17:01:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
17:01:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-irc
17:01:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:22 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ora
17:01:30 <gtw> present+
17:01:34 <ora> meeting: RDF-star teleconference
17:01:34 <AZ> present+
17:01:39 <gkellogg> present+
17:01:40 <ora> chair: ora
17:01:53 <gkellogg> rrsagent, pointer?
17:01:53 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-irc#T17-01-53
17:02:27 <gkellogg> scribe+ gkellogg
17:03:35 <ora> https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
17:04:07 <gkellogg> topic: approve minutes
17:04:23 <ora> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:04:43 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:04:47 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
17:04:52 <olaf> present+
17:05:05 <gkellogg> ora: propose to accept minutes
17:05:06 <Dominik_T> present+
17:05:19 <AZ> +1
17:05:26 <enrico> +1
17:05:32 <Dominik_T> +1
17:05:42 <olaf> +1
17:05:57 <gkellogg> minutes accepted
17:06:24 <gkellogg> topic: Semantic Predication
17:06:36 <gkellogg> s/topic: Semantic Predication//
17:06:40 <AZ> q+
17:06:44 <gkellogg> topic: status updates
17:06:58 <ora> ack az
17:06:59 <gkellogg> q?
17:07:13 <gkellogg> az: can we talk about levels of conformance?
17:07:45 <gkellogg> zakim, who's here?
17:07:46 <Zakim> Present: enrico, AndyS, gkellogg, ktk, gtw, olaf, ora, rubensworks, pchampin, pfps, AZ, Dominik_T, Doerthe, TallTed
17:07:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see Dominik_T, olaf, RRSAgent, AZ, enrico, gkellogg, ora, AndyS, TallTed, ghurlbot, csarven, Tpt, Zakim, Timothe, ktk, gtw, rhiaro, agendabot, pchampin
17:08:16 <ora> scribe+
17:08:28 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/340418d1e8ee3647912699d8ecdbbd28af1d58c7/docs/text-direction.md
17:08:31 <ora> gkellogg: discussion on text direction
17:08:44 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
17:08:45 <ora> ... some activity from the I18N folks
17:09:22 <ora> ... proposing to extend abstract syntax to include text direction as a component of literals
17:09:32 <pfps> q+
17:09:40 <ora> ... this was an issue in JSON-LD
17:10:06 <ora> ... we now have the opportunity to update this in a more fundamental way
17:10:21 <ora> ack pfps
17:10:59 <gkellogg> pfps: I argue that RDF language text strings do not need text direction. It does not change the meaning of the string at all.
17:11:15 <gkellogg> ... It's only necessary for presentation.
17:11:30 <gkellogg> ... I'd argue against I18N group if they push back.
17:11:41 <gkellogg> ... RTL and LTR would compare as different things.
17:11:46 <gkellogg> q+
17:11:54 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:12:00 <AndyS> scribe+
17:12:16 <ora> q+
17:12:19 <ora> ack ora
17:12:19 <AndyS> gkellogg: not enough experience present - suggest a special meeting
17:12:36 <gkellogg> ora: Yes, agreed, that's a prudent way to go.
17:12:50 <gkellogg> ... The whole thing with text direction is sort of "black magic".
17:13:07 <gkellogg> ... I've faced this before and welcome more expertise.
17:13:30 <gkellogg> AndyS: I have a friend that speaks aribic, and he though it might be tough to accomplish.
17:13:44 <gkellogg> ... The way it interacts with URLs is.
17:13:48 <ora> s/aribic/arabic
17:14:10 <gkellogg> ... It's complicated when there are bits of text floating around.
17:14:27 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:14:29 <AndyS> s/aribic/arabic/
17:14:36 <Souri> present+
17:15:43 <gkellogg> pfps: I'd like to get it done early. It will change every document and piece of software.
17:15:57 <TallTed> regrets+
17:16:15 <gkellogg> ... It's a fundamental change to RDF; potentially just as fundamental as embedded triples.
17:16:23 <AndyS> q+
17:16:32 <gkellogg> ora: whether it's a change or not, it would be good to understand it.
17:16:45 <gkellogg> action: chairs to contact I18N group to start discussion.
17:16:52 <ghurlbot> Cannot create action. Validation failed. (Invalid user for this repository?)
17:17:46 <gkellogg> topic: Use Cases
17:17:50 <AndyS> q-
17:18:08 <gkellogg> pfps: I sent out an invite to join the task force. There are a number of people on the group.
17:18:24 <gkellogg> ... I sent out some messages on a proposed policy and some example use cases, without feedback.
17:18:25 <ora> q+
17:18:34 <ora> ack ora
17:18:35 <gkellogg> ... Either make comments, or produce your own.
17:18:46 <gkellogg> ... I'll put that in the issue.
17:18:50 <AndyS> q+
17:18:54 <gkellogg> q?
