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14:55:32 <Paul_B> Meeting: Publishing Community Group, Education Task Force Telecon
14:55:49 <Paul_B> Date: 22 February 2023
14:55:59 <Paul_B> Chair: Paul Belfanti
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15:02:09 <sue_neu> present+
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15:02:29 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:02:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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15:03:07 <JF> Present+
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15:07:03 <Paul_B> scribenick: sue_neu
15:07:05 <CharlesL> present+
15:07:39 <sue_neu> Paul: Susan you were working on a few use cases?
15:07:45 <sue_neu> Susan: I will post a link
15:08:01 <sue_neu> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/56
15:08:41 <sue_neu> Paul: Let's take a minute to read through this
15:10:50 <sue_neu> JF: Do we know that Academic publishers may respond to more options, because typically are conservative
15:11:01 <Paul_B> q+
15:11:18 <sue_neu> Wolfgang: This could be a quesiton of economics, publishers may think it is too costly if there is no market
15:11:56 <sue_neu> John: I think that might be too declaritive, we may see more use in K-12
15:12:05 <sue_neu> q+
15:12:35 <wolfgang> s/declaritive/declarative/
15:13:00 <sue_neu> Bill: This issue may have a generational aspect. Old established faculty vs. newly minted PHD who grew up with Social Media
15:13:14 <sue_neu> Paul: True! Who says digital native anymore..
15:13:51 <JF> Q+
15:14:12 <sue_neu> I'm interested in the bullit "better way to express immersive culture" There may be a way in humanities or other disciplines that it becomes the preferred way.
15:14:17 <JF> acl p
15:14:21 <JF> ack p
15:14:26 <JF> ack s
15:15:09 <wolfgang> Sue: interviewee , academic librarian and project manager said: "If academic publishers knew they could disseminate this kind of work they would be willing to take more chances"
15:15:21 <sue_neu> Susan: That quote came from  an interviewee, who works in the open access academic space
15:15:44 <Paul_B> ack JF
15:16:36 <sue_neu> John: about better expression of culture, one use is language, like sample pronunciation. Maybe even STEM, learning to pronounce mullti-syllabic words...
15:16:56 <wolfgang> s/mullti-/multi/
15:17:15 <CharlesL> q+
15:17:15 <sue_neu> I remember a project from WGBH related to the Genome project that used a javascript library that let users access a timeline to access videos
15:17:28 <tzviya> q+ to say that this already exists in ScholPub
15:17:41 <sue_neu> John: I see something like that being integrated into ePub
15:17:44 <Paul_B> ack charles
15:18:50 <sue_neu> Charles: At the diagram center we put interactive content into a book on STEM, interactive SVG, physics simulations, you could move John Travolta's foot or hand, with sound clips...
15:18:55 <JF> FYI: http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/rd/hgp/hgp.html
15:18:59 <tzviya> ack CharlesL
15:19:24 <Paul_B> ack Tzviya
15:19:24 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that this already exists in ScholPub
15:19:34 <sue_neu> I can see with 3D and VR being put into these, even though EPUB includes javascript, we could show more
15:19:56 <Paul_B> Q+
15:20:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:21:22 <sue_neu> Tzviya: Do these things exist elsewhere, what are we trying to accomplish? Is the issue that a linked database, repository, isn't linked into a package? Is the problem that people don't have a system that binds these experiences togetgher...
15:21:55 <CharlesL> ack Paul_B
15:21:55 <sue_neu> Is the problem tooling? bookness? What are we trying to address here?
15:22:01 <CharlesL> q+
15:22:02 <Paul_B> ack Paul
15:22:11 <sue_neu> Paul: It could be that this is a case of education or promoting better adoption. It's not really clear what the obstacles are if it is not technical
15:22:47 <Paul_B> ack Bill
15:22:50 <sue_neu> Bill: I can give you examples of platforms that do exactly this. Fulcrum at the U of Michigan. U of Minnesota Manifold...
15:23:09 <sue_neu> In those cases, sometimes they are talking about articles or books...
15:23:32 <Paul_B> ack Charles
15:23:45 <sue_neu> I'm the guy who keeps saying "What do we want from the web?" Not necessarily what do we want from EPUB. People are already doing that, the web has this.
15:23:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:24:12 <tzviya> q+ to go back to the question of "bundles"
15:24:28 <sue_neu> Charles: If you are doing a research project, and you want to have a book at the end, you'd like it all bound together, a book if we want to call it...
