15:00:13 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 15:00:18 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-irc 15:01:15 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF 15:01:34 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan 15:02:43 rrsagent, make log publc 15:02:50 s/rrsagent, make log publc// 15:02:54 rrsagent, make log public 15:03:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:03:39 MIzushima has joined #wot-td 15:03:39 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#February_01.2C_2023 15:03:47 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 15:05:32 dape has joined #wot-td 15:06:03 present+ Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster 15:06:16 chair: Sebastian/Ege 15:06:25 cris_ has joined #wot-td 15:07:54 q+ 15:09:56 sebastian has joined #wot-td 15:10:21 topic: Calendars 15:11:49 -> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/wot/calendar wg/wot/calendar 15:11:51 kaz: @@@ 15:11:52 scribe: dape 15:13:20 TOPIC: Minutes 15:13:52 s/@@@/as PLH mentioned within his message to the Chairs, we're encouraged to use the group Calendar to manage the WG calls. However, we need to confirm the calendar entries because it seems some of the entries are strange. Also we have similar information on the Wiki and the Marketing page as well. So should clarify how to deal with them too./ 15:14:06 rrsagent, make log public 15:14:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:14:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:15:00 i|kaz:|-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2023JanMar/0044.html PLH's message (member-only)| 15:15:17 -> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/25-wot-td-minutes.html Jan-25 15:15:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:15:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:15:49 i/as PLH/scribenick: kaz/ 15:15:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:15:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:16:43 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Tomoaki_Mizushima 15:16:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:17:21 sk: we need to remove details for the TD and Binding Templates charters 15:17:42 ... they need to go to another document 15:18:57 kaz: I will add some of my sentences to the binding minutes 15:19:00 sk: any objections? 15:19:05 sk: minutes are approved 15:19:56 topic: TD Charter Items 15:20:21 ek: I will do the detail removal once the PR is merged 15:22:20 q+ 15:23:19 ack k 15:23:53 ek: I will add some new items such as virtual things and what is also in my comment above 15:24:07 q+ 15:24:07 sk: we can merge now and remove the details later on 15:24:12 q+ 15:24:15 sk: any objections to merge this? 15:24:53 ack k 15:24:53 kaz: merging is fine, we should not remove but find where to put the details 15:25:04 s/fine,/fine, but/ 15:25:11 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 15:25:24 s/remove/through the details away. 15:25:49 s/but find/So we should find/ 15:25:55 ca: how should we review this? 15:26:22 sk: we will evaluate everything once they are here 15:26:37 q? 15:26:41 ack c 15:26:42 q+ 15:27:00 sk: there will be a separate repo where the charter will live 15:27:35 ack k 15:30:28 sk: we have a similar PR for the binding templates 15:30:51 sk: we can merge it like the TD PR. We need to summarize the work items and move details somewhere else 15:31:52 sk: there are merge conflicts 15:32:01 ek: I can resolve and merge it if there are no complaints 15:32:22 i/we have/kaz: will create a separate repo for further discussion, and try to move the remaining PRs to that repo. To be honest, it would be easier to merge all the remaining PRs right away, and move the updated HTML to that separate repo, though :)/ 15:32:26 q? 15:32:26 sk: I hear no complaints 15:32:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:32:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:33:34 i|I will do the detail|subtopic: PR 1063| 15:33:52 i|I will do the detail|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1063 wot PR 1063 - TD Work Items| 15:34:02 topic: Thing Description 15:34:29 i|we have a similar|subtopic: PR 1065| 15:34:39 sk: you must have seen that the root url has td 1.1 version now 15:34:55 i|we have a similar|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1065 wot PR 1065 - WG Charter - Binding Templates| 15:34:59 q+ 15:35:18 q+ 15:35:22 i|w need to|scribenick: Ege| 15:35:35 sk: so you need to know the URL in advance 15:36:25 q+ 15:36:29 ... our bibliography also self links 15:36:51 -> https://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions