14:52:36 RRSAgent has joined #me 14:52:40 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-irc 14:52:46 meeting: Media and Entertainment IG 14:54:15 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2023Feb/0004.html 14:54:17 cpn has joined #me 14:56:41 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, John_Riviello 14:59:08 tidoust has joined #me 14:59:46 Ohmata has joined #me 15:00:38 ChrisLorenzo has joined #me 15:00:41 present+ Chris_Needham, Hisayuki_Ohmata, Kinji_Matsumura, Ryo_Yasuoka 15:00:49 present+ Francois_Daoust 15:01:01 present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 15:01:18 present+ Chris_Lorenzo 15:01:30 nigel has joined #me 15:02:17 igarashi has joined #me 15:02:48 present+ 15:03:03 present+ Piers_O'Hanlon 15:03:13 present+ Nigel_Megitt 15:03:37 present+ Andreas_Tai 15:03:42 rrsagent, make log public 15:03:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:04:20 chair: Chris_Needham, Chris_Lorenzo, Tatsuya_Igarashi 15:04:47 scribe: nigel 15:05:22 cpn: Welcome, great to see you all for this first meeting of 2023. 15:05:31 .. Too late for Happy New Year? HNY anyway! 15:05:34 .. Agenda for today. 15:05:41 .. What we're doing in this group. 15:05:56 .. We're going through Rechartering, approaching the end of our 2 year Charter period. 15:05:58 .. Looking ahead, 15:06:03 .. what do we want to focus on? 15:06:11 .. What is working well, what would we change? etc 15:06:18 .. Before that, updates from the Media WG. 15:06:26 .. Coincidentally also rechartering. 15:06:36 .. There'll be a meeting on that next week, 14th Feb, 15:06:47 .. with a similar exercise, looking at deliverables, status, timelines, scope. 15:06:52 .. The scope will change a bit. 15:07:02 .. Most significant: there is a new Audio Focus API. 15:07:15 i/Welcome,/topic: Welcome/ 15:07:15 .. The Media WG has agreed to adopt as a deliverable, as a WIP standard. 15:07:25 .. The goal of the Audio Focus API is to allow websites to 15:07:29 nhk-ryo has joined #me 15:07:35 .. declare and interact with the media playback engine in the system for audio, 15:07:39 i/The Media WG has/topic: Media WG Updates/ 15:07:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:07:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:07:52 .. so that they can control how audio from a browser is mixed with audio from other applications 15:07:52 .. on the system. 15:08:01 .. For example, you're playing music and a tab wants to play a notification sound: 15:08:16 .. How are those balanced? Does one stop temporarily awaiting completion of the other? 15:08:22 .. Do they play at the same time as each other? 15:08:37 .. Most relevant on desktop and mobile, not clear how it works in a TV environment. 15:08:41 .. Work just getting started. 15:09:08 .. Initial explainer linked in the slides here 15:09:17 Slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UvmmcXXqTW74RjhXCm2EpWQ6Y47X-NpJDBf-APao_I8/edit 15:09:44 [Slide 3] 15:09:51 .. Discussion around the naming - the API in the explainer uses "audio session" whereas 15:09:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:09:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:10:01 .. the GitHub repo title is "audio focus" so they're inconsistent 15:10:23 .. Maybe comes from the underlying native APIs - iOS has "AV session", Android "Audio Focus API" that 15:10:27 .. does a similar job. 15:10:44 .. The easiest thing is probably to align to "Audio Session API" but risks confusion with the 15:10:56 .. "Media Session API" which does a different job to do with controlling playback. 15:11:03 .. Please look, raise issues and questions. 15:11:09 -> https://github.com/w3c/audio-focus/blob/main/explainer.md explainer.md 15:11:11 .. Next, again in Media WG. 15:11:27 .. There was a liaison statement from ITU-T SG16 15:11:45 .. They wanted to enquire about our plans for WebCodecs API and to tell us about H.266 15:12:01 .. or "VVC" to see if there would be interest in adding a Web Codecs support via the registry of codecs, 15:12:11 -> https://github.com/w3c/media-wg/blob/main/liaisons/2022-10-28-itu-t-sg16.md Media WG's reply to the Liaison statement from SG16 15:12:20 .. and the WG replied to say that in principle they would support adding the registration 15:12:32 .. but there would need to be interest from the browser vendors to implement and expose it. 15:12:34 present+ Gary_Katsevman, jad 15:12:49 .. If there are implementations of VVC support in browsers or through a compatible JS or WASM library 15:12:57 .. that would be an acceptable route for adding the registration. 