:21:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:22:05 s|sorry, I will join a bit later, have a conflict in the first hour|| 15:22:32 s/kaz: // 15:22:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:22:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:22:56 s/alligned with/inline with/ 15:22:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:22:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:23:14 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 15:23:17 q+ 15:23:20 ack seb 15:23:22 mjk has joined #wot-td 15:23:30 q? 15:23:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:23:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb 15:23:53 sk: (describes his proposal on TD/TM and WoT Binding Templates 2.0 he showed two weeks ago) 15:24:52 q? 15:24:54 q+ 15:24:57 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/files/10745556/WoT_Binding_2.0.pdf Sebastians slides 15:25:51 q+ 15:26:04 sk: would make sense to use the names in this diagram 15:26:33 ack e 15:26:37 ek: maybe that should be discussed later? 15:26:39 ack c 15:26:54 q+ 15:28:54 ack e 15:29:11 q+ 15:30:34 Kaz: we need clearification about the relation of binding templates and protocol binding in the architecture document 15:31:10 ... the presented overview of Sebastian is different of Ben's points 15:31:54 ack k 15:32:05 .... we should think about which information is needed and in which document this has provided this 15:32:06 s/clearification/clarification/ 15:32:50 DP: in the overview there are 2 REC documents, TD 2.0 and Binding Template 2.0 15:33:49 ... I would propose to have the binding definition only in the TD 2.0 document, we can skip Binding Template REC 15:34:08 ... this would simplify everything, we would have only one document 15:34:22 ack dape 15:34:43 s|the relation of binding templates and protocol binding in the architecture document|what we want to describe for "Protocol Binding" and "Binding Templates" so that developers can generate concrete Thing Descriptions including forms element with protocol binding for their IoT systems./ 15:34:59 s|./|.| 15:35:08 15:35:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:35:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:35:39 i/describes his pro/scribenick: kaz/ 15:35:55 i/we need cla/scribenick: sebastian/ 15:35:55 BF: I support the idea to remove the term "template" in the specific protocol binding document 15:35:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:35:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:37:40 s/we should think about which information is needed and in which document this has provided this/The question here is not (only) the name of the specifications but the fact that there are descriptions on "Protocol Bindings" and "Binding Templates" within various specifications./ 15:38:15 q? 15:38:21 ack b 15:38:24 q+ 15:38:33 BF: why is the WoT Profile Basic Binding also in this picture? 15:38:59 s/various specifications/various specifications like WoT Architecture, WoT Profile, WoT Thing Description, WoT Binding Templates and protocol-specific binding template subdocuments./ 15:39:22 SK: profile uses a combination of a specific protocol and an expectation of the payload. This is what ecosystems typically do 15:39:57 s/subdocuments./subdocuments. We need to clarify which spec should describe what in which level using what kind of description./ 15:40:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:40:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:40:32 q+ 15:41:03 i/shows the place/(Kaz notes that is what he also suggested last week :) 15:41:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:41:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:42:15 q? 15:42:15 ack mjk 15:42:15 mjk: @@@ 15:42:15 MK: agree what Sebastian, this would enable the option to reuse protocol vocabularies 15:42:46 ... its like configuration file 15:42:46 ack luca 15:43:07 q+ 15:43:53 q+ 15:45:16 LB: we need to be carefule when we combose different binding approaches such as profile and protocol binding. What happen when not everything is implemented? 15:45:30 s/carefule/careful/ 15:45:39 s/combose/compose/ 15:46:12 CA: profile is only a platform binding 15:47:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:47:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb 15:47:33 q+ 15:48:06 qq+ 15:48:06 mk: I don't like the idea of using defaults 15:48:30 q+ 15:48:52 ack c 15:48:55 ack c 15:48:55 cris_, you wanted to react to luca_barbato 15:48:57 ack m 15:48:59 ack c 15:49:24 BF: the names apply a lot, we need to decide 15:50:44 ... to response Luca: you can override default and it is assumed that consumer will always implement the default assumptions 15:51:34 s/to response/to respond to/ 15:51:39 q+ 15:51:40 q+ 15:51:44 ack b 15:52:27 Kaz: I'm agree with MK and stopping discussion today 15:53:13 ... we should split Ben's issue into charter topic and detail TD topic 15:53:28 q- 15:53:32 ack s 15:53:36 s/I'm agree/I can agree/ 15:53:43 ack s 15:53:52 ack sebastian 15:53:52 s/and sto/and OK with sto/ 15:53:52 ack k 15:53:59 q+ 15:54:37 s/into ch/into two pieces, (1) Ch/ 15:54:51 CA: why do we not simply refer to a document with a specific protocol name 15:55:08 ack c 15:55:10 s/detail TD topic/(2) detail discussion on TD and Binding./ 15:55:14 ack c 15:56:31 s/why do we not/why don't we/ 15:57:07 q+ 15:57:17 ack s 15:57:21 q+ 15:57:24 