Meeting minutes
<pkra> but struggling to find the passcode.
zakim next agendum
New Issue Triage
#1870
how to write UA tests
for child/parent roles
is a11y child, must ingnore intervening elements
anybody to take a look?
scottO: already there
jamesn: nuance is there
New PR Triage
scottO: talked about #1871 last meeting
accname #187
jcraig running late
matt, will review PR
issue #1720 is closed
values for textbox/searchbox is refered to in accName
so fix in accname and refer to it
spectranaut: language is not clear
matt will look at PR
spectranaut: adding comment to pull 1871
for matt to review
spectranaut: back to accname PR 187
completion steps were disconnected from algo, reviewers?
james n will review
Deep Dive planning
jcriag request a DD on Define concept of minimum role
scottO: wait for him
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2023F2F/?
Face to Face meeting, Seattle is the winner
spectranaut: next, figure out hosting
jamesn: can double check to make sure I can travel then get hosting
unless others volunteer
don't book anything yet
aaron will do it remotely
it is on the 3rd and 4th of may
Readme should document expectations of for New PR template and New Issue template (order, optionality, etc.)
from jcraig
move on
Draft: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec
spectranaut: on agenda because, jcraig added it
all his comments are resolved
spectranaut: anything to discuss?
sarah_higley: it would be better if james were here
matt, unclear on fundamentals in this PR, sarah to you prefer a conversation about stuff that shouldn't be there
sarah_higley: discussion has moved to Pr
, another deep dive?
<Jem> Matt's comment - https://
matt, thinking about, if element is not focusable, aria actions is on it, what is the expected AT behavior?
not focused, not hovered ... gaping hole in privacy, a lot of questions related to timing and events
so UA screen reader knows actions are available
sarah_higley: don't want to be too specific
jcraig describes gmail buttons that show on focus
dialog being problematic ...
close button in dialog, aria-actions doesn't hurt it
matt, need to talk about all use cases
situation like NVDA announing clickable all over the page
sarah_higley: should not propogate to child elemements
sarah_higley: dialog that can get focus
matt, can write out a specific list of questions
might be deep dive
jcraig: implementation behavior in AT
matt, affect authoring requirements, craft AT expectation now
matt, propose them in ARIA AT
massive implication for authors
<Jem> At APG meeting this week, we also talked about the implication of aria-action for Tree example
what the AT behavior is when the element that has actions is not focusable
jcraig: number of places where its prohibited
sarah listed it
generics, definition
goal is to have it allowed on nameable elements
sarah_higley: not opposed to allowing it on regions
resizable regions
region is focusable or buttons
sarah_higley: we can add an author requirement
that anything with aria-actions has to take keyboard or aria-activedescendant focus
aaron, agreen on non spec document as a north star for ATs
<Jem> +100 to Aaron
or will end up with vast inconsistency between implementations
<Jem> like understanding document for WCAG 2.2
apple doesn't have to worry about that
push for some kind of effort, document to figure how to work with and pay AT's
matt, like to have realistic APG examples
for which we can pay for AT tests
examples need to push boundaries
jcraig: not having AT requirements that don't consider new modalities
so many different modalities occurring and don't want to be restricted
scottO: need to be able to tell AT what needs to happen
jcraig: we are allowed to have it in a separate document
<Jem> I think acceptance and adoption are differnt concept.
jamesn: we talked last week about having AT notes within the spec
Aaron, aria-detials, one thing that was helpful, treating it as a collaoration with AT's
they want to have a conversation
doesn't need to be a spec
they need to get paid
a living document is better
aria-actions will be very useful in an editor
highlighted area, virtual buffer, rich text editing, different modalities
matt, alternatives to focus, like a caret
fieldset or group with name, only hear info as you enter it
navigate with focus or caret
avoids repitition
of the 'closed item'
matt, if a word is misspelled, I want to talk to AT devs about that
so many announcements can't tell whats in the document
spectranaut: sarah do you have examples?
<Jem> ARIA example with aria-action will be great for the discussion!
sarah_higley: have a page of examples, but not broad enough
examples on immediately actionable items
does aria-details read once for the element that has it?
aaron: don't think we did if for focus
matt, may have done it whether you expected it or not
matt, we don't have consistency
voiceover on ios mixes feedback, temporal announcement, no thing you can move to in buffer
matt, would advocate for changes in how things are rendered
matt, impact and amount of people
Aaron: you pay them they will implement something that is not refined
chicken and egg, authors don't use them until it works well
matt: do we need a Deep Dive?
sarah_higley: agree we should have a non official doc and shop it to AT vendors
Aaron, ask them to share stuff
they said that's great, have the same keystrokes
sarah_higley: makes sense
sarah_higley: AT should behave like how aria-details work?
Aaron, later we can provide better UX for actions
sarah_higley: details, does it announce on entering a role?
Aaron, created a google doc
can add comments
things got sorted into priorities
snowball idea, called it a brainstorming doc
sarah_higley: I'd like to see it
Jem: examples?
aaron, it links to them
Aaron, end to end adoption strategy
we have to think about it
matt. like drag and drop and aria-relevant
Aaron, examples where no one worked with AT vendors
jcraig: not fair comparision
just a bad implemntation in HTML (drag and drop)
jcraig: we have an existing implementations that other ATs are aware of
jcraig: not same scenario as other examples
Aaron, will be a problem if we don't have an organization to
if no end to end strategy no one will be happy
matt, the use case list has to be solid
if we allow things ih the spec
that isn't in the use cases
we will run into problems
APG puts gaurdrails
jcraig: authors have good ideas
remove author must nots if we can
siri: using aria-actions
<aaronlev> I added a link to the doc to the issue (as opposed to the PR)
what is the difference between aria-actions and aria-detials?
if using ID, how can we use it for primary actions?
how is presente to visual users for color alone issues
<jcraig> Example of Siri's question: w3c/
sarah_higley: not a problem I've seen show up
<jcraig> (screen shot of gmail)
pin a tree, listbox option
if using keyboard, author must expose actions
jcraig: gmail actions, are the visible buttons on mouseover
spectranaut: deep dive next week on known role?
jcraig: can do 9:30 to 10am next week or 3/2
Aaron will probably need you the whole time
<spectranaut> deep dive to discuss: w3c/
<Jem> I wonder about deep dive meeting date for aria-action
topic 'concepts of minimum role'
<Jem> btw, It was an eye opening discussion to hear about whole ecosystem of AT and ARIA Spec.
jcraig, 4pm pacific on t
Thursdays
spectranaut: on 2/16 would we disuss aria-actions?
sarah_higley: will be out the first few weeks in march
matt, theres a lot we can do async
<Jem> or in person meeting at Seatle?
if we need a DD on 2/23 we can do it