15:13:08 .. I don't know what happens next, if they want to develop it. 15:13:12 s|Slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UvmmcXXqTW74RjhXCm2EpWQ6Y47X-NpJDBf-APao_I8/edit|Slideset: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2023Feb/att-0000/Media___Entertainment_IG_Meeting_7_Feb_2022.pdf 15:13:12 present+ Jad_Esber 15:13:15 present- jad 15:13:16 .. We haven't had any further dialog with the ITU-T group 15:13:25 .. That was just to give an update on the recent changes in the WG. 15:13:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:13:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:13:39 .. The Charter for the WG expires end of May this year. 15:13:44 .. Expecting to go into rechartering with Audio Focus API as a deliverable, 15:13:53 .. and updating the timelines for the other specifications. 15:14:01 .. The main concern we have is with the EME spec, which was in charter, 15:14:10 .. and haven't done any work on the spec itself. 15:14:14 .. Not got to FPWD of EME v2. 15:14:25 .. Something that if we can prioritise ahead of rechartering, would help. 15:14:36 .. Otherwise the AC may have concern about chartering to do work that we're not doing, 15:14:45 .. particularly given sensitivities about EME. 15:14:48 .. Thoughts or questions? 15:15:05 Topic: MEIG Rechartering 15:15:17 i/Topic/group: [no thoughts or questions] 15:15:23 [slide 4] 15:15:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:15:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:15:33 cpn: The Charter period ends 31st April this year. 15:15:40 .. We have a couple of options of what to do if we want to propose continuing as we are. 15:15:51 .. We can prepare an updated draft and send for review, and to the AC. 15:15:58 i|The Charter|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/06/me-ig-charter.html Current Charter| 15:16:01 .. This raises questions about what we're actually doing here and what activities 15:16:09 .. we want to focus on and prioritise. 15:16:23 .. It's really helpful and good to have all of you here as participants. 15:16:34 .. Do we need to widen participation to bring in other voices? 15:16:57 .. I'm asking myself if having this as an IG, open to W3C members, is the right structure. 15:17:11 .. Should we consider being a Community Group, open to other potential contributors who are not 15:17:16 .. W3C members? 15:17:25 .. More practically, we have had a pattern of running monthly meetings, 15:17:32 .. and each one tries to focus on a particular topic. 15:17:46 .. Speaking personally, I'm finding it harder to organise them because it is 15:17:54 .. not always clear what we should be talking about. 15:18:04 .. It is not always clear what the next steps should be. 15:18:16 .. So I'm very much open to suggestions and your thoughts and feedback on all of this. 15:18:23 .. Brief review of previous Charter period: 15:18:41 [Slide 5] 15:18:41 .. We had an activity looking at Media Production, organised a workshop, with Pierre very active 15:18:45 .. in pulling that together. 15:18:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:18:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:18:59 .. Didn't really translate into more of an ongoing piece of work. 15:19:03 .. Should we refocus to do something with that? 15:19:17 .. Media Timed Events activity and DataCue API, which we need to make decisions about. 15:19:22 .. Has that run its useful course? 15:19:31 .. Should the DataCue API itself be pursued? 15:19:45 .. Although it's not really an IG thing, we've moved it into the Incubator Group. 15:19:54 .. I'm uncertain about the level of support for standardising it. 15:20:06 .. We had a meeting to introduce the content provenance work happening elsewhere. 15:20:18 .. Again, no particular follow-up actions for us, interesting nevertheless. 15:20:33 .. Collaboration with DASH-IF and WebRTC for low latency experience. 