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12:02:58 <kaz> meeting: WoT Profile
12:03:06 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Lagally
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12:06:32 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-profile
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12:07:27 <kaz> present+ Ege_Korkan, Michael_McCool, Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:08:48 <McCool> topic: Housekeeping
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12:09:06 <McCool> ml: proposed agenda, note future agendas for looking at wide review feedback
12:09:22 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Profile_WebConf#Profile_-_March_1st.2C_2023
12:09:25 <McCool> ml: minutes from Feb 22, 2023
12:09:32 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html Feb-22
12:10:28 <McCool> ... any objections to approving the call notes?
12:10:33 <McCool> ... hearing none, approved
12:10:44 <McCool> topic: wide reviews
12:10:54 <McCool> ml: to recap, started wide review
12:11:35 <McCool> ... however, the schedule may need to be updated
12:11:51 <McCool> mm: note that asked for wide review to create issues in our repo
12:12:57 <McCool> ml: ok, looks like they have noticed our request, let's see if there are any issues
12:13:04 <kaz> i|to recap|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/358 wot-profile issue 358 - Wide review|
12:13:05 <McCool> ... and also any other new issues
12:13:10 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:13:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:13:28 <McCool> ml: seems to be no wide review issues yet
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12:16:15 <McCool> ml: some followup conversation on cloud message format
12:16:40 <Ege> q+
12:16:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:16:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:17:06 <kaz> chair: Lagally
12:17:34 <kaz> i/some foll/topic: PR 330/
12:17:53 <McCool> .. regarding cloud events, I think we need to make a clear policy decision
12:18:07 <McCool> ege: suggest however we skip this for now since it's informative
12:18:19 <kaz> i|some fol|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/330 wot-profile PR 330 - Cloud Events Message Format|
12:18:38 <kaz> q+
12:18:40 <kaz> ack e
12:18:48 <McCool> ... in particular security and async actions
12:19:09 <McCool> q?
12:19:12 <Ege> q+
12:19:52 <kaz> ack k
12:19:55 <McCool> kaz: regarding PR #330, not sure we can discuss without ben
12:20:07 <McCool> q+
12:21:22 <kaz> s/without ben/without Ben. If we need his participation for this PR, we should invite him to one of the Profile calls rather than we discuss this without him today./
12:21:35 <McCool> ege: regarding policy, in current spec (maybe old text), said reduce impl burden...
12:21:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:21:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:22:00 <McCool> mm: still, suggest we prioritize normative topics today; since security is WIP, that leaves async actions
12:22:22 <kaz> topic: PR 271
12:22:23 <McCool> topic: Pr 271
12:22:23 <mlagally_> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271
12:22:34 <kaz> s/topic: Pr 271//
12:22:51 <McCool> ml: this is in the normative section, implementation of a conversation we had about identifiers
12:23:10 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/271 wot-profile PR 271 - Common constraints - identifiers|
12:24:03 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-profile/271/885bfe1...2178fa8.html#sec-identifiers diff
12:24:13 <kaz> s/diff/diff - 8. Identifiers/
12:24:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:24:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:24:59 <Ege> q+
12:26:14 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/349
12:26:26 <McCool> mm: issue is we can't have contradictory assertions about requiring immutable identifiers in one place and not allowing them in another
12:26:44 <McCool> ege: also, in some cases we are repeating assertions already in the TD spec
12:27:14 <kaz> [[
12:27:15 <kaz> Ideally, any required immutable identifiers SHOULD only be made available via affordances, such as a property, whose value can only be obtained after appropriate authentication and authorization, and managed separately from the TD identifier.
12:27:16 <kaz> ]]
12:27:34 <McCool> mm: agree with ege; we can have an informative statement referencing another assertion in another spec, but repeating it should be avoided
12:28:02 <McCool> ege: in the end profiles define TDs which need to follow the TD spec
12:28:13 <kaz> q+
12:28:18 <kaz> ack e
12:28:22 <McCool> ml: still, TD may have assertions that are not applicable
12:28:43 <McCool> ... if there are anything contradictory, please point them out, we don't want that
12:29:30 <McCool> ege: if there are some assertions that are not applicable, if there is a subset, may need a mechanism for this
12:29:52 <McCool> ... but if it's simply that we don't use some features, don't really have to say anything
12:29:55 <McCool> q+
12:31:21 <McCool> mm: we need to be clear by what we mean by "not using a feature" - it can be not mentioning something, and there can be forbidding use of a feature
12:32:00 <McCool> ege: question is whether the profile doc can override an assertion in the TD spec
12:32:02 <McCool> q+
12:32:08 <McCool> q?
12:32:16 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/349 related issue 349 - Are all TD 1.1 assertions valid in all profiles?
12:33:08 <McCool> ml: please create if PR
12:34:16 <McCool> mm: subset may be confusing; meant in mathematical sense, but...
12:34:31 <McCool> ... still, suggest we look at actions
12:34:55 <McCool> kaz: question is which level of text should be included in profile, normative or not, etc.
12:35:28 <McCool> ... for example, some things could just be guidelines, and then reference other specs for normative content
12:35:40 <McCool> ... more important things can be normative
12:37:03 <McCool> ... still seems to be some overlap and confusion that need to decide how to resolve
12:37:23 <McCool> ... e.g. maybe some TD text should be moved to this spec
12:37:36 <McCool> q?