q+ 15:58:03 sk: (referring to the discussion last week on including the Binding Templates content into the TD spec) 15:58:20 q+ 15:58:24 ... OK with the idea, but still want to have protocol-specific documents 15:58:28 ack b 15:58:33 SK: support the idea to integrate Binding Mechanism only in the TD 2.0 sepc, a seperate Binding Template REC document is needed anymore 15:59:23 q? 15:59:39 BF: I do not mind, if this will go in one document. However, the Profile mechanism should then also go in the TD spec 16:00:25 EK: we checked the number of pages the TD spec, its around 138 pages 16:00:42 ... we compared this with JSON-LD 1.1 it has over 200+ 16:01:03 ... I think it is not a big deal to have everything in one document 16:01:38 q+ just one to mention that merging different docs implies also organizational issues (are we also merging the different repository in one?) 16:03:14 ... would simplify that everything in sync 16:03:23 Kaz: @@@ 16:03:34 q? 16:03:38 ack e 16:03:40 ... support the direction to have everything only in one document 16:03:40 ack k 16:03:42 q+ 16:04:00 +1 to the general idea of having fewer normative specifications to keep in sync with each other 16:04:03 i|Kaz:|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/33 related wot-charter-drafts issue 33 - TD and TM restructuring| 16:04:18 MK: +1 for single deliverable 16:04:50 ack mjk 16:05:10 s/@@@/2 comments. First, we should have had the wot-charter-drafts issue 33 as part of the wot-thing-description repository instead of the wot-charter-drafts repo. We don't need to move it now, but please be careful about which issue to be discussed on which repo./ 16:05:28 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:05:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb 16:06:14 q+ 16:06:24 CA: I think we have a concesous here. 16:06:26 +1 cris idea to manage multiple content sources 16:06:28 s/support the direction to have everything only in one document/Second, regarding the discussion on the structure of TD and Binding, I myself suggested we merge the Binding Templates spec into the TD spec. So I'd support that direction if it's still a possible option./ 16:06:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:06:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:07:06 i/referring/scribenick: kaz/ 16:07:17 i/support the idea/scribenick: sebastian/ 16:07:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:07:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:07:56 s/concesous/consensus 16:08:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:08:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:08:54 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/62 related wot-charter-drafts issue 62 - Moving the core binding document into the TD 16:09:04 (sorry I'm late, conflict...) 16:09:07 16:10:07 BF: Will be the registry stay in the TD spec? 16:10:11 EK: yes 16:10:27 present+ Michael_McCool 16:11:55 q+ 16:12:08 ack e 16:12:11 MM: i think the registry section can be kept short 16:12:20 s/Will be the/Will the/ 16:13:07 ... can only the registry table be updated when a new REC is published? 16:13:29 ack c 16:14:00 EK: no, new protococols can be integrated without publishing new REC 16:14:24 ... registry table is informative 16:15:05 Kaz: the registry management should be described by a seperate note 16:15:39 q? 16:15:44 ack k 16:15:58 q+ 16:16:39 EK: we are flexible in defining the registry. We can reject when duplicated prefix is used 16:17:35 Kaz: we should not define so much details in the charter 16:17:45 s/so much/too much/ 16:18:07 ack k 16:18:35 16:18:52 s/in the charter/in the Charter. I thought the DID WG had similar question, so we can look at their work (and ask them for help)./ 16:19:15 subtopic: Propose different naming for reusable connections 16:19:15 q? 16:19:36 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/73 16:19:48 q+ 16:20:05 s/73/73 wot-charter-drafts PR 73 - Propose different naming for reusable connections| 16:20:12 s/|// 16:20:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:20:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:20:24 q+ 16:22:47 MK: we need to be careful of the name. e.g., base is not only a URI it also encapsulate the protocol scheme 16:23:08 q? 16:23:14 EK: what would be a better name? 16:23:23 q+ 16:23:50 q+ 16:23:54 "re-usable endpoint"? 16:24:43 MK: e.g reusable connection for persistent endpoints 16:25:06 CA: I would prefer to have it more abstract 16:25:41 q? 16:25:48 ack mjk 16:26:46 "connection context"? 16:26:59 ... WS are keep open the connection to subsequent send messages and the consumer need to keep the state. 