17:19:09 <ora> ack AndyS
17:19:19 <gkellogg> AndyS: Were the ones from the CG be carried over?
17:19:44 <gkellogg> pfps: I will take it upon myself to have someone reach out the the proposers to create real issues for the WG.
17:19:57 <gkellogg> AndyS: I'm worried it's putting barriers in the way.
17:20:26 <gkellogg> pfps: It needs to be more than a couple of sentences. A WG member could pick it up and continue the work.
17:20:44 <gkellogg> ... I'll make sure that every existing UC has an entry.
17:21:42 <gkellogg> topic: SPARQL docs
17:22:02 <gkellogg> AndyS: Does are passing checks, except for entailment, which requires an editor.
17:22:08 <gkellogg> pfps: I volunteer!
17:22:29 <gkellogg> ... I looked at it a while ago and expect it won't need much change.
17:23:32 <gkellogg> topic: Conformance
17:23:34 <olaf> pfps, find the use cases doc from the CG at https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/tree/main/UCR
17:24:39 <gkellogg> AZ: I proposed two options: one to say we have only one standard RDF 1.2, but define a weaker conformance that only requires we conform to slight updates to RDF accounting for errata and so forth, but exclude embedded triples.
17:24:49 <gkellogg> ... That might be "weak" or "classic" conformance.
17:24:52 <pfps> q+ to say that the non-embedded conformance should be called RDF 1.1
17:25:03 <gkellogg> ... Full conformance would take embedded triples into account.
17:25:25 <gkellogg> ... The other option is to say there are two versions of RDF, one with embedded triples, and the other without.
17:25:48 <gkellogg> ... Maybe "RDF-no-star" and "RDF". No weak or full, you just implement one or the other.
17:26:03 <ora> q+
17:26:08 <gkellogg> ... Like various OWL profiles, you implement a different specification.
17:26:30 <gkellogg> ... We can conform to one or the other.
17:26:33 <ora> ack pfps
17:26:33 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that the non-embedded conformance should be called RDF 1.1
17:26:45 <gkellogg> ... Or there's only standard, but two ways to conform.
17:27:06 <gkellogg> ... I'd say if we have a profile plus full RDF 1.2, we have two specifications.
17:27:28 <gkellogg> ... There are risks, but having a clearly identified profile would make it more clear what the conformance is.
17:27:48 <gkellogg> pfps: I'd suggest "weak" should be called RDF 1.1 or RDF 1.1.1.
17:27:49 <gkellogg> q?
17:28:13 <gkellogg> AZ: there are names for two types of conformances, and names for different profiles.
17:28:34 <gkellogg> ... I'd say that "weak" is a way of partially conforming, and RDF-no-star would be it's own thing.
17:28:42 <ora> ack ora
17:29:08 <gkellogg> pfps: If it's a profile than something that abides by it needs to be able to deal with embedded triples.
17:29:34 <gkellogg> AZ: when I say profile, I don't mean exactly the same thing as OWL. I'm using it in a more informal way.
17:29:48 <gkellogg> ... A sub-language of RDF 1.2 which does not include embedded triples.
17:30:08 <gkellogg> ora: Wouldn't RDF 1.1 conformance be something we already have.
17:30:32 <gkellogg> ... If we make the other non-star changes to the spec, it would be a possibility.
17:30:44 <gkellogg> ... Secondly, how has the OWL profile mechanism worked in practice?
17:31:04 <gkellogg> AZ: I'm not sure about all the details about OWL 2 profiles.
17:31:21 <Souri> q+
17:31:21 <gkellogg> ... The profiles mostly restrict reasoning.
17:31:51 <gkellogg> pfps: A number of OWL processors accept ontologies as RDF documents and complain if there's something they can't handle.
17:32:13 <ora> q+
17:32:19 <gkellogg> ... There are other processors which look at it and determine what profile it fits in, and then use that using an appropriate reasoner.
17:32:20 <ora> ack Souri
17:32:53 <gkellogg> pfps: In some cases, there is something out side of the system that determines if it's okay.
17:33:14 <gkellogg> Souri: In Oracle, we allow the user to specify what profile to use (-OL or -EL).
17:33:25 <ora> ack ora
17:33:54 <gkellogg> ora: I think the situation with OWL profiles is different, as there is no syntactic difference.
17:34:05 <gkellogg> ... In RDF-star, processors will see input they can't handle.
17:34:06 <gkellogg> q+
17:34:26 <Souri> s/-OL/-RL/
17:34:33 <gkellogg> pfps: There is and is not difference in OWL profiles when it comes to the native syntax.
17:35:08 <gkellogg> ... What happens is before the ontology is set to the reasoner there is a step to be sure the ontology fits.
17:35:35 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:36:40 <AndyS> q+
17:37:06 <ora> ack AndyS
17:37:31 <gkellogg> AndyS: Is there going to be one profile that _is_ RDF 1.2, and others that are subsets?
