IRC log of wot-profile on 2023-03-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:02:52 [RRSAgent]
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12:02:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-irc
12:02:58 [kaz]
meeting: WoT Profile
12:03:06 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Lagally
12:05:58 [Mizushima]
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12:06:32 [McCool]
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12:06:39 [mlagally_]
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12:07:27 [kaz]
present+ Ege_Korkan, Michael_McCool, Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:08:48 [McCool]
topic: Housekeeping
12:09:04 [ryuichi]
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12:09:06 [McCool]
ml: proposed agenda, note future agendas for looking at wide review feedback
12:09:22 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Profile_WebConf#Profile_-_March_1st.2C_2023
12:09:25 [McCool]
ml: minutes from Feb 22, 2023
12:09:32 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html Feb-22
12:10:28 [McCool]
... any objections to approving the call notes?
12:10:33 [McCool]
... hearing none, approved
12:10:44 [McCool]
topic: wide reviews
12:10:54 [McCool]
ml: to recap, started wide review
12:11:35 [McCool]
... however, the schedule may need to be updated
12:11:51 [McCool]
mm: note that asked for wide review to create issues in our repo
12:12:57 [McCool]
ml: ok, looks like they have noticed our request, let's see if there are any issues
12:13:04 [kaz]
i|to recap|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/358 wot-profile issue 358 - Wide review|
12:13:05 [McCool]
... and also any other new issues
12:13:10 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:13:13 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:13:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:13:28 [McCool]
ml: seems to be no wide review issues yet
12:13:39 [Ege]
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12:16:15 [McCool]
ml: some followup conversation on cloud message format
12:16:40 [Ege]
q+
12:16:54 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:16:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:17:06 [kaz]
chair: Lagally
12:17:34 [kaz]
i/some foll/topic: PR 330/
12:17:53 [McCool]
.. regarding cloud events, I think we need to make a clear policy decision
12:18:07 [McCool]
ege: suggest however we skip this for now since it's informative
12:18:19 [kaz]
i|some fol|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/330 wot-profile PR 330 - Cloud Events Message Format|
12:18:38 [kaz]
q+
12:18:40 [kaz]
ack e
12:18:48 [McCool]
... in particular security and async actions
12:19:09 [McCool]
q?
12:19:12 [Ege]
q+
12:19:52 [kaz]
ack k
12:19:55 [McCool]
kaz: regarding PR #330, not sure we can discuss without ben
12:20:07 [McCool]
q+
12:21:22 [kaz]
s/without ben/without Ben. If we need his participation for this PR, we should invite him to one of the Profile calls rather than we discuss this without him today./
12:21:35 [McCool]
ege: regarding policy, in current spec (maybe old text), said reduce impl burden...
12:21:41 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:21:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:22:00 [McCool]
mm: still, suggest we prioritize normative topics today; since security is WIP, that leaves async actions
12:22:22 [kaz]
topic: PR 271
12:22:23 [McCool]
topic: Pr 271
12:22:23 [mlagally_]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271
12:22:34 [kaz]
s/topic: Pr 271//
12:22:51 [McCool]
ml: this is in the normative section, implementation of a conversation we had about identifiers
12:23:10 [kaz]
s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271|-">https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271 wot-profile PR 271 - Common constraints - identifiers|
12:24:03 [kaz]
-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-profile/271/885bfe1...2178fa8.html#sec-identifiers diff
12:24:13 [kaz]
s/diff/diff - 8. Identifiers/
12:24:17 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:24:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:24:59 [Ege]
q+
12:26:14 [Ege]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/349
12:26:26 [McCool]
mm: issue is we can't have contradictory assertions about requiring immutable identifiers in one place and not allowing them in another
12:26:44 [McCool]
ege: also, in some cases we are repeating assertions already in the TD spec
12:27:14 [kaz]
[[
12:27:15 [kaz]
Ideally, any required immutable identifiers SHOULD only be made available via affordances, such as a property, whose value can only be obtained after appropriate authentication and authorization, and managed separately from the TD identifier.