12:37:38 <McCool> ack m
12:37:41 <McCool> ack k
12:38:02 <McCool> ml: let's look at P1 issues, esp async actions
12:39:15 <McCool> q+
12:40:53 <McCool> ack m
12:40:58 <McCool> topic: Actions
12:41:08 <McCool> ml: specific issues?
12:41:28 <McCool> ege: remember discussion, not sure there are specific issue, but problem is testing
12:41:34 <kaz> s/create if PR/create a PR/
12:41:42 <McCool> ... some discussion about removing it; how needed is it?
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12:42:12 <McCool> ... also, it tends to result in large TDs or those that don't follow TD spec
12:42:23 <McCool> ml: if does not follow, please create issues
12:42:51 <kaz> i|specific issues|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AP1 Priority 1 issues|
12:42:51 <McCool> ege: some TDs submitted for testing were very large
12:42:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:42:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:43:05 <McCool> ml: what is the problem with that?
12:43:24 <McCool> ege: feel the schema definitions are not being using in the intended way; additional responses being used to model interactions
12:43:41 <McCool> ml: what is "enough" implementations?
12:43:51 <luca_barbato> q+
12:43:55 <McCool> ege: at least one more on thing side and two more on consumer side
12:44:00 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/data/input_2022/Profile/TD/Oracle/TDs/BluePump%20WebThing.td.jsonld
12:44:10 <McCool> ml: want draft first, then implementations
12:44:21 <McCool> ege: also a question about how needed it is
12:44:39 <McCool> ... e.g. discussion of removing device flow for OAuth, that's ok
12:44:53 <McCool> ml: in many use cases async actions are widely used
12:45:15 <kaz> present+ Luca_Barbato
12:45:19 <McCool> ... if TD does not allow us to model payload formats, it becomes a problem
12:45:59 <McCool> ... seems to be overkill to go a binding template for one or two payload formats
12:46:00 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:46:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:46:17 <kaz> q+
12:46:22 <McCool> ... feel that profile is redefining a payload format and behavior
12:46:28 <McCool> q+
12:47:12 <McCool> luca: we tried to implement async actions, do think that actions in general should be treated asynchronously
12:47:32 <McCool> ... we are missing some features, for example a way to observe actions, part of the problem
12:47:46 <McCool> ... at least, when we try to implement that part, saw there was a problem
12:47:57 <Ege> also relevant comment about this: https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/pull/55#discussion_r1114152244
12:48:25 <McCool> ... but in general, actions *are* asynchronous, if we assume they are synchronous it leads to a lot of problems
12:48:43 <McCool> ... another issue is multiple invocations of an actions
12:49:14 <McCool> ... lots of clarification is needed, but in general I don't feel we can get away with not doing then
12:49:43 <Ege> q+
12:49:54 <kaz> ack lu
12:50:21 <McCool> mm: to clarify, you thing async actions are important, and are working on an implementation?
12:50:35 <kaz> s/you thing/you think/
12:50:37 <McCool> luca: correct, but also see some problems in the current spec, e.g. event mechanism
12:51:12 <McCool> ml: let me capture the event problem in an issue...
12:51:58 <McCool> q+
12:55:10 <McCool> ack m
12:55:40 <McCool> mm: note that queuing etc. has various issues and different behavior have different use cases
12:56:00 <McCool> ... also need to worry about arbitrary space being used for a queue
12:56:18 <McCool> kaz: think we need to think about where this goes... does it belong in profiles?
12:56:37 <McCool> ... can discuss it here, but may have to bring to other TFs later
12:56:59 <McCool> ml: have some problems with that from timeline perspective
12:57:33 <McCool> ... at end of charter, don't see problem with specifying additional behavior since TDs does not really say anything specific here
12:57:54 <McCool> ... do feel this behavioral description is a profile topic
12:58:31 <McCool> kaz: if we really do want to include all this information that is not described by other specs, then spec should be called "Implementation Details" or something
12:58:40 <McCool> ml: that does not really help anybody...
12:58:41 <McCool> q+
12:58:42 <McCool> q?
12:58:45 <McCool> ack k
12:59:11 <McCool> ml: Profiles is about how to use existing features in an unabiguous way, so imo this makes sense
12:59:28 <McCool> kaz: still, I think this discussion is broader than profiles
12:59:35 <McCool> ... think we need to think about it more
12:59:54 <McCool> ml: we do have a spec, an implementer has raised some issues about some loopholes
13:00:14 <McCool> ... do not want to reopen such fundamental things that have already been decided
13:00:27 <McCool> ... have a chapter which has already been reviewed, etc.
13:01:08 <McCool> ege: don't oppose async actions themselves, but feel TD is immature at this point, can't describe some of this
13:01:10 <kaz> s/about it/about how to describe it within which specification(s)/
13:01:25 <McCool> ... also tried to implement queued actions, need to dig into threading, etc.
13:01:41 <McCool> ... much simpler to implement actions that overwrite another one
13:02:03 <McCool> ... since queue is more difficult for implementors, so...
13:02:49 <McCool> ml: propose a consensus, that we remove queuing and use overwriting
13:03:18 <McCool> mm: agree, KISS principle, but maybe we want an event if an action gets overwritten/cancelled by another action posted
13:03:51 <McCool> luca: ok, let me look into it and see what I can do about a PR
13:04:08 <McCool> ml: issue 369
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13:05:46 <benfrancis> FYI The current actions protocol binding is not a queue. It doesn't say that actions can not be performed in parallel.
13:06:26 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/369#issue-1604939950 comments on Issue 369 based on the discussion today
13:06:29 <kaz> [adjourned]
13:06:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:06:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/01-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
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