version guide 15:37:56 kaz: we have version management guide 15:38:08 ... you can also see all the specifications 15:38:59 ... we should understand that first, then agree on a policy and make sure to use dated urls 15:39:48 s/all the specifications/all the specifications via the "History" link within the spec/ 15:40:02 s/management guide/management guide, and this is the proper behavior./ 15:40:14 s/we should/in addition, we should/ 15:40:22 s/in addition, // 15:42:30 s/on a policy and/on a policy (and apply the policy all the WoT specs equally), and/ 15:42:38 ek: It is trivial to add a link, we can agree on a policy 15:42:40 s/dated urls/dated URLs for reference purposes./ 15:42:48 q? 15:42:50 ack k 15:42:51 ack e 15:42:53 ac d 15:42:58 s/ac d// 15:43:00 ack d 15:43:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:43:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:43:35 kaz: also 1.0 is an obsolete document once 1.1 rec is published 15:43:55 q+ 15:43:58 ek: we can add (obsolete) in the text 15:44:15 dp: I find it wrong that a CR version is replacing a REC 15:44:22 s/we need to remove details/scribenick: Ege/ 15:44:27 q? 15:44:29 ... once we reach 1.1 REC, this is fine but now it is wrong 15:44:29 s/we need to remove details/scribenick: Ege/ 15:44:32 ack dape 15:44:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:44:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:45:41 s/sk: scribenick: Ege/sk: we need to remove details/ 15:45:49 i/we need to remove details/scribenick: Ege/ 15:45:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:45:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:46:04 dp: this is probably the same in arch document 15:47:17 kaz: CR is also a stable document so from process point of view, it is fine to replace the REC 1.0 with CR 1.1 15:47:20 q? 15:47:24 ack k 15:47:57 s/CR is also a/Right. On the other hand, please remember that CR is already a/ 15:48:14 topic: TD PRs 15:48:50 PR 1684 15:48:50 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1684 15:49:41 s/ so from process point of view, it is fine to replace the REC 1.0 with CR 1.1/. So it's reasonable to use the latest CR draft for the canonical URL instead of the old REC from the W3C Process viewpoint./ 15:49:47 sk: this PR fixes as much as possible until TD 2.0 15:50:18 q? 15:50:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:50:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:50:25 ca: also this fixes some CI pipeline issues 15:50:34 sk: you can see that it only affects the semantics 15:51:06 i/you must have/subtopic: TD version management/ 15:51:08 sk: so we can merge it 15:51:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:51:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:51:58 s/topic: TD PRs/subtopic: PR 1684/ 15:52:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:52:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:52:56 s/https/-> https/ 15:53:10 s/1684/1684 PR 1684 - Fix shacl, context and ontology/ 15:53:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:53:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:53:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:54:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:54:28 q+ 15:54:44 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1712 PR 1712 - Add table numbers and captions using new respec option 15:54:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:54:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:54:55 ack c 15:54:55 subtopic: PR 1712 15:54:59 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1712 15:55:14 ek: I get errors again, the captions are the same 15:55:17 s/topic: TD Charter Items/topic: Charter Items/ 15:55:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:55:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:55:43 ... cris can you have a look ? 15:55:43 ca: yes I can 15:55:44 sk: let's see next week 15:55:50 subtopic: PR 1732 15:56:21 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1732 PR 1732 - Minor follow-up syntax alignments/fixes 15:56:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:56:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:57:06 sk: thank you daniel for the fixes 15:57:16 subtopic: PR 1737 15:57:27 https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1737 15:58:22 s/https/-> https/ 15:58:49 s/1737/1737 PR 1737 - Add explanation about observeproperty relationship/ 15:59:35 ek: This is just to add a statement that there is no guarantees 15:59:57 sk: so a consumer does not necessarily get a notification of property changes 16:00:56 sk: we can stop the TD part for now, Ege will do the binding templates now 16:01:06 present+ Jan_Romann 16:01:27 bye 16:01:32 bye! 16:01:37 mjk has joined #wot-td 16:01:49 topic: Protocol binding templates 16:02:03 s/Protocol b/B/ 16:02:11 scribenick: cris_ 16:02:20 subtopic: Pull Requests 16:02:44 s/subtopic:/topic:/ 16:02:58 subtopic: PR XXX 16:03:14 ege: moving orphaned sections back into the main body 16:03:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:03:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:03:56 q+ 16:03:56 ege: today I tackled content-type section 16:04:00 s/XXX/228/ 16:04:34 topic: japanese vendor view point 16:05:00 kaz: it needs several improvements especially the core document. 