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17:56:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-aria-irc
17:56:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:57:03 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:57:03 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:57:03 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:57:03 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:57:03 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/665c08c6-871d-4f53-a758-d6259ca56ca1/20230223T130000
17:57:03 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:57:03 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3SnZN9Q
17:57:03 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3IlmFC3
17:57:03 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:57:03 <agendabot> agenda+ F2F Planning - May 3/4 in Seattle, WA - host Adobe
17:57:03 <agendabot> agenda+  -> should aria-expanded be allowed on searchbox and textbox? #1875 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1875
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18:01:31 <jamesn> agenda?
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18:02:12 <pkra> scribe: pkra
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18:02:25 <scotto> present+
18:02:29 <pkra> present+
18:02:30 <arigilmore> present+
18:02:36 <jamesn> present+
18:03:23 <spectranaut_> present+
18:03:29 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:03:29 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3SnZN9Q -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:04:55 <pkra> spectranaut_:  w3c/core-aam #165
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18:05:18 <pkra> scotto: move to html-aam
18:05:26 <pkra> ... there's already a PR there.
18:05:39 <pkra> jnurthen: should we just close with link?
18:05:43 <pkra> scotto: sounds good.
18:05:53 <scotto> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/446
18:06:06 <pkra> spectranaut_: will do
18:06:56 <pkra> ...  next w3c/aria #1877 another from Anne
18:07:17 <pkra> ... about tooling
18:07:42 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:07:53 <StefanS> present+
18:08:33 <pkra> pkra: assign to me for the chairs meeting
18:08:42 <pkra> jnurthen: yes, editors' issue
18:09:06 <pkra> spectranaut_: next  w3c/html-aam #461
18:09:18 <pkra> scotto: it's a clarification
18:09:50 <pkra> ... I'll make it clearer, help to connect the dots
18:09:59 <pkra> spectranaut_:  w3c/aria #1875
18:10:01 <pkra> ... on agenda
18:10:09 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:10:09 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3IlmFC3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:10:17 <daniel-montalvo> present+ Daniel
18:10:21 <pkra> spectranaut_:  w3c/aria #1876
18:10:25 <pkra> ... mixins
18:11:02 <pkra> ... upstream is merged
18:11:06 <pkra> ... we can un-draft it again.
18:11:38 <pkra> jnurthen: can we ask Alice?
18:11:44 <pkra> spectranaut_: yes!
18:12:22 <pkra> jnurthen: cynthia would also be a good reviewr.
18:12:38 <pkra> ... will also ask in AOM meeting.
18:12:58 <pkra> spectranaut_:  next up: w3c/aria #1873
18:13:24 <pkra> ari: there was already some discussion.
18:14:06 <pkra> ... 1-9 seems fine across the board, the rest a bit iffy
18:14:20 <pkra> mattking: I thought 8 was the limit.
18:14:28 <pkra> spectranaut_: jawsTest did a bunch of testing
18:14:57 <pkra> ... JAWS struggling with greater than 6
18:15:10 <pkra> jnurthen: it's not a browser problem.
18:15:18 <pkra> mattking: sounds like an ARIA-AT test in the making
18:15:53 <pkra> spectranaut_: PR limits authors to 6
18:15:58 <pkra> mattking: so then just like HTML
18:16:15 <pkra> spectranaut_: more because every browser+AT combo supports it.
18:16:45 <pkra> ... pkra and scotto suggested that it's more a browser / AT bug
18:16:54 <pkra> scotto: I didn't suggest a limit.
18:16:55 <pkra> pkra: me neither
18:17:13 <melsumner> I think we should support what HTML does and not do more than that.
18:17:17 <pkra> scotto: [channeling jcraig a bit]
18:17:30 <pkra> mattking: it's a structuring problem of course.
18:17:37 <pkra> ... no way to navigate with AT etc
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18:18:16 <pkra> ... if we align with HTML, then we only go to 6.
