IRC log of wot-profile on 2023-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:56:39 [RRSAgent]
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11:56:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-irc
11:56:47 [kaz]
meeting: WoT Profile
12:02:20 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool
12:04:42 [mlagally]
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12:04:44 [McCool]
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12:06:04 [Mizushima]
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12:08:00 [McCool]
scribenick: McCool
12:08:06 [McCool]
topic: Minutes
12:08:29 [McCool]
ml: review of minutes from Feb 8, 2023
12:08:34 [mlagally]
https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-wot-profile-minutes.html
12:08:43 [kaz]
s/http/-> http/
12:08:47 [kaz]
s/html/html Feb-8/
12:09:25 [McCool]
mm: did create the wide review issues
12:09:38 [McCool]
ml: any objections to publishing?
12:09:44 [McCool]
... none, will publish
12:10:09 [McCool]
topic: Wide Review and Explainer
12:10:13 [Ege]
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12:10:26 [kaz]
present+ Ege_Korkan, Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:10:33 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Profile_WebConf#Profile_-_Feb_22nd.2C_2023
12:11:07 [McCool]
mm: note that I generally set March 20 as deadline for review
12:11:17 [McCool]
ml: suggest a reminder on March 15 or so
12:11:24 [ryuichi]
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12:11:47 [kaz]
i|note that|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/358 wot-profile issue 358 - Wide review|
12:11:55 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:11:57 [McCool]
mm: suggest adding that to the agenda for the Profile call that week
12:12:00 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:12:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:12:08 [luca_barbato_]
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12:12:32 [McCool]
ml: ok, that will be March 15
12:13:53 [McCool]
mm: also explainer looks ok
12:14:22 [mlagally]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/362
12:14:25 [McCool]
ml: I did merge the editorial fix for the explainer - PR 362
12:14:43 [McCool]
mm: ok, I reviewed and was ok with it
12:14:47 [McCool]
topic: PRs
12:14:59 [McCool]
subtopic: PR 365
12:15:03 [mlagally]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/365/files
12:15:14 [McCool]
ml: another explainer fix, removing some duplicate text
12:15:24 [McCool]
mm: concur with merging
12:15:28 [McCool]
ml: (merges)
12:16:06 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:16:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:16:13 [McCool]
subtopic: PR 364
12:16:29 [McCool]
ml: http security
12:17:12 [Ege]
q+
12:17:36 [kaz]
mm: (explains the discussion during the Security call)
12:18:13 [kaz]
present+ Luca_Barbato
12:18:33 [McCool]
mm: so we discussed this in security and had a set of action items, Luca volunteered to make a PR
12:18:50 [McCool]
... but there were some feedback from Ben we needed to address
12:19:32 [kaz]
i|so we di|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/6#issuecomment-1427962430 comments on Issue 6 (Recommended Security) based on the discussion during the Security call on Feb 13|
12:20:27 [kaz]
ml: (shows section "5.4 Security" from the diff)
12:20:32 [kaz]
-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-profile/364/f72b27f...luminem:8b72f9e.html#common-constraints-security diff - 5.4 Security
12:20:43 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:20:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:23:53 [kaz]
scribenick: kaz
12:24:25 [kaz]
ml: let's keep this open, and try another PR for simpler fix
12:25:37 [kaz]
... Luca, if you can add necessary change to this PR, we can merge this PR as well
12:25:46 [kaz]
ek: what about Webhook?
12:26:05 [kaz]
... currently, security is a common restriction. right?
12:26:25 [kaz]
mm: Security TF proposed we move the security portion under the HTTP Core Profile
12:26:31 [kaz]
... but Ben objected
12:26:36 [McCool]
q?
12:26:36 [kaz]
... so we're putting it back
12:26:40 [kaz]
ack e
12:26:44 [McCool]
ack e
12:27:32 [kaz]
q+
12:28:22 [kaz]
conclusion: Luca will make necessary changes to PR 364 so that we can merge the PR
12:28:32 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 334
12:28:45 [kaz]
ml: Sebastian is not here, so skip it
12:28:55 [kaz]
subtopic: PR 330
12:29:24 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/330 PR 330 - Cloud Events Message Format
12:29:46 [McCool]
q+
12:29:58 [kaz]
ml: (shows section "11. Cloud Events Message Format")
12:29:59 [kaz]
ack k
12:30:09 [Ege]
q+
12:30:28 [kaz]
-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-profile/330/885bfe1...b198791.html#sec-http-webhook-profile-message-format diff - 11. Cloud Events Message Format
12:30:53 [kaz]
mm: there was pretty good resource on Webhook security on the Web
12:31:06 [kaz]
... so the Security TF wanted to follow that
12:31:13 [kaz]
ack m
12:31:29 [kaz]
... looked at several resources
12:31:48 [kaz]
... on possibility is adopting to that kind of definitions
12:32:02 [kaz]
s/definitions/definition/
12:33:12 [kaz]
ml: (shows related issue 224)
12:34:02 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/224#issuecomment-1437303668 McCool's comments on Webhooks definitions in the issue 224 - subscribeallevents security requirements
12:34:32 [kaz]
q+
12:35:55 [kaz]
ml: (shows the cloudevents repo)
12:36:13 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/cloudevents/spec/blob/v1.0.2/cloudevents/http-webhook.md HTTP 1.1 Web Hooks for Event Delivery - Version 1.0.2
12:36:23 [kaz]
mm: would add an Editor's Note
12:36:47 [kaz]
ek: multiple comments
12:37:09 [kaz]
... why do we need to use time for informative part of the spec?