12:27:16 [kaz]
]]
12:27:34 [McCool]
mm: agree with ege; we can have an informative statement referencing another assertion in another spec, but repeating it should be avoided
12:28:02 [McCool]
ege: in the end profiles define TDs which need to follow the TD spec
12:28:13 [kaz]
q+
12:28:18 [kaz]
ack e
12:28:22 [McCool]
ml: still, TD may have assertions that are not applicable
12:28:43 [McCool]
... if there are anything contradictory, please point them out, we don't want that
12:29:30 [McCool]
ege: if there are some assertions that are not applicable, if there is a subset, may need a mechanism for this
12:29:52 [McCool]
... but if it's simply that we don't use some features, don't really have to say anything
12:29:55 [McCool]
q+
12:31:21 [McCool]
mm: we need to be clear by what we mean by "not using a feature" - it can be not mentioning something, and there can be forbidding use of a feature
12:32:00 [McCool]
ege: question is whether the profile doc can override an assertion in the TD spec
12:32:02 [McCool]
q+
12:32:08 [McCool]
q?
12:32:16 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/349 related issue 349 - Are all TD 1.1 assertions valid in all profiles?
12:33:08 [McCool]
ml: please create if PR
12:34:16 [McCool]
mm: subset may be confusing; meant in mathematical sense, but...
12:34:31 [McCool]
... still, suggest we look at actions
12:34:55 [McCool]
kaz: question is which level of text should be included in profile, normative or not, etc.
12:35:28 [McCool]
... for example, some things could just be guidelines, and then reference other specs for normative content
12:35:40 [McCool]
... more important things can be normative
12:37:03 [McCool]
... still seems to be some overlap and confusion that need to decide how to resolve
12:37:23 [McCool]
... e.g. maybe some TD text should be moved to this spec
12:37:36 [McCool]
q?
12:37:38 [McCool]
ack m
12:37:41 [McCool]
ack k
12:38:02 [McCool]
ml: let's look at P1 issues, esp async actions
12:39:15 [McCool]
q+
12:40:53 [McCool]
ack m
12:40:58 [McCool]
topic: Actions
12:41:08 [McCool]
ml: specific issues?
12:41:28 [McCool]
ege: remember discussion, not sure there are specific issue, but problem is testing
12:41:34 [kaz]
s/create if PR/create a PR/
12:41:42 [McCool]
... some discussion about removing it; how needed is it?
12:41:58 [luca_barbato]
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12:42:12 [McCool]
... also, it tends to result in large TDs or those that don't follow TD spec
12:42:23 [McCool]
ml: if does not follow, please create issues
12:42:51 [kaz]
i|specific issues|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AP1 Priority 1 issues|
12:42:51 [McCool]
ege: some TDs submitted for testing were very large
12:42:56 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:42:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:43:05 [McCool]
ml: what is the problem with that?
12:43:24 [McCool]
ege: feel the schema definitions are not being using in the intended way; additional responses being used to model interactions
12:43:41 [McCool]
ml: what is "enough" implementations?