15:20:52 .. Consumer electronics, with presentations about miniApps, lightning.js, and presentations from 15:20:55 present+ Ewan_Roycroft 15:21:03 .. NHK and BBC about how they approach app development. 15:21:10 .. And our CTA Wave collaboration. 15:21:17 .. Before that, previous Charter period: 15:21:40 .. Looked at Media WG deliverables as well as WoT, Multicast, etc 15:21:53 i|Before|[slide 6]| 15:21:54 .. A way to think about previous activities to help us think about what to do next. 15:21:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:21:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:22:03 .. Potential activies 15:22:19 [slide 7] 15:22:19 .. Media Production: how do you follow up and make browser based video editing tools? 15:22:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:22:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:23:13 .. All the different considerations of applying vision processing on content, the WebCodecs API, 15:23:13 .. and how all the pieces fit together. Potentially an activity for us if there's participant interest. 15:23:13 .. Most recently we've been looking at the CE/TV app development, where 15:23:27 .. I am slightly uncertain as to specifically what we ought to do next. 15:23:38 .. We started to collate all of the input received so far. 15:23:51 .. Perhaps an exercise to identify any standards gaps, adoption gaps etc. 15:24:08 .. For each item, what is the most useful next step? 15:24:21 .. A number of media-related W3C groups: the IG as a hub for those is useful. 15:24:29 .. Media WG, Timed Text WG, others. 15:24:43 .. What should be our communications approach? How best to interact with them? 15:24:57 .. Similar question around the media-related external SDOs. 15:25:13 .. Would it be beneficial to us to have more direct, maybe joint, meetings with those groups I've listed. 15:25:30 .. To share the potential collaborations or requirements that are currently unmet 15:25:37 .. that would be useful to share. 15:26:01 scribe+ cpn 15:26:13 q+ 15:26:17 Chris: Any thoughts or comments? 15:26:19 ack John 15:26:52 JohnRiv: On the topic of IG vs CG, if we wanted to have a CG instead, we'd want to talk to people who don't join because it's an IG 15:27:22 ... The may not join the CG either. We should confirm that before going that route 15:27:51 q+ to ask about W3C strategy and our role there 15:27:54 s/The may/They may/ 15:28:10 Chris: For me, it's about defining what we want to work on an build some participation around those topics 15:28:14 ack Nigel 15:28:14 nigel, you wanted to ask about W3C strategy and our role there 15:28:40 Nigel: One thing I've observed elsewhere in W3C is a renewed push to think about the strategy of W3C and what it works on 15:29:06 ... With the new legal structure. Should it be explicitly in scope of this group to help guide strategy for media proposals? 15:29:17 q+ 15:29:20 ... Could be reviewing proposed charters. Should we consider ourselves to do that? 15:29:24 ack tid 15:29:33 q+ 15:29:49 Francois: This is basically how we present the IG usually, as a steering committee for media activities in W3C 15:30:11 ... That's the theory, but in practice the IG hasn't really taken that role. But makes sense to have it in the charter 15:30:44 Nigel: I didn't check the Charter before I asked! 15:30:56 Francois: I didn't check before I answered! 15:31:16 cpn: There's something interesting there - we could push so that there's an expectatoin 15:31:19 .. of our review. 15:31:29 s/expectatoin/expectation 15:31:36 ack kaz 15:31:45 kaz: I agree with Chris Needham's point. 15:31:55 .. Even though W3C has changed the mechanism, we ourselves 15:32:04 .. can think about what we want and expect ourselves first, 15:32:13 [Now looking at the charter, I see, for instance: "Suggesting to existing Working Groups that they include particular topics in their scope as appropriate" and "Tracking and review of media-related deliverables developed by other W3C groups, and reporting of issues as appropriate" in Success criteria] 15:32:15 .. and think about W3C's strategy separately. 15:32:27 .. W3C is reorganising the industry work too. 15:32:34 .. I can talk to PLH about the potential impact. 