12:37:56 [kaz]
... think normative sections should be more important like sync/async
12:38:49 [kaz]
... not sure if this would be a good format for green-field Things
12:38:52 [McCool]
q?
12:39:00 [McCool]
q+
12:39:05 [kaz]
ml: we're working not only for green-field Things
12:39:08 [kaz]
ack e
12:39:25 [Ege]
not acked yet
12:39:28 [Ege]
qq+
12:39:46 [luca_barbato_]
q+
12:40:25 [kaz]
... need this kind of clarification since there is no normative binding templates spec yet
12:41:38 [kaz]
ek: if metadata-based approach is not available, we need to use this kind of approach like Webhook
12:41:58 [kaz]
s/Webhook/Cloud events/
12:42:23 [kaz]
... but Webhook is not a standard yet
12:44:34 [Ege]
my comments were not exactly what is scribed: cloudevents is putting metadata in the payload which is redundant in WoT since we have TDs. It mandates putting contentType, resource, cloudevents spec version in the payload which can be all in the TD and not in the payload
12:45:30 [Ege]
also cloudevents is in the incubation phase of cloud native foundation at https://www.cncf.io/projects/ and even if it was in the graduated projects, it is not a standard (and probably will not be) unless Cloud Native Foundation is recognized as SDO by the W3C
12:46:02 [kaz]
kaz: sounds like we all are not on the same page
12:46:11 [Ege]
so we need to specify everything ourselves
12:46:39 [kaz]
... so would suggest we once go back to what we want to do for what kind of use case using which mechanism
12:47:07 [kaz]
... then revisit how to describe that within our spec like WoT Profile after that
12:47:13 [Ege]
q+
12:47:18 [kaz]
ack e
12:47:18 [Zakim]
Ege, you wanted to react to Ege and to
12:47:21 [kaz]
ack k
12:47:25 [kaz]
q+ Ege
12:47:33 [Ege]
I am not objecting webhooks btw
12:48:08 [Ege]
also if we are now discussing about supporting brownfield, we are breaking the entire design of profiles...
12:50:18 [Ege]
q?
12:50:21 [Ege]
ack m
12:50:39 [kaz]
mm: from my viewpoint, this is needed for compatibility with existing mechanisms
12:51:20 [kaz]
... Ben's alternative proposal is worth considering
12:52:33 [kaz]
ml: (shows one of Ben's comments)
12:52:55 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/258#issuecomment-1216599450 Ben's proposal with a table of Member/Type/Mandatory/Comment
12:53:04 [McCool]
luca: two issues, one is web hooks, widely different approaches
12:53:14 [kaz]
i/Luca/scribenick: McCool/
12:53:19 [McCool]
... other is payload, not that closely bound to the pattern
12:53:25 [McCool]
q+
12:53:35 [kaz]
ack l
12:53:40 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:53:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:54:03 [McCool]
... so could do payload separately, e.g. profile that does webhook+cloud events, and another one that is webhook+ben's proposal
12:54:07 [kaz]
chair: Lagally
12:54:15 [McCool]
... we don't have to make a decision of one or the other
12:54:31 [kaz]
i/explains the/scribenick: kaz/
12:54:36 [McCool]
ml: agree, I think we can have multiple profiles, and that is way out
12:54:46 [McCool]
ege: not necessarily profiles in that request
12:54:48 [kaz]
i/so we discuss/scribenick: McCool/
12:54:58 [kaz]
i/shows section/scribenick: kaz/
12:55:07 [kaz]
i/Luca will make/scribenick: kaz/
12:55:13 [McCool]
... and if we allow combinations, they could multiply, if we have a lot of profiles, will lose interop
12:55:17 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:55:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:55:33 [McCool]
... and then it's not clear to a developer what they should use
12:55:46 [kaz]
i/two issues/scribenick: McCool/
12:55:48 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:55:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:56:25 [McCool]
... and don't really want to be recommending and inefficient approach
12:56:25 [McCool]
s/and/an/
12:56:25 [McCool]
... that also raises implementation burden
12:56:25 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:56:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:56:36 [McCool]
ml: this profile is specifically for integration with cloud systems that use cloud events
12:56:48 [kaz]
q+
12:57:13 [McCool]
ege: still makes consumer very complicated, consumer has to support everything given in a TD
12:57:29 [McCool]
ml: we are still increasing interoperability with existing systems
12:57:47 [McCool]
ege: not necessarily; if have two proposals, consumer needs to support both
12:57:50 [kaz]
s/comments)/comments including a table)/
12:57:57 [kaz]
ack e
12:58:24 [McCool]
ml: from implementation perspective, still just parsing JSON object, can ignore things they don't care about, not that hard
12:58:49 [McCool]
... would like to ask that we get some alternative PRs
12:58:57 [kaz]
mm: in summary, agree with Lagally
12:59:01 [kaz]
... two proposals here
12:59:43 [kaz]
... let's move on and see the other issues
13:00:31 [McCool]
kaz: my viewpoint, seems this topic is bigger than one section within profiles, and probably needs more analysis and discussion within whole working group
13:01:01 [McCool]
... ok with handling this as part of bindings, but then we need to discuss it there; it may also impact other specifications
13:01:38 [McCool]
mm: also note that event mechanisms not in next charter
13:01:56 [kaz]
i/in sum/scribenick: kaz/
13:02:03 [kaz]
i/my viewpoint/scribenick: McCool/
13:02:07 [kaz]
[adjourned]
13:02:12 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:02:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
13:02:20 [McCool]
ml: I think it would be unfortunate to wait three years for webhooks, however
15:27:02 [Zakim]
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