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15:54:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:54:41 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Fazio
15:56:31 <Fazio> meeting: Maturity Model Subgroup
15:59:13 <Fazio> Agenda+ Github Issue #18 What's the relationship with ISO/IEC 30071-1:2019?
15:59:27 <Fazio> Agenda + Github Issue #52 Section 2 (and elsewhere, if necessary): broaden the range of standards relevant to the maturity model.
15:59:35 <jasonjgw> present+
15:59:39 <Fazio> Agenda + Github Issue #91 Proof points should include measures of the extent to which processes are successful
15:59:52 <Fazio> Agenda + Github Issue#45 Would it be better to avoid the overlap between section 3.3 and sections 3.1 and 3.2?
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16:01:12 <Fazio> regrets: Sheri, Nadine
16:01:31 <Fazio> present+
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16:02:33 <Joshue108_> Scribe: Joshue108_
16:02:38 <Joshue108_> present+
16:02:40 <CharlesL> present+
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16:03:21 <Joshue108_> agenda?
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16:07:51 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2023Jan/0015.html
16:08:33 <Joshue108_> TOPIC: Discussion on Sheris mail Maturity model homework
16:08:53 <Joshue108_> DF: I'm ok with leaving it out
16:08:59 <Joshue108_> JS: They were not clear what it meant
16:09:05 <Joshue108_> I'm not sure how to clarify
16:09:24 <Joshue108_> DF: Sheri is not beholden to this.
16:09:39 <Joshue108_> I had comments on #5 - 5) The W3C AMM informs Organizations on best practices for keeping things accessible through the point of view of web, mobile, and documentation development.
16:10:06 <Joshue108_> DF: I want to add, making things accessible - do we want to add ' for establishing and maintaining.
16:10:43 <Joshue108_> RESOLUTION: Drop #7 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2023Jan/0015.html
16:11:03 <Fazio> 5) The W3C AMM informs Organizations on best practices for keeping things accessible through the point of view of web, mobile, and documentation development.
16:11:03 <Joshue108_> RESOLUTION: Change wording in #5 to say establish and maintain https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rqtf/2023Jan/0015.html
16:11:23 <Joshue108_> JK: I've a Q on #6 - will the final deliverable be a web form?
16:11:31 <Joshue108_> JS: We are not staying with spread sheets
16:11:39 <Joshue108_> How we write that tech is an open q
16:11:54 <Joshue108_> DF: I've a bunch of coders to hand
16:12:06 <Joshue108_> JK: We may need a list of reqs for that web form
16:12:27 <Joshue108_> JS: Yes - but now we are working Github issues
16:12:49 <Joshue108_> JS: We have our special guest Jason here to talk about his issues
16:12:54 <Joshue108_> zakim, take up item 1
16:12:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Github Issue #18 What's the relationship with ISO/IEC 30071-1:2019? -- taken up [from Fazio]
16:14:06 <Fazio> https://github.com/w3c/maturity-model/issues/18
16:14:36 <Joshue108_> JW: There is considerable overlap between this document and the practices recommended in ISO/IEC 30071-1:2019, in that both are concerned with an organization's policies and processes.
16:15:41 <Joshue108_> JW: Thats the essence of the concern
16:15:51 <Joshue108_> DF: Can you give us an overview of some points?
16:16:27 <Joshue108_> JW: That doc covers what an a11y policy should cover and entail
16:16:34 <janina> q+
16:16:57 <Joshue108_> DF: Do they cover the same subjects?
16:17:03 <Joshue108_> JW: They do and more
16:17:23 <Joshue108_> JW: For example what needs to be in place for the release of a project etc
16:17:24 <Joshue108_> q?
16:18:14 <Joshue108_> JS: What is the cost of getting that spec?
16:18:21 <Joshue108_> JS: We are free
16:18:55 <Joshue108_> DF: We want to establish an infrastructure that can do this stuff by embedding it in there.