18:20:02 <pkra> pkra: I feel like while it's a bad idea, we would be breaking existing implementations. Stopping at 6 when there's more that's supported seems unnecessayr
18:20:06 <pkra> mattking: use cases?
18:20:12 <pkra> scotto: I recall a code editor
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18:21:09 <pkra> pkra: I know use cases in publishing.
18:21:15 <CurtBellew> present+
18:21:21 <pkra> ... but they are niche and practically frequently rewritten
18:21:35 <pkra> spectranaut_: maybe we should talk to browsers and AT about the inconsistencies
18:22:00 <jamesn> if we were to change would need to file a WCAG issue https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/aria#:~:text=ARIA%20Techniques%20for%20WCAG%202.0%201%20ARIA1%3A%20Using,role%20of%20a%20user%20interface%20component%20Applicability%20
18:22:16 <pkra> scotto: maybe the PR should add a note that best practice is 1 through 6, the problems with going beyond it.
18:22:20 <pkra> ... e.g., number keys in AT
18:22:36 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/aria/ARIA12
18:22:50 <pkra> mattking: e.g., VoiceOver has a "find next of same type" which would theoretically work.
18:22:59 <pkra> scotto: and just H key would not skip.
18:23:11 <melsumner> q+
18:23:14 <pkra> mattking: I like the idea of a note.
18:23:32 <pkra> pkra: +1
18:23:46 <jamesn> q?
18:23:50 <pkra> jnurthen: I added a link to a WCAG technique referring to level 7./
18:24:01 <pkra> spectranaut_: could aria-at help here?
18:24:09 <pkra> mattking: yes, we could do that.
18:24:28 <StefanS> q+
18:24:29 <pkra> ... it could get AT to support the level we want
18:24:34 <pkra> q
18:24:35 <spectranaut_> q?
18:24:42 <pkra> q-
18:24:43 <jamesn> ack melsumner
18:25:05 <pkra> melsumner: the wcag documentation is a made up example so I feel that should be abel to change
18:25:21 <pkra> ... it's a cognitive issue. 6 levels are too much.
18:25:36 <spectranaut_> q?
18:25:38 <pkra> ... we should not support problematic use cases.
18:26:09 <jamesn> q+
18:26:22 <pkra> mattking: would the note be sufficient? If there's a specific use case, then why deny it?
18:26:38 <spectranaut_> q+
18:26:45 <pkra> melsumner: there's a difference between what's allowed and what is a good idea.
18:26:58 <pkra> ... allowed becoming an escape hatch
18:27:13 <scotto> q+
18:27:35 <spectranaut_> ack StefanS
18:27:37 <pkra> StefanS: this is potentially related to other number dependent properties, e.g., aria-level
18:27:55 <pkra> ... no theoretic limit but cognitive one.
18:28:01 <StefanS> q-
18:28:03 <spectranaut_> ack spectranaut_
18:28:19 <pkra> spectranaut_: APG exists for more specific guidance.
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18:28:30 <pkra> ... Ari opened an issue there beforehand.
18:28:34 <Matt_King> present+
18:28:58 <pkra> ... jcraig, scott added that sometimes there are edge cases that are still usable, based on usability research. Not sure we should limit that.
18:29:14 <pkra> ... if there's a book, e.g., art or poetry, then perhaps that's something that works.
18:29:29 <spectranaut_> q?
18:29:29 <pkra> ... in a "regular" situation, this is not what authors should do.
18:29:33 <jamesn> ack me
18:30:13 <pkra> jamesn: I also think we should limit ourselves to technically possible. E.g., legal documentation is such an example.
18:30:44 <pkra> ... e.g., documents as a single page in shorter form, then lower level headings, but combined together it has additional levels.
18:30:54 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
18:31:35 <pkra> scotto: even wcag is vague sometimes about what's good. e.g., keyboard navigable does not have to be "good".
18:31:59 <pkra> ... which is why we should have a note to make it clear what is good practice vs what's technically possible.
18:32:44 <pkra> ari: I will work on a note.