15:24:39 <Paul_B> ack Bill
15:24:45 <sue_neu> So I can get a copy of that person's work
15:25:02 <sue_neu> Charles: websites go down
15:25:05 <Paul_B> ack Tzviya
15:25:06 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to go back to the question of "bundles"
15:25:45 <sue_neu> Tzviya: The common theme is bundle, I disagree that we waant to include a jupiter notebook, it would be too much data...
15:26:08 <sue_neu> It is similar to the use case I sent about higher education/courses
15:26:15 <sue_neu> q+
15:27:09 <JF> +1 to "manifest" files
15:27:20 <sue_neu> ...It's not necessarily a thing, but a place were we can find things. We worked on a manifest, a json-based manifest...
15:27:28 <JF> Q+ to ask if there is an intersection with those manifest files and scorm compliance?
15:27:36 <tzviya> use case: Higher Education no longer revolves around books but courses. Books (often in the EPUB format) are available to students, but the primary UI is courses. This means that pieces of text are offered to the student along with video, test questions, and other interactive elements. The thing called a “course” is not standardized. It might just be something that lists what the course contains. We might consider working with 1EdTech
15:27:36 <tzviya> (formerly IMS Global) to better document the needs.
15:27:53 <sue_neu> ... this could be very flexible. The current version is pretty straightforward
15:28:26 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/
15:28:35 <Paul_B> ack Sue
15:29:10 <sue_neu> Susan: I agree. There could be connection between the two use cases—
15:29:33 <JF> ack me
15:29:33 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask if there is an intersection with those manifest files and scorm compliance?
15:29:50 <sue_neu> John: Is there a relationship between courseware and SQURM course ware specification?
15:29:54 <Paul_B> ack JF
15:30:56 <sue_neu> Tzviya: What we're talking about here is the elements within the course, but not the course itself. Other course managements systems are in use. There would need to be a level of awareness with ed tech
15:31:41 <sue_neu> Paul: I feel we are ready to bring this to the publishing community group
15:31:43 <tzviya> present+
15:31:48 <tzviya> [tzviya joins]
15:31:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:32:23 <tzviya> s/[tzviya joins]//
15:32:26 <Paul_B> ack Bill
15:32:29 <sue_neu> Wolfgang: It would make sense, doing this, it would make sense to get some criteria, two or three aspects and write them down. To pin it down: is this solutions for epub? for the web?
15:32:37 <Paul_B> q+
15:33:20 <sue_neu> Bill: I think we are actually talking about two use cases. Susan articulated a need for non-text content. The other use case is talking about "course" rather than "book" They are related but not necessarily the same
15:33:27 <Paul_B> ack Paul
15:33:40 <sue_neu> .. we need to focus ont he course, not necessarily the book anymore.
15:34:12 <sue_neu> Bill: I think we should bring them both up at the same time since they are related
15:34:41 <sue_neu> Paul: we need to bring the course Use Case to a bit more maturity, get it into GIT.
15:35:27 <sue_neu> Paul: I think we need to present the non-text use case first. So we don't cross the wires so to speak
15:35:55 <wolfgang> q+
15:36:06 <Paul_B> ack Wolf
15:36:18 <sue_neu> Paul: the non-text use case may be a matter of education, dissemination. The course ware use case will require some technical changes
15:36:58 <Paul_B> q+
15:37:11 <sue_neu> Wolfgang: A big difference between the book and the course is that the book is to be consumed. A course is more directed to a type of learner with exercises and feedback...
15:37:45 <sue_neu> there is common ground but they are different. These are two issues with links between them.
15:38:18 <sue_neu> Paul: to Charles' point, there is an issue of permance here, too. A course is more ephemeral
15:38:24 <Paul_B> ack paul
15:38:25 <sue_neu> Bill: A book has to be citable.
15:38:28 <sue_neu> q+
15:39:10 <sue_neu> Paul: I think we are in agreement that we are ready to bring Susan's Use Case to the Publishing group in two weeks.
15:39:17 <Paul_B> ack sue
15:40:12 <sue_neu> Susan: an additional difference is that courses should be modifiable
15:40:39 <sue_neu> Paul: There is not a presumption of permance about a course.
15:40:53 <wolfgang> s/permance/permanence/
15:40:55 <sue_neu> Paul: any other topics or comments?
15:41:46 <sue_neu> We can call this a successfull meeting
15:42:06 <Paul_B> rrsagent, make logs public
15:42:19 <Paul_B> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:42:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-pcg-ed-minutes.html Paul_B
15:42:41 <Paul_B> zakim, end meeting
15:42:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been sue_neu, wolfgang, Bill_Kasdorf, JF, CharlesL, tzviya
15:42:43 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:42:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/22-pcg-ed-minutes.html Zakim
15:42:51 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Paul_B; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:43:08 <Paul_B> rrsagent end meeting
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