15:32:45 .. As a starting point we should think about what we want first, as Chris Needham proposed. 15:33:02 .. If by chance becoming a CG would be even more productive, we might want to think about that possibility. 15:33:13 .. We need to think about who would join which kind of discussion, in what style. 15:33:14 q+ 15:33:20 atai has joined #me 15:33:26 .. We still have a few more months - extension is possible as well. 15:33:33 .. Let's start discussing our expectation. 15:33:35 q? 15:33:37 Nigel: 15:33:40 ack nigel 15:33:49 s/Nigel:// 15:34:05 Nigel: There's an important structural point about the IG vs CG discussion, related to W3C strategy. 15:34:29 ... I'm not sure it's normal to have a strategy influencing group as a CG, so it has non member input 15:35:00 ... These two questions about IG vs CG and strategy setting vs strategy observing are interrated, but unsure how 15:35:10 s/interrated/inter-related 15:35:23 cpn: John's point resonates with me. I'm thinking about how to bring more voices 15:35:34 .. and if the membership requirement is a barrier to that, it's something to consider. 15:35:44 .. If in practice it is not, then I see no reason particularly to change. 15:35:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:35:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:36:03 .. One interesting thing is that at the last TPAC we had the meeting organised by Dolby 15:36:12 .. where they have essentially organised a new CG, the Audio Video Formats CG, 15:36:24 .. and that really was a way for them to get around their own IPR constraints or concerns. 15:36:40 .. Essentially it's scoped like the IG is scoped - doesn't produce specifications, can 15:36:55 .. only send work to WGs or create incubations, just like the IG, 15:37:04 .. but it's a structure they were comfortable working under. 15:37:11 .. That group has not really got started. 15:37:24 .. I've been talking to them off-line to try to help them get started. 15:37:37 .. There are things people want to do and talk about. 15:37:44 .. I don't know specifically what they want to propose. 15:37:53 .. For whatever reason the IG wasn't quite the right structure for them. 15:38:14 .. It may be that over time Dolby will become a member and we can essentially merge everything back 15:38:20 .. into one place, but that's perhaps a way off. 15:39:30 .. To summarise, potentially picking up the browser based video editing is a possibility 15:39:41 .. if there are a small number of people wanting to contribute. 15:40:11 .. Moving to Consumer Product Application development... 15:40:23 [slide 8] 15:40:39 cpn: There's a link through to a document. 15:40:48 .. The general question is: what's the most useful thing for us to do next? 15:40:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:40:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:41:32 .. Is it that we are identifying gaps that need new standards? 15:41:32 .. Is it around, as Chris has advocated in previous meetings, moving TV application development 15:41:32 .. to a place where it is more like mobile app development in terms of the developer experience 15:41:32 .. and the sets of technologies you can use? 15:41:38 .. Is there something around testing and conformance for us to look at? 15:41:53 .. With this my sense is that it would be helpful to have more input from app developers 15:42:05 .. to see how they are seeing this and the issues that they're particularly seeing. 15:42:21 .. Part of that is if we want to go to manufacturers to ask for some particular capabilities 15:42:36 .. in the next generation of embedded browsers, then there's a consensus view of what that looks like 15:42:42 .. coming from application developers. 15:43:04 .. The thing I've seen in WAVE most recently is around performance, which we've discussed too. 15:43:16 .. I'm looking forward to seeing where they get to in terms of gathering input. 15:43:31 .. That would be really useful for us to make performance related improvements. 15:43:42 .. Figuring out what improvements we need across devices. 15:44:11 .. I wrote this unofficial document to collate everything we've heard into one place. 