18:33:23 <pkra> StefanS: so this feels like APG territory, including aria-level.
18:33:54 <pkra> ... so heading maybe up to 7, maybe trees are different etc.
18:33:58 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:33:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:34:18 <pkra> spectranaut_: mininum role next week
18:34:37 <pkra> ... then continue to discuss secondary actions at F2F
18:35:02 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e957ab02-020d-4e5d-9f31-65505f8b1d82
18:35:09 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:35:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- F2F Planning - May 3/4 in Seattle, WA - host Adobe -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:35:43 <pkra> jnurthen: please re-check deep dive meeting details - they have changed.
18:36:01 <pkra> spectranaut_: F2F planning.
18:36:20 <pkra> jnurthen: there's availability for a room at Adobe.
18:36:27 <pkra> ... wait with flights until we have confirmation
18:37:03 <pkra> spectranaut_: remember to add F2F candidate label on PRs and issues when you want to discuss those
18:37:18 <pkra> ... it's important for people to decide if they attend
18:37:46 <pkra> mattking: are there issue marked for longer workshop-like sessions?
18:37:57 <pkra> jnurthen: not yet.
18:38:01 <pkra> ... maybe openUI
18:38:10 <pkra> ... more thoughts on fixing tables.
18:38:20 <pkra> ... I would like those but nothing firm.
18:38:26 <melsumner> +100 to tables
18:38:53 <pkra> mattking: any information on accomodations around the location?
18:39:26 <pkra> jnurthen: I think it's not ideal.
18:40:00 <pkra> sarah_higley: fremont neighborhood. lots of restaurants etc around it. good bus connections.
18:40:42 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:40:42 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> should aria-expanded be allowed on searchbox and textbox? #1875 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1875 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:41:04 <pkra> jnurthen: seemed like a spec inconsistency.
18:41:18 <pkra> ... searchbox and textbox allow auto completion
18:41:37 <pkra> ... but aria-expanded is not allowed.
18:42:02 <pkra> ... should it be allowed? Should auto-complete only be limited?
18:42:13 <scotto> q+
18:42:22 <pkra> mattking: an interesting conundrum.
18:42:42 <sarah_higley> q+
18:43:24 <spectranaut_> q?
18:43:26 <pkra> ... on a search box, it becomes a kind of combo box. primary use case for text box is probably type-ahead.
18:43:41 <pkra> ... doesn't make sense for single line text box, then it's just a combo box.
18:44:18 <pkra> scotto: we had some discussions with product team. They wanted to do this but we suggested combo box.
18:44:43 <pkra> ... search box is another example. Usually you get "search, search box".
18:45:15 <pkra> ... so we were wondering about the functional difference.
18:45:25 <pkra> ... does it really need to go on a search?
18:45:41 <siri> usually search boxes that provide suggestions are marked up as combobox
18:45:54 <pkra> ... e.g., ghosting autocomplete, hitting tab to complete, should that really be a combobox?
18:46:02 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
18:46:05 <spectranaut_> ack sarah_higley
18:46:13 <Matt_King> q+
18:46:36 <pkra> sarah_higley: adding to that. From usability studies on combo-box. people expect to pick from options, not a lot of people start typing.
18:46:56 <pkra> ... especially screenreader users responded that they didn't expect they could type.
18:47:14 <pkra> ... despite scenario descriptions that might have hinted at it.
18:47:34 <pkra> ... combobox is not the most useful role for a search box.
18:47:46 <pkra> ... feels like expanded is the one thing that's missing. everything else is there.
18:48:18 <pkra> ... then content editable situations isare another example that's not a combo box.
18:49:28 <pkra> mattking: need a purpose for search box role; specifying, what it really is.
18:49:40 <pkra> ... html select maps to combo-box when size is 1.
18:50:04 <pkra> ... in OSs there's been an editable combo-box for a long while.
18:50:11 <pkra> ... very differently announced, too.
