IRC log of aria on 2023-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:44:47 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-aria-irc
17:44:51 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:44:52 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:44:55 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WGF
17:44:55 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
17:45:02 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:45:02 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:45:03 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20230126T130000
17:45:03 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:45:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3XR2Fxi
17:45:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3XYEeOJ
17:45:05 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:45:08 [agendabot]
agenda+ F2F planning: Seattle or SF, Week of 17 April, 24 April, or May 1
17:45:11 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Add explanations for how textboxes and searchboxes obtain their values https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1827
17:45:14 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Draft: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805
17:45:17 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/3JaWgcc
17:45:25 [jamesn]
regrets+ PeterKrautzberger
17:45:28 [jamesn]
regrets+ ScottOHara
17:45:36 [jamesn]
present+
17:48:36 [chlane]
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17:57:49 [spectranaut_]
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17:59:25 [jamesn]
agenda?
17:59:52 [StefanS]
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18:00:29 [Adam_Page]
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18:02:26 [spectranaut_]
chair: spectranaut_
18:02:32 [Adam_Page]
present+
18:02:41 [Adam_Page]
scribe: Adam_Page
18:02:48 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:02:48 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3XR2Fxi -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:02:54 [chlane]
present+
18:03:48 [jaunitageorge1]
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present+
18:03:48 [sarah_higley]
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18:03:48 [jaunitageorge1]
Anyone going to CSUN?
18:04:07 [sarah_higley]
present+
18:05:11 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #457
18:05:27 [Adam_Page]
... Scott will get to this one later
18:05:35 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #182
18:05:49 [Adam_Page]
... follow-up issue for a PR craig opened
18:05:50 [CurtBellew]
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18:05:56 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: need to merge #1860 first
18:06:06 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:06:31 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #1861
18:06:48 [Adam_Page]
... potential deep dive topic
18:07:15 [Adam_Page]
... we’ll agenda for next week
18:07:34 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #455
18:08:07 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: should we call this a reserved role?
18:08:20 [Adam_Page]
jraig: if anyone else has suggestions, should we reserve like we do the video element, or is there a better element in existing ARIA?
18:08:26 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: group?
18:08:37 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: it’s an additional role, right?
18:09:09 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: we’ll agenda this
18:09:18 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:09:18 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3XYEeOJ -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:32 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #183
18:09:42 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: this is what we’ve talked about before with step 2c
18:10:14 [Adam_Page]
... I rearranged the words and tested in all browsers
18:10:27 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: we need reviewers
18:11:38 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #1862
18:11:48 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: we might want to agenda this
18:11:59 [Adam_Page]
... it’s been a while since we’ve discussed
18:11:59 [jamesn]
"Busy
18:11:59 [jamesn]
When others mention you, assign you, or request your review, GitHub will let them know that you have limited availability."
18:12:23 [Adam_Page]
... we don’t have standard deprecation text
18:12:48 [Adam_Page]
... if we wanted to add a process for deprecating things, beyond what we have
18:12:57 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: would you create an issue for deprecation process?
18:13:33 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: don’t necessarily need to go through formal deprecation steps for every change
18:13:54 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: with specs being evergreen nowadays, what does it mean?
18:14:03 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: need clarity from management
18:14:42 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: it sounds like we should have some consistency in the way we deprecate things
18:14:48 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: it complicates the way things are validated
18:15:00 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: a validator should be able to say it’s been deprecated vs. invalid
18:15:24 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: where the current usage is causing _harm_, then deprecation is perhaps not enough
18:15:37 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: it makes it worse here because it’s the wrong pattern
18:16:15 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: should we have a follow-up about deprecation process?
18:16:22 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #1860
18:16:41 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: John Gunderson started a few years ago and I picked it up
18:16:48 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: there were some merge conflicts
18:16:52 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: I added some reviewers
18:17:06 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: I opened this as a new PR and closed the old one
18:17:27 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #456
18:17:40 [Adam_Page]
.. this was a broken reference to HTML
18:17:58 [Adam_Page]
... asked for Scott’s review. It changes at least Chrome‘s implementation
18:18:08 [Adam_Page]
... not sure what Webkit does — could you take a look, jcraig?
18:18:29 [Adam_Page]
... whether a header and footer should be considered landmark if they’re contained within a section context
18:18:41 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: #1859
18:18:56 [Adam_Page]
... pkra already looked at this
18:19:04 [Adam_Page]
... anyone want to review?
18:19:13 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: I think this can just be merged
18:19:18 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: I agree
18:19:28 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: great, please approve the PR
18:19:31 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:19:31 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:19:47 [MarkMcCarthy]
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18:19:50 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
18:19:59 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: do we have any to plan? other than potential process ones
18:20:37 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: if we do a process one, then the expectations for issue and PR templates could be part of that
18:20:56 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: let’s talk about it next meeting, and then plan a deep dive if necessary
18:20:59 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:20:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- F2F planning: Seattle or SF, Week of 17 April, 24 April, or May 1 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:21:57 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: we’re going to send out a poll, but wanted some initial thoughts
18:22:15 [Adam_Page]
... Seattle and San Francisco had the same level of preference
18:22:46 [Adam_Page]
... weeks of April 17, April 24, or May 1 are the three options
18:24:52 [Adam_Page]
... group preference is for April over May
18:25:02 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:25:02 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Add explanations for how textboxes and searchboxes obtain their values https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1827 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:25:21 [chlane]
https://w3c.github.io/aria/#combobox
18:25:24 [chlane]
Otherwise, the value of the combobox is represented by its descendant elements and can be determined using the same method used to compute the name of a button from its descendant content.
