14:53:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pcg-ed
14:53:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-pcg-ed-irc
14:56:28 <pbelfanti> zakim, start meeting
14:56:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:56:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pbelfanti
14:57:06 <pbelfanti> Meeting: Publishing Community Group, Education Task Force Telecon
14:57:16 <pbelfanti> Date: 08 February 2023
14:57:28 <pbelfanti> Chair: Paul Belfanti
15:01:23 <jameY> jameY has joined #pcg-ed
15:01:26 <jameY> present+
15:03:01 <JF> JF has joined #pcg-ed
15:03:06 <JF> Present+
15:03:08 <pbelfanti> present+
15:03:10 <JF> agenda?
15:03:16 <wolfgang> present+
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15:05:07 <sue-neu> present+
15:05:13 <pbelfanti> scribenick: sue-neu
15:06:07 <pbelfanti> agenda+
15:06:22 <sue-neu> pbelfanti two use cases we discussed
15:08:21 <sue-neu> ...Susan do you have any on that?
15:08:38 <wolfgang> q+
15:09:35 <pbelfanti> q+
15:09:43 <sue-neu> Paul: I think part of the challenge there is how publishered will handle that kind of content
15:09:52 <pbelfanti> ack wolfgang
15:10:16 <JF> Q+
15:10:42 <pbelfanti> ack pbelfanti
15:10:58 <sue-neu> Wolfgang: When you say publishing do you mean an epub, print book or website. In my estimation a website would be best. You could use javascript and other existing web technologies and self-publish
15:11:34 <sue-neu> Paul: Is there some requirement, or real life practicality in being able to publish under the umbrella of an organization that validates/legitimizes the publications
15:11:40 <sue-neu> q+
15:11:50 <jameY> q+
15:11:51 <pbelfanti> ack JF
15:12:14 <sue-neu> JF I'd like to understand what we are talking about annotations, are these knock-on additions to an existing book...
15:13:09 <sue-neu> Wolfgang mentioned security issues with external resources, is current metadata already doing this? Where would [insert tech name here] that go?...
15:13:28 <sue-neu> The use case that Susan has brought forward is that annotation?
15:13:32 <pbelfanti> ack sue-neu
15:14:54 <pbelfanti> q+
15:15:07 <pbelfanti> ack jameY
15:16:01 <pbelfanti> ack pbelfanti
15:16:17 <sue-neu> James traditional publishers like our books. An interactive game, the best we could do is add it to courseware. This will be a wider educational issue. It will probably be solved by a younger upstart company
15:17:18 <sue-neu> Paul we have this tension between traditional publishing that has legitimacy, and someone doing something new and exciting. I think you are right, James, there is some publisher who will emerge and say
15:18:03 <sue-neu> ...traditional publishers aren't getting this done, and with the quality of things  they publish will achieve legitimacy
15:18:45 <sue-neu> Paul: Susan, it looks like this is a fertile area for discussion, please make a use case for the next meeting
15:18:52 <pbelfanti> Higher Education no longer revolves around books but courses. Books (often in the EPUB format) are available to students, but the primary UI is courses. This means that pieces of text are offered to the student along with video, test questions, and other interactive elements. The thing called a “course” is not standardized. It might just be something that lists what the course contains. We might consider working with 1EdTech (formerly I[CUT]
15:19:10 <sue-neu> Paul: The next use case we have to discuss is from Tzviya and is in rough shape
15:19:41 <sue-neu> [text-of-Tzviyas-uc]
15:20:00 <wolfgang> q+
15:20:12 <pbelfanti> ack wolfgang
15:20:45 <JF> Q+
15:21:02 <pbelfanti> q+
15:21:36 <pbelfanti> ack JF
15:21:39 <sue-neu> Wolfgang: I have consulted about information archetecture standards [stands] Epub is basically for reading, not interacting. We can begin with basic epub and expand to more interactive content with javascript and other tools
15:22:04 <jameY> q+
15:23:03 <sue-neu> JF: If the problem is integrating ebooks into courseware, one of the things that courseware is looking for SQUARM compliant. Are we looking to make ebooks compliant so that they can be used in courseware?
15:23:19 <wolfgang> s/SQUARM/SCORM/
15:23:29 <sue-neu> JF: The first use case that Susan brought looks like a policy, not a technology problem
15:24:44 <sue-neu> Paul: We are looking at things outside the EPUB model. That's where courseware comes in. Courseware is usually broken into pieces. There is often a link to snippets for review. I guess what we are talking about is that there are clear guidelines
15:24:59 <wolfgang> s/I[CUT]/IMS Global/
15:25:08 <sue-neu> Paul: What are the more definitive and ideal standards?
15:25:51 <sue-neu> Paul: The capabilities exist. Most publishers I've worked for have their own white label standards/platforms but usually end up integrating with an institution
15:26:20 <sue-neu> Paul: that is usually a painful process, we are trying to come up with standards to make that better
15:26:44 <jameY> q-
15:27:19 <pbelfanti> ack pbelfanti
15:27:32 <sue-neu> ... the purpose of this task force is to surface problems that will allow us to improve the educational experience accross the web. If these issues have enough "legs" it can be presented to the publishing group as a whole...