16:19:12 <Joshue108_> So the whole organisation puts a11y in there, top to bottom
16:19:34 <jlkline> Q+
16:19:41 <Joshue108_> ack jan
16:19:44 <janina> ack ja
16:20:03 <Joshue108_> <Comments that ISO is a payed for standard>
16:20:45 <Joshue108_> JW: Harmonisation is an issue, overlap is sufficient - and there is a relationship - even if only published as a w3C note
16:21:03 <Joshue108_> q++ to ask that people speak a little more slowly
16:21:39 <Joshue108_> JS: jason would you be happy if we reviewed the doc, so we are not contradicting in any important way
16:21:47 <Joshue108_> There are some value adds
16:22:10 <Joshue108_> A form can be used to standardise parts of this process
16:22:37 <Joshue108_> JS: There are areas that are very well addressed
16:22:44 <Joshue108_> JS: Is that an issue?
16:23:04 <Joshue108_> JW: its an open question
16:23:19 <Joshue108_> q?
16:23:25 <Joshue108_> q-
16:23:27 <Joshue108_> q--
16:23:34 <Joshue108_> ack +
16:23:34 <Zakim> +, you wanted to ask that people speak a little more slowly
16:24:06 <Joshue108_> <Existential Discussion on standards>
16:24:37 <Joshue108_> DF: I've a couple of things - Jason. would you object to us moving forward?
16:25:08 <Joshue108_> JW: It is reasonable to proceed but at some point there will be decisions about that relationship
16:25:22 <jlkline> stil on queue
16:25:43 <Joshue108_> DF: The IAAP also publish some conflicting things with W3C
16:25:56 <Joshue108_> W3C is the go to organisation for web standards
16:25:57 <Joshue108_> q?
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16:26:12 <Joshue108_> q+ to talk about standards relationships
16:26:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
16:26:42 <Joshue108_> JW: I've reviewed the ISO standard and it is a good and serious work
16:27:01 <Joshue108_> DF: There may be conflicting information - the public will review.
16:27:44 <Joshue108_> JS: If we disagree we can document
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16:28:12 <Joshue108_> JS: The market may decide
16:28:26 <Joshue108_> ack jl
16:28:59 <Joshue108_> JK: We did review the ISO standard and found that it was limited to the development aspects, it did mention policy
16:29:32 <Joshue108_> This will be a note, a guide - others can come to us if things dont support the standard they support the spirit of the standard
16:30:39 <Joshue108_> Things needs to specific if there are conflicts rather than ad hoc review
16:31:34 <Joshue108_> DF: Jason if you have an issue then please add and we can discuss
16:32:36 <Joshue108_>     JW: We should just check to make sure things are consistent and that there are no conflicts etc
16:32:59 <Joshue108_> JK: Do open new issues so we can track them
16:33:42 <Joshue108_> JW: Lets move on
16:33:49 <Joshue108_> zakim, next item
16:33:49 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Joshue108_
16:33:59 <Joshue108_> q?
16:34:01 <Joshue108_> ack me
16:34:01 <Zakim> Joshue108_, you wanted to talk about standards relationships
16:34:02 <Joshue108_> zakim, next item
16:34:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Github Issue #52 Section 2 (and elsewhere, if necessary): broaden the range of standards relevant to the maturity model. -- taken up [from Fazio]
16:34:10 <Fazio> https://github.com/w3c/maturity-model/issues/52
16:34:51 <Joshue108_> DF: Reads Nothing in the proposed maturity model is specific to "Web Content Accessibility Guidelines". However, section 2 can be read as limiting its scope:
16:35:32 <Joshue108_> JW:  The question is matter of making appropriate change to the scope of that section
16:35:58 <Joshue108_> JK: We are tech standards agnostic for the most part
16:36:07 <Joshue108_> JW: And some parts could be read as not
16:36:56 <Joshue108_> q?
16:37:05 <Joshue108_> JOC: I like Jasons last point
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16:39:17 <Joshue108_> JOC: Gives some agreement to Jasons comments etc about harmonising with existing standards but you have created something that is free and not behind a paywall. This cuts a lot of ice with me.