15:44:11 i|Moving to Consumer|topic: Application Development for Consumer Products| 15:44:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:44:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:44:23 .. Notes from previous meetings - all different aspects. 15:44:37 s/.. The thing/cpn: The thing 15:45:05 .. Given we've seen e.g. Amazon Prime adopting WASM for performance and control 15:45:15 .. so there's less dependency on higher level browser features. 15:45:32 -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eiHVKiBMwss7YFiPdXRw80xRemks7yJJ21KC3dbhIHA/edit# Draft document to collect issues 15:45:34 .. Application launch, Device compatibility, etc: for each thing, what is actionable for us? 15:45:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:45:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:45:57 .. Is it something we need to influence in terms of standardisation, or adoption? 15:46:00 .. Does it need improved conformance testing? 15:46:15 .. If there's interest amongst all of you then I'm happy that we have those conversations. 15:46:17 piers has joined #me 15:46:22 .. I'd like to capture your input and views. 15:46:37 .. Take each of these things, look at them a bit more closely: what more specifically should the outcome be? 15:46:44 .. We've shared potential problem areas. 15:46:53 .. What do we want to progress from those things? 15:46:53 q+ 15:46:57 ack Joh 15:47:15 JohnRiv: To talk to what we've discussed in WAVE in the last couple of months, 15:47:21 .. we've been looking at performance. 15:47:36 ... We've seen streaming providers move towards more native than web applications 15:47:47 ... We have two surveys, one for CE manufacturers, one for app developers 15:47:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:47:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 15:48:02 ... For manufacturers, is supporting these native apps an issue? 15:48:06 ... For developers, is performance an issue? 15:48:16 ... And for both groups, would a common web based platform be helpful? 15:48:56 ... If so, what are your thoughts? We're planning to send a survey, this week. We're collecting contact names, so if you're interested, please let me know 15:49:23 ... Want to make sure we're working towards the right long term goal, for the web on TV and embedded devices 15:49:42 Chris: We look forward to the outcome of that feedback 15:49:55 john_riviello@comcast.com - email me if you are interested in receiving the survey from WAVE 15:50:12 q+ 15:50:35 ack k 15:50:36 ack k 15:53:10 Chris: Does anyone think we shouldn't recharter? 15:53:40 q+ 15:53:59 q+ 15:54:07 ... Timing for rechartering? 15:54:33 Kaz: We need AC review, that usually takes 1 month. If we get comments, it could take another month 15:54:39 ... Technically we're in good timing 15:54:46 ack k 15:55:05 Francois: We also need to run internal horizontal reviews, which takes a bit longer 15:55:19 s/good timing/good timing for a simple rechartering :)/ 15:55:22 ... Thank you for preparing the slides. Useful to see the list of things the group worked on 15:55:46 ... I'm not worried about the "what", more about the "who" ... who can lead the tasks? 15:56:08 ... Topics don't make much progress if people don't step up. Can we run a call in the group, to see who's willing to spend time on what 15:56:35 ... We don't need to worry about removing things from the charter. But would be good to understand what the IG might achieve in the next charter period 15:57:10 q+ 15:57:16 ack ti 15:58:31 q+ jad 15:59:39 ack jad 15:59:53 Jad: I can give a new member's perspectives. One reason for joining this group, is looking at problems for media on the web 16:00:10 ... We're still navigating the problem space, sounds like we're exploring 16:00:39 ... I'm keen to be more involved over time. Look at how we build media rich experiences, and based on that come up with creative solutions 16:01:44 Kaz: It's good timing, to think about what and who. If needed, we can request an extension 16:01:44 ack k 16:12:14 [adjourned] 16:12:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:12:21 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/07-me-minutes.html kaz 16:29:39 nigel has joined #me 16:56:30 nigel has joined #me 17:02:35 nigel has joined #me 18:04:05 Zakim has left #me