18:50:26 <scotto> <input list=foo><datalist id=foo> ... </datalist>  also maps to combobox.... but this has been a rather problematic pattern for some time, and people don't often like it because the datalist can't be styled
18:50:31 <spectranaut_> q?
18:50:34 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
18:51:02 <pkra> ... to make a text box with all the features of combo box is just that but announced as text box.
18:51:21 <pkra> ... that would force AT to announce all properties to make users aware
18:51:39 <pkra> sarah_higley: free form box was throwing people. The fact that they could type something that wasn't in the suggestions.
18:52:17 <pkra> mattking: interesting. maybe it's more appropriate to say it's a text box in that case. E.g., VS Code in the search field, it's actually a multiline text field.
18:52:31 <pkra> ... when you write a long regular expression, it wraps.
18:52:39 <pkra> ... you can move outside it and it might change to previous search.
18:52:51 <pkra> ... I don't think aria provides a good solution to that.
18:53:39 <pkra> Adam_Page: examples I run into is type ahead vs results presented as list. was search box role suggested to cover both cases?
18:53:58 <pkra> siri: we have different types of combo boxes, e.g. as adam mentioned.
18:54:36 <pkra> mattking: I feel we haven't decided what search box is
18:55:17 <pkra> ... e.g., search in iOS doesn't work like typeahead but you might see a list of suggested results. It doesn't have an equivalent to expanded/collapsed in iOS.
18:55:30 <pkra> ... I don't really know if the role search box is valuable to AT users or not.
18:55:52 <sarah_higley> q+
18:56:00 <pkra> ... if we tried to make a distinction, I'm not sure those are going to end up helping users.
18:56:02 <jamesn> q+
18:56:15 <pkra> ... I always feel fewer roles are better.
18:56:28 <pkra> ... then explain what it does to users.
18:56:33 <pkra> ... more roles risk more confusion.
18:56:46 <jamesn> ack sarah_higley
18:57:13 <pkra> sarah_higley: in theory I agree, in practice I found when allowing free text input and suggestions, combo box is not the best solution for end users.
18:57:18 <pkra> ... so feel like allowing it.
18:57:23 <pkra> ... textbox I find more difficult.
18:57:36 <pkra> ... primary use case seems to be a multiline input.
18:57:48 <pkra> ... that implies to authors they can remake the combo box role witout combobox
18:58:00 <pkra> ... seems like edge case for text box but main case for a combo box pattern.
18:58:17 <pkra> ... if we don't allow it - since we already have active descendant - I feel either both or neither.
18:58:29 <spectranaut_> q?
18:58:31 <pkra> mattking: but in multiline is not expanding something, right?
18:58:39 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
18:58:39 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
18:58:57 <pkra> ... the span that triggers the expansion is the thing that is expanded. not the parent text area.
18:59:04 <pkra> ... that feels hard to solve.
18:59:17 <pkra> sarah_higley: but the focus is on the parent.
18:59:25 <pkra> mattking: but caret is inside
18:59:37 <pkra> sarah_higley: almost as if the web wasn't designed for editable documents ;-)
18:59:49 <pkra> jnurthen: I'd love to find something useful to do for search box.
18:59:56 <pkra> ... seems like nobody knows something useful to do with it.
19:00:11 <pkra> scotto: if you put expanded on it, NVDA turns it into a menu-item.
19:00:43 <pkra> spectranaut_: are there next steps?
19:01:26 <pkra> mattking: feels like we haven't done this because the other use cases are a bit undefined. free form text input where something inside triggers popup
19:01:33 <pkra> ... is something we don't have a solid pattern for.
19:01:49 <pkra> ... maybe approach this from use case perspective instead of starting from aria.
19:02:32 <pkra> jnurthen: we should just solve 1 or 2. The it's at least useful.
19:02:37 <pkra> ... something for openUI perhaps, too.
19:02:52 <sarah_higley> present+
19:03:01 <melsumner> present+
19:03:03 <pkra> RRSAgent: make minutes
19:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-aria-minutes.html pkra
19:03:12 <pkra> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:03:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-aria-minutes.html pkra
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