15:27:54 <sue-neu> and eventually floated up to other groups in the W3C
15:28:23 <pbelfanti> q+
15:28:52 <sue-neu> JF: Thank you for the overview. Having the problem clearly defined is important...
15:29:36 <sue-neu> If we are talking about derivative work, we could use existing metadata to tie different projects together
15:30:00 <sue-neu> JF: From my perspective, I am looking at technology solutions
15:30:44 <sue-neu> Paul: The purpose of this task force, a sub group of the Publishing Community group— is to try to answer "What does Education want from the web"...
15:31:38 <sue-neu> That can mean a couple of things, there is a problem, or an aspiration. Between those two buckets, we are trying to find the gaps. We are not limited to epub, but could address publishing in general...
15:32:21 <sue-neu> In some cases, these use cases may go nowhere. In some cases it may turn out there is a solution that is not well known and documenting or socializing will solve it...
15:32:46 <sue-neu> In some cases there is an aspiration that may be best forwarded to another working group within the w3c
15:32:49 <sue-neu> q+
15:32:56 <pbelfanti> ack pbelfanti
15:33:24 <pbelfanti> ack sue-neu
15:34:18 <pbelfanti> q+ pbelfanti
15:36:21 <sue-neu> JF: This looks like a two pronged project- one— getting authority for self-published works— and that can be added to the metadata
15:36:49 <sue-neu> JF: In epub the accessibility space has room for certification...
15:37:51 <sue-neu> all of the information for accessibility is captured in metadata. Do we have metadata mechanism for proving that a work has been reviewed by an authority?
15:39:15 <pbelfanti> ack pbelfanti
15:39:56 <sue-neu> sue-neu: I wasn't thinking about adding legitimacy to self-published works, but rather developing the technologies for traditional academic publishers to publish non-traditional projects under their own imprint
15:40:38 <sue-neu> Paul: At the core of the use case is that current technology does not support all the types of alternative projects
15:41:40 <sue-neu> JF: We can already express that kind of information and put that information in the metadata. It can be expressed to library systems. Is the issue that library systems aren't sophisticated enough to capture the metadata
15:42:12 <sue-neu> JF: I know other groups are working on that. The solution is that the information is bound to the publication by the metadata
15:43:41 <sue-neu> Paul: You're bringing up valid points, John. What I hear is that this librarian is expressing that there are obstacles perceived. You may be right, perhaps the solution already exists. We need to dig further into the use cases to be sure this is a reall probelm
15:43:50 <sue-neu> q+
15:43:55 <JF> Q+
15:44:04 <wolfgang> s/reall probelm/real problem/
15:44:43 <sue-neu> Paul: In some cases, scholarly publishing doesn't have what they need to publish in a peer-reviewed environment.
15:46:33 <sue-neu> Sue-neu: I didn't present a complete use case but was hoping to get the groups help finding the user for the use case
15:47:30 <sue-neu> JF: You have at least two use cases here, the scholar and the press. Who are the players in this case? We need to identify if this is a technology problem or a social/communication problem?...
15:48:06 <sue-neu> the biggest problem in the accessibility space is that we have the capabilites but people don't know what they don't know...
15:49:03 <wolfgang> q+
15:49:06 <sue-neu> At the end of the day, we have technology solutions for a lot of these problems. But to Wolfgang's point, sometimes there are external concerns like privacy
15:49:18 <sue-neu> q-
15:49:25 <JF> ack me
15:49:30 <pbelfanti> ack wolfgang
15:50:11 <sue-neu> Wolfgang: It might also be a question of tooling and costs. There is a lot of technology out there. If you are a publisher and only get one or two of these special dissertations a year...
15:50:35 <sue-neu> You need the expertise, you need to build up a line of production. You might have it, you might not.
15:51:16 <JF> @wolfgang I would classify all of your questions/comments as "Policy" concerns
15:51:20 <sue-neu> ... but you incur a cost to tool up. How many will I sell? These are hard economic facts. If 95% of those publications don't involve that, why should I do it?
15:52:13 <sue-neu> Paul: those could be policy concerns, but they could have a capability component
15:53:03 <sue-neu> JF: We have already done this with the accessibility group— do I really need to do this?
15:53:48 <sue-neu> JF: Small Mom & Pop publishers should have some kind of expert, large publishers are likely to have people in house.
15:54:15 <sue-neu> JF: Maybe we should start laying out all of the problems as "policy" or "technology" problems
15:55:44 <JF> john@foliot.ca
15:56:10 <sue-neu> Paul: This has been a good discussion. We have gotten some input and guidance on the use cases
15:57:17 <pbelfanti> rrsagent, make logs public
15:57:29 <pbelfanti> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-pcg-ed-minutes.html pbelfanti
15:57:37 <sue-neu> s /publishered /publishers
15:59:09 <pbelfanti> zakim, end meeting
15:59:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jameY, JF, pbelfanti, wolfgang, sue-neu
15:59:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/08-pcg-ed-minutes.html Zakim
15:59:19 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pbelfanti; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:59:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pcg-ed
15:59:55 <pbelfanti> rrsagent, excused
15:59:55 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'excused', pbelfanti.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:24 <pbelfanti> rrs agent, end meeting
16:01:47 <pbelfanti> msg RRSAgent help