12:43:51 [luca_barbato]
q+
12:43:55 [McCool]
ege: at least one more on thing side and two more on consumer side
12:44:00 [Ege]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/data/input_2022/Profile/TD/Oracle/TDs/BluePump%20WebThing.td.jsonld
12:44:10 [McCool]
ml: want draft first, then implementations
12:44:21 [McCool]
ege: also a question about how needed it is
12:44:39 [McCool]
... e.g. discussion of removing device flow for OAuth, that's ok
12:44:53 [McCool]
ml: in many use cases async actions are widely used
12:45:15 [kaz]
present+ Luca_Barbato
12:45:19 [McCool]
... if TD does not allow us to model payload formats, it becomes a problem
12:45:59 [McCool]
... seems to be overkill to go a binding template for one or two payload formats
12:46:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:46:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:46:17 [kaz]
q+
12:46:22 [McCool]
... feel that profile is redefining a payload format and behavior
12:46:28 [McCool]
q+
12:47:12 [McCool]
luca: we tried to implement async actions, do think that actions in general should be treated asynchronously
12:47:32 [McCool]
... we are missing some features, for example a way to observe actions, part of the problem
12:47:46 [McCool]
... at least, when we try to implement that part, saw there was a problem
12:47:57 [Ege]
also relevant comment about this: https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/55#discussion_r1114152244
12:48:25 [McCool]
... but in general, actions *are* asynchronous, if we assume they are synchronous it leads to a lot of problems
12:48:43 [McCool]
... another issue is multiple invocations of an actions
12:49:14 [McCool]
... lots of clarification is needed, but in general I don't feel we can get away with not doing then
12:49:43 [Ege]
q+
12:49:54 [kaz]
ack lu
12:50:21 [McCool]
mm: to clarify, you thing async actions are important, and are working on an implementation?
12:50:35 [kaz]
s/you thing/you think/
12:50:37 [McCool]
luca: correct, but also see some problems in the current spec, e.g. event mechanism
12:51:12 [McCool]
ml: let me capture the event problem in an issue...
12:51:58 [McCool]
q+
12:55:10 [McCool]
ack m
12:55:40 [McCool]
mm: note that queuing etc. has various issues and different behavior have different use cases
12:56:00 [McCool]
... also need to worry about arbitrary space being used for a queue
12:56:18 [McCool]
kaz: think we need to think about where this goes... does it belong in profiles?
12:56:37 [McCool]
... can discuss it here, but may have to bring to other TFs later
12:56:59 [McCool]
ml: have some problems with that from timeline perspective
12:57:33 [McCool]
... at end of charter, don't see problem with specifying additional behavior since TDs does not really say anything specific here
12:57:54 [McCool]
... do feel this behavioral description is a profile topic
12:58:31 [McCool]
kaz: if we really do want to include all this information that is not described by other specs, then spec should be called "Implementation Details" or something
12:58:40 [McCool]
ml: that does not really help anybody...
12:58:41 [McCool]
q+
12:58:42 [McCool]
q?
12:58:45 [McCool]
ack k
12:59:11 [McCool]
ml: Profiles is about how to use existing features in an unabiguous way, so imo this makes sense
12:59:28 [McCool]
kaz: still, I think this discussion is broader than profiles
12:59:35 [McCool]
... think we need to think about it more
12:59:54 [McCool]
ml: we do have a spec, an implementer has raised some issues about some loopholes
13:00:14 [McCool]
... do not want to reopen such fundamental things that have already been decided
13:00:27 [McCool]
... have a chapter which has already been reviewed, etc.
13:01:08 [McCool]
ege: don't oppose async actions themselves, but feel TD is immature at this point, can't describe some of this
13:01:10 [kaz]
s/about it/about how to describe it within which specification(s)/
13:01:25 [McCool]
... also tried to implement queued actions, need to dig into threading, etc.
13:01:41 [McCool]
... much simpler to implement actions that overwrite another one
13:02:03 [McCool]
... since queue is more difficult for implementors, so...
13:02:49 [McCool]
ml: propose a consensus, that we remove queuing and use overwriting
13:03:18 [McCool]
mm: agree, KISS principle, but maybe we want an event if an action gets overwritten/cancelled by another action posted
13:03:51 [McCool]
luca: ok, let me look into it and see what I can do about a PR
13:04:08 [McCool]
ml: issue 369
13:04:45 [luca_barbato]
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13:05:46 [benfrancis]
FYI The current actions protocol binding is not a queue. It doesn't say that actions can not be performed in parallel.
13:06:26 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/369#issue-1604939950 comments on Issue 369 based on the discussion today
13:06:29 [kaz]
[adjourned]
13:06:33 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:06:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
14:56:06 [Mizushima]
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15:04:20 [Zakim]
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