16:05:15 ... you wanted to know their availability to join this call 16:05:18 ... I asked them 16:05:53 ... 1. they are very interested in the discussion, but they are concerned about the current mechanism 16:06:02 s/1.// 16:06:30 ... 1. hosting a developer meeting up and evaluate together the current document 16:07:06 2. do a Japanese meetup, collect feedback and then report back 16:07:15 s/vendor view point/vendor feedback/ 16:07:23 s/2./... 2./ 16:07:32 ege: good news 16:07:39 ... we could start with the developer meetup 16:08:04 ... after that we can start welcome them our calls 16:08:06 ... would it work? 16:08:44 kaz: Mizushima-san is already working on a Japanese meetup 16:08:56 ... it will be held in February 16:09:18 ... so I would recommend to first wait and get an initial feedback 16:09:34 ... later we can organize a second global meetup 16:09:43 mizushima: I don't have a date yet 16:09:47 kaz: true 16:09:55 ege: after the 15th ? 16:10:11 ... so that we can have a deadline to get a better document 16:10:14 kaz: not sure 16:10:21 ege: ok then it's asap 16:10:31 ... but that's a great news 16:10:32 s/2. do a/... 2. do a/ 16:10:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:10:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:10:53 topic: PR 16:11:01 subtopic: PR 228 16:11:13 s/topic: Pull Requests// 16:11:14 ege: This PR fits well in the discussion about the improvements 16:11:20 s/topic: PR// 16:11:42 ege: improved the section structure 16:11:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:11:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:12:31 s/topic: japanese vendor feedback/subtopic: Japanese vendor's feedback/ 16:12:34 16:13:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:13:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:13:41 subsubtopic: test 16:13:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:13:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:14:25 s/sub 228// 16:14:28 q+ 16:14:31 ege: any questions? 16:14:33 ack k 16:14:43 s/topic: PR/subtopic: PR 228/ 16:14:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:14:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:14:53 ack d 16:14:59 dape: quick note: last example have contentType in the wrong place 16:15:06 ege: yeah, I can quickly fix it 16:15:07 s/subsubtopic: test// 16:15:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:15:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:15:19 q? 16:15:22 q+ 16:16:22 ack cr 16:16:51 cris: maybe there are too many examples about different content types? 16:17:15 q+ 16:17:15 i|This PR fits|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/228 PR 228 - Temporary Section Reorg - Part 2: Payloads| 16:17:45 ege: it is nice to have multiple examples 16:17:50 q? 16:18:22 ack dape 16:18:33 dape: I think I see the point, maybe it is enough to a list of different content-types without ripeting the form 16:18:39 ege: I see, that make sense 16:18:53 cris: agree 16:19:00 ege: any other opinion ? 16:20:42 ... I would still have single json example with a list of possible content-types 16:21:09 subtopic: PR 224 16:21:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/224 PR 224 - Add initial version of feedback survey 16:21:57 ege: it would be helpful to gather feedback from devs 16:22:07 ... would it relevant for the Japanese meetup? 16:22:09 q+ 16:22:27 kaz: at the moment I am not sure 16:23:15 ... in any case we should discuss what should be described by the core document a priori and then we can ask feedback. 16:23:42 ... current draft includes important pieces but it is kind of a cheatsheet 16:23:57 ... we need more explanatory text 16:24:34 ... the survey would be too tough for external people 16:24:51 ... even if the survey per se is a good idea. 16:25:28 q- 16:26:23 ... so we should think about this kind of questions as part of the possible Developer Meetup for Binding Templates 16:26:34 i/so we/scribenick: kaz/ 16:26:40 scribenick: cris_ 16:26:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:26:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:27:08 ege: can we do both ? events + survey? 