18:25:29 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: this is an old PR from chlane, wasn’t sure how to resolve
18:25:43 [Adam_Page]
... this PR copies the text from combobox into textbox and search box
18:25:58 [sarah_higley]
q+
18:26:15 [Adam_Page]
chlane: there are comments that need discussion
18:26:29 [spectranaut_]
q?
18:26:42 [Adam_Page]
chlane: observed that “button” is being used confusingly in the spec language
18:27:10 [Adam_Page]
chlane: the dependency here is how buttons get their name
18:27:19 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: it’s specifically calling out an ARIA button, right?
18:27:39 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: value is what we’re trying to define here
18:27:53 [Adam_Page]
cyns: would it be better to just take out the button, if it’s only meant to serve as an example?
18:28:00 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: should this actually be in accname?
18:28:11 [chlane]
q+
18:28:20 [spectranaut_]
ack sarah_higley
18:28:23 [Adam_Page]
... because there’s a step with a list of steps for how to calculate value
18:28:28 [Adam_Page]
... and it needs improvement
18:28:41 [Adam_Page]
... we should document the steps more clearly there
18:28:54 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: so that’s remove this sentence from this PR, and then file a new issue for accname?
18:29:09 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: yeah, and then this point in the ARIA spec would reference that
18:29:12 [sarah_higley]
ack me
18:29:53 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: for this PR, there’s already some text that cross-references to accname, so you could imitate that
18:29:59 [jamesn]
q+
18:30:00 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: but I agree, maybe value needs to be part of it
18:30:07 [jamesn]
ack chlane
18:30:18 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: so you could just take out the whole button sentence
18:30:35 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: under all three: combobox, textbox, searchbox, this PR should be removing mention of the value calculation and referencing accname instead
18:30:42 [Adam_Page]
chlane: okay, I’ll open a new accname issue for that
18:30:49 [Adam_Page]
... to review accname calculation
18:31:48 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: so we’ll probably just remove all those bullets from 2c and then rewrite it so it makes sense?
18:31:57 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley : yes, that’s what I had in mind?
18:32:12 [jamesn]
ack me
18:32:28 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:32:28 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> Draft: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:32:58 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: jcraig put agenda+ on this PR
18:33:07 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: yes, there were a handful of things
18:33:27 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: there were some placeholders in the description that I think are all filled out now
18:34:09 [Adam_Page]
... there’s a lot of boilerplate added to specific roles
18:34:25 [Adam_Page]
... the essential stuff is in the new description area
18:34:44 [Adam_Page]
... I wanted to ask about the content of these
18:35:31 [Adam_Page]
... for the AT experience, you land on a thing with actions, and this allows a user to go through from one main thing to another, rather than hitting a bunch of tabstops in between
18:35:44 [Adam_Page]
... like emails meaning being the main thing, with related actions like archive, delete, etc.
18:36:55 [Adam_Page]
... I’m being specific about this because I want to make sure there’s no mix-up for authors or implementors
18:37:45 [Adam_Page]
... actions could be more than just simple buttons operations, like a checkbox that has a label and a checked/unchecked state
18:38:18 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: in the first deep dive, we talked about cases where there could be nested dropdowns or inputs
18:38:31 [Adam_Page]
... where the meaning could be altered by the user changing text
18:38:55 [Adam_Page]
... like a “Snooze for [30 minutes]” feature for a meeting reminder
18:39:15 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: the actions must be _visible_, right?
18:39:27 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: that’s the next requirement
18:39:37 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: if they’re visible, then there shouldn’t be a privacy issue
18:40:57 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: any action that you can activate/toggle with a single click should be allowed
18:41:19 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: part of this is that actions are allowed as child roles of the parent, no matter what role they are
18:41:32 [Adam_Page]
... so this originally came up as a case where people nest interactive items *within* an interactive item
18:41:52 [Adam_Page]
... which normally wouldn’t be allowed, but aria-actions could enable it, if we wanted to pursue it
18:41:59 [Adam_Page]
... but I’m okay with narrowing the scope here
18:44:54 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: this is good discussion, I’ll try to capture this in the PR thread
18:45:18 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: text inputs relating to the action are one example, a spinbutton number input could be another
18:45:51 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: still need to talk to some more people about the focus & click interactions
18:46:02 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: this was the main additional complexity I was thinking about
18:46:15 [Adam_Page]
... but just trying to anticipate it, not propose we support it necessarily
18:50:53 [Adam_Page]
jcraig: I think these notes in the PR cover everything, so I can yield time for the rest of the meeting
18:50:59 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:50:59 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/3JaWgcc -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:51:13 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: since we almost have 1.2 published, we can soon follow with 1.3
18:51:32 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: I need to close the CFC as well, so I’ll send out an email that it passed
18:51:55 [Adam_Page]
zakim, next item
18:51:55 [Zakim]
agendum 7 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:52:12 [Adam_Page]
sarah_higley: if anyone wants to review the descendant PR, please do
18:52:27 [Adam_Page]
spectranaut_: in the next 8 minutes, let’s all review PRs
18:52:41 [Adam_Page]
jamesn: please put the link in IRC?
18:52:44 [StefanS]
present+
18:52:47 [sarah_higley]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1454
18:53:17 [Adam_Page]
zakim, end meeting
18:53:17 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been jamesn, Adam_Page, chlane, jaunitageorge, sarah_higley, CurtBellew, MarkMcCarthy, StefanS
18:53:19 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:53:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:53:27 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
18:53:27 [Zakim]
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