16:27:02 ack cr 16:27:36 ack b 16:28:13 q? 16:28:22 q+ 16:28:56 BF: stateful interactions forasync actions go in the same direction 16:29:55 ack k 16:30:11 Kaz: I agree to cover use case about dynamic resources and reusable connections 16:31:20 s/I agree to cover use case about dynamic resources and reusable connections/I'd agree all the possible use cases here in the comment of PR 73./ 16:31:36 ... but not needed in detail of the charter 16:31:48 s/PR 73./PR 73. However, I'd simply agree with McCool's comment a bit above./ 16:33:02 s/but not needed in detail of the charter/I myself a OK with the current list of examples but we can add something from the possible use cases. In any case, we can't list all the possible use cases here./ 16:33:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:33:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:33:17 ack mjk 16:34:20 EK: what do you think removing the term? 16:34:48 s/agree all/agree to all/ 16:34:55 BF: I would prefer to keep it but is not a big deal to remove it 16:35:33 CA: if it helpful for everyone then it is ok 16:35:53 s/it help/it's help/ 16:36:26 subtopic: Versioning 16:36:35 -> Looking at CSS versioning mechanism 16:36:50 https://www.w3.org/Style/2011/CSS-process.en.html 16:36:51 -> https://www.w3.org/Style/2011/CSS-process.en.html 16:37:01 s/->/ 16:37:03 -> https://www.w3.org/Style/2011/CSS-process.en.html 16:37:29 EK: please have a look on this 16:37:29 s/html/html THE CSS STANDARDIZATION PROCESS/ 16:37:55 ... I think it is better to simple call everything "2.0" 16:38:10 q+ 16:38:29 subtopic: TF Lead in the Future 16:38:43 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/issues/71 16:40:06 EK: if someone is interested please let us know 16:40:13 I'm afraid I need to drop off now, thank you for discussing the issue I raised. 16:40:36 ok, thanks for joining 16:41:13 i/topic: Binding Templates/ 16:41:15 https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1077 16:41:20 subtopic: Netlify issue 16:41:25 subtopic: Schedule 16:41:50 s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1077|| 16:41:56 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1077 wot PR 1077 16:42:19 s/PR 1077/PR 1077 - Add 2 weeks review period for binding templates/ 16:43:02 subtopic: PR - Interaction Patterns 16:43:06 https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/251 16:43:21 i/Schedule/kaz: Jose from the Systeam handled the problem with Netlify configuration within the wot-marketing repo. Please see also his message about the problem./ 16:43:21 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/251 16:43:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:43:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:44:12 EK: any objections? 16:44:15 no 16:44:22 PR merged 16:44:38 i/251/251 PR 251 - Temporary Section Reorg - Part 5: Interaction Patterns/ 16:44:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:44:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:44:51 subtopic: PR - Generate CoAP vocabulary from RDF 16:45:03 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/246 16:45:07 i/Netlify issue/topic: Binding Templates/ 16:45:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:45:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:45:17 i/Jose/scribenick: kaz/ 16:45:29 EK: Klaus Hartke started to review this week 16:46:24 q? 16:46:28 q+ 16:46:29 ack k 16:47:25 i/PR - Interaction Patterns/ek: publication schedule updated/ 16:47:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:47:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:47:49 q+ 16:47:56 q+ 16:48:01 i/templates#251/scribenick: sebastian/ 16:48:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:48:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:48:10 JR: one topic was if the ontology is integrated int CoAP Binding document as well 16:48:31 i/any objections/scribenick: sebastian/ 16:48:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:48:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:48:59 MK: is it only about vocabulary 16:49:12 ... ? 16:49:23 EK: try to follow how HTTP does 16:49:34 ... with the RDF definition 16:49:52 q? 16:49:54 ackmjk 16:49:56 ack mjk 16:49:57 ack m 16:50:19 CA: the goal was also to describe older protocols 16:50:49 ... we tried as much as possible with the modbus protocol 16:50:59 q+ 16:51:03 q+ 16:51:11 q+ 16:51:19 ack cris 16:51:24 qq+ 16:52:10 MM: we need definitly ttl files for validation 16:52:38 ... I vote for modularity 16:52:46 q+ 16:52:53 ack mc 16:52:58 ack mccool 16:52:58 McCool, you wanted to react to cris_ 16:53:31 q+ 16:53:40 EK: do we need a separate top level ontology directory? 16:54:18 ack c 16:54:38 zakim, close queue 16:54:38 ok, kaz, the speaker queue is closed 16:55:57 JR: @@@ 16:56:19 Jan please can provide your point 16:56:31 s/can/can you 16:57:12 ack j 16:57:14 ack s 17:01:35 sk: +1 MM to keep modularity 17:02:09 ... feedback to Jan: maybe we can put ontology details in the annex? 17:02:31 s/annex/appendix/ 17:02:50 MK: agree with MM and SK 17:04:03 Kaz: if already defintions exists we should reuse it 17:04:22 ack mjk 17:04:26 ack k 17:04:47 ... do we want all the html files under the W3C namespace? 17:05:05 EK: yes, this is the assumptptions 17:05:29 s/if already defintions exists we should reuse it/one comment and one question. First, we should work with the SDO who defined the protocol for the vocabulary definition (if they still exist)./ 17:05:33 s/assumptptions/assumptions 17:06:23 s/do we want all the html files under the W3C namespace?/Second, I thought we wanted to host all the resources, HTML and TTL files, under the W3C Namespace. Is that still the case?/ 17:06:34 s/this is the/that is the/ 17:06:46 s/assumptions/assumption./ 17:07:21 kaz: In that case, we should look into the other ontology work within W3C as well./ 17:07:24 [adjourned] 17:07:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:07:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 17:28:06 kaz has joined #wot-td 17:42:08 kaz has joined #wot-td 17:44:47 kaz has joined #wot-td 18:14:00 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 19:31:56 Zakim has left #wot-td