17:37:55 <gkellogg> ... If we have two with equal weight, there's a bifurcation. We should make 1.2 _the_ output.
17:38:16 <gkellogg> ... The charter is no changes that change RDF 1.1 entailments.
17:38:32 <gkellogg> ... No changes such that an RDF 1.1 processors would make different directions.
17:39:05 <gkellogg> ... Text Direction would make such a change. If we're touching quite a lot of bits and pieces, we can end up trying to parse the charter to see if we conform.
17:39:10 <ora> q+
17:39:23 <gkellogg> ... Every WG that has had a charter to not change something ultimately needs to make a judgement.
17:39:40 <ora> ack ora
17:39:45 <gkellogg> ... Sometimes things come up which are obvious improvements.
17:40:06 <gkellogg> ora: We have several things that are important. Backwards compatibility and bifurcation.
17:40:30 <gkellogg> ... Ideally, I'd like to see a new spec that everything must conform to, but that may be to idealistic.
17:40:44 <gkellogg> ... Some might choose one set of new features over another.
17:41:18 <gkellogg> ... We already have RDF 1.1 conformance. If we make small changes outside embedded triples, it should be included in "weak/classic" conformance.
17:41:55 <gkellogg> ... If we add things that substantially change things.
17:42:21 <gkellogg> AndyS: If you introduce a datatype that introduce things that processors are supposed to interpret, you've fundamentally changed things.
17:44:04 <gkellogg> ... Considering SKOS labels, if you introduce something that gets too naively passed through 1.1, things can get lost.
17:44:29 <gkellogg> ... We're also set up for a living specification that does allow new features to be introduced.
17:44:46 <gkellogg> ora: What's the way forward?
17:44:59 <gkellogg> ... there's obviously embedded triples or no embedded triples.
17:45:11 <pfps> q+ to say no levels
17:45:15 <gkellogg> ... I'm not sure what happens if we say there are a lot of new features and you can pick and choose.
17:45:31 <gkellogg> AndyS: The RDF 1.1 WG did make a big change by getting away with strings having no datatype.
17:45:40 <gkellogg> ... It went smoothly.
17:46:05 <gkellogg> ... Within the SPARQL WG, it was an issue.
17:46:19 <gkellogg> ... It gets in the way if you're too dogmatic about "no changes".
17:46:33 <pfps> q-
17:46:46 <gkellogg> ... Data is different though, as it stays around much longer.
17:47:19 <gkellogg> ora: Next step is to write an actual proposal. The conversation is useful, but a bit abstract.
17:48:05 <gkellogg> ... I'm seeing there's old, new, and embedded triples.
17:48:42 <gkellogg> topic: next steps
17:49:02 <pfps> +1 to defer - this discussion needs some time
17:49:03 <gkellogg> ora: I wanted to discuss Enrico's work, but think we should defer to next week.
17:49:28 <gkellogg> enrico: There's a good discussion on the mailing list.
17:49:30 <AndyS> +1 to a meeting specifically on Enrico's inout
17:49:32 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft mminutes
17:49:32 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mminutes', TallTed.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:49:36 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:49:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:49:45 <AndyS> s/inout/input/
17:49:48 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:50:10 <gkellogg> ora: In conformance, let's work on writing down something concrete.
17:50:23 <gkellogg> action: AZ to work on conformance proposal.
17:50:27 <ghurlbot> Cannot create action. Validation failed. (Invalid user for this repository?)
17:50:38 <TallTed> present-
17:50:45 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:50:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:51:39 <TallTed> pchampin - please note bug in minutes generation. I should not be listed as present, only as regrets
17:52:23 <TallTed> action: Antoine-Zimmermann to work on conformance proposal
17:52:25 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #23 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/23
17:52:57 <gkellogg> ora: Encrico will prepare an introduction for next week.
17:53:10 <AZ> s/Encrico/Enrico/
17:53:28 <gkellogg> ora: adjorned
17:53:57 <gkellogg> zakim, end meeting
17:53:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been enrico, AndyS, gkellogg, ktk, gtw, olaf, ora, rubensworks, pchampin, pfps, AZ, Dominik_T, Doerthe, TallTed, Souri
17:54:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:54:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
17:54:08 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gkellogg; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:54:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:54:11 <gkellogg> zakim, draft minutes
17:54:15 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
17:54:17 <AndyS> rrsagent, please excuse us
17:54:17 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
17:54:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chairs to contact I18N group to start discussion. [1]
17:54:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-irc#T17-16-45
17:54:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AZ to work on conformance proposal. [2]
17:54:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-irc#T17-50-23
17:54:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Antoine-Zimmermann to work on conformance proposal [3]
17:54:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/02/16-rdf-star-irc#T17-52-23