16:27:49 kaz: we can ask participants of the online meetup to provide further feedback in a survey 16:28:37 ege: about the PR are you ok for merginng? 16:28:52 ... ok, then I'll merge it but without sending it 16:29:16 s/of the/in the/ 16:29:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:29:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:29:47 topic: Issues 16:29:54 subtopic: issue 227 16:30:04 ege: we need a json schema for each protocol binding 16:30:14 ... Jan are you going to work with CoAP? 16:30:24 jan: yes, I will 16:30:45 subtopic: Issue 230 16:31:03 ege: is somebody free to create a jsonschema for mqtt? 16:31:06 cris: I can 16:31:21 subtopic: Issue YYY 16:31:37 ege: tricky because is coming from an external vocabulary 16:31:41 s/topic: Issues// 16:32:15 q+ 16:32:15 q+ 16:32:21 i|we need a json|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/227 Issue 227 - JSON Schema for CoAP Vocabulary| 16:32:28 q? 16:32:51 i|is somebody|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/230 Issue 230 - JSON Schema for MQTT Vocabulary| 16:33:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:33:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 16:33:31 ege: how should we treat RDF data, in the json schema? 16:33:53 cris: you mean how to use keyword that are not in the RDF ontology? 16:34:04 q+ 16:34:15 ege: no, more about if we should use all the keywords or just the ones useful for us 16:34:27 dape: reduce it to a sanity check 16:34:40 ... do not list all the precise values for HTTP 16:35:43 ack c 16:35:44 ack d 16:35:45 ack dape 16:36:07 kaz: we can talk with some semantic web experts 16:36:14 ... from the other w3c groups 16:36:21 ege: we can, but about what? 16:36:32 kaz: if they know more about this kind of vocabulary 16:36:46 ege: we can do it 16:37:20 kaz: we should refer to external vocabulary as much as possible 16:37:34 ... that's why I'm suggesting to ask 16:38:05 ege: it is not vocabulary related by it is more about the json schema related to the thing description 16:38:29 kaz: json schema is used for validating the vocabulary in this context ? 16:38:43 ege: not really, it is more about validating our data 16:41:23 kaz: would we want to refer to specific ontology terms? 16:41:45 ... if jsonschema is complicated, semantic experts can help us 16:42:05 ege: they would probably recommend SHACL validation 16:42:10 ... it would be too much 16:42:25 ... we need a simpler mechanism with json schema 16:45:09 kaz: what do you mean by validation ? 16:45:43 ege: coming from thing description 16:48:25 kaz: should explain how a TD that contains protocol binding keywords should be validated 16:48:35 ege: ok, any other points? 16:52:19 kaz: are we asking external developers to write protocol specific binding validation them self? 16:52:32 ege: correct, but it is kind of tough 16:52:48 s/but it is kind of tough// 16:53:03 kaz: but it is a good amount of work 16:53:11 ege: but we can collaborate 16:53:20 kaz: still it is a bit too much 16:56:02 ... the core document should focus more on the mechanism of the bindings 16:56:13 ege: schema is helpful 16:56:48 kaz: the reason I'm concerned it is also testability 16:57:15 ... how are we going to test also this additional requirement? 16:57:23 ... manually or automatically 16:59:00 ege: maybe this discussion should be held another time 16:59:07 kaz: I have another point of view 16:59:24 ... we should actually discuss it right now, 17:00:06 ... going forward on this direction would not be right 17:00:30 ege: I don't understand why we should not doing it on this charter 17:00:52 kaz: why do we need add new description to the main body? 17:01:01 ... we should finalize the document 17:01:47 ege: this is to improve the readability of the core document 17:02:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:02:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 17:03:04 s/YYY/229/ 17:03:31 i|tricky|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/229 Issue 229 - JSON Schema for HTTP Binding Terms| 17:03:35 [adjourned] 17:03:39 rrsagent, draft minute 17:03:39 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', kaz. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:03:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:03:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/01-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 17:56:33 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 20:28:56 Zakim has left #wot-td