16:39:26 <Joshue108_> DF: <Gives a background>
16:40:03 <Joshue108_> zakim, next item
16:40:03 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Github Issue #91 Proof points should include measures of the extent to which processes are successful -- taken up [from Fazio]
16:40:13 <Joshue108_> https://github.com/w3c/maturity-model/issues/91
16:40:40 <Joshue108_> The proof points should include measures of the extent to which the processes pursued by the organization lead to successful outcomes over time with respect to accessibility.
16:40:57 <Joshue108_> DF: reads..
16:40:57 <Joshue108_> The proof points should include measures of the extent to which the processes pursued by the organization lead to successful outcomes over time with respect to accessibility
16:41:08 <Joshue108_> JW: This is the most substantive IMO
16:41:23 <Joshue108_> Much of what counts as evidence in this draft is circumstantial
16:41:38 <Joshue108_> This needs to be complimented with processes that are available
16:42:08 <Joshue108_> e.g. when used with software they establish potential requirements - that can measure how successful things are over time
16:42:19 <Joshue108_> Are they updated - to ensure a11y?
16:42:27 <Joshue108_> Do they take into account other standards etc?
16:42:43 <Joshue108_> There are issues for how feedback is used and bug reports etc
16:43:14 <Joshue108_> <Gives example of e-commerce company dealing with a11y bugs>
16:43:38 <jlkline> q+
16:43:51 <Joshue108_> There is a range of measures here that may show how successful an organisation is
16:44:02 <Joshue108_> I don't see that reflected in the proof points and evidence
16:44:31 <Joshue108_> There should be addition criteria - to distinguish the maturity of various approaches
16:46:00 <Joshue108_> JW: What is evidence of maturity? How can this be strengthened?
16:46:27 <Joshue108_> DF: We don't want to be too proscriptive etc
16:46:51 <Joshue108_> s/proscriptive/prescriptive
16:46:54 <Joshue108_> ack j
16:47:06 <Joshue108_> JK: We came up with proof points
16:47:33 <Joshue108_> that are not too down in the weeds. A step back is needed to say, this is for the whole organisation
16:47:42 <Fazio> hard to be tech agnostic when you're talking non-compliance
16:47:50 <Joshue108_> It is important to know this is is all self reported
16:48:35 <Joshue108_> There may be checks and balances - if someone is sharing, you can ask for detail or artifacts to support these claims
16:48:51 <Joshue108_> This is about process maturity
16:48:55 <Fazio> DisabilityIN DEI is a goodexample of getting orgs to use a audit
16:48:55 <Joshue108_> q?
16:49:19 <Joshue108_> JS: I'm curious to hear from Brian, is it the same for large orgs?
16:50:13 <Joshue108_> JW: I do appreciate the background - I don't think it speaks to the fundamental concern in that in an a11y policy there will be criteria, responses to reports etc
16:50:25 <Joshue108_> in measuring what an organisation sets itself out to achieve
16:50:37 <Joshue108_> how consistent is an org is reaching these goals.
16:50:54 <Joshue108_> Its not clear enough that this model uses these sources in judging its level of maturity
16:51:17 <Joshue108_> How can process be consistent and effective
16:51:24 <Joshue108_> This relates to bug reports etc
16:51:57 <Joshue108_> To what extent are they getting this - and improving and refining these objectives over time
16:52:36 <Joshue108_> Regulation and policy evolves - and there needs to be a stronger connection between how it implements its policy and how these are measured
16:52:46 <Joshue108_> DF: Would you like to join group Jason?
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16:53:09 <Joshue108_> JF: There is another program referenced there
16:53:37 <Joshue108_> JF: These things are there but are not stated explicitly
16:54:02 <Joshue108_> We need to stay at a strategic level - but not tell people how to do it.
16:54:03 <Joshue108_> q?
16:54:25 <Joshue108_> DF: Refs the disability equality index
16:54:51 <Joshue108_> DF: It would be great to see concrete suggestions
16:55:38 <Joshue108_> JW: I could have a look - in the end its about making sure that how the criteria are achieved has a lot of weight in my book
16:56:09 <Joshue108_> How requirements are managed over time - something more substantial than 'the effectiveness is monitored'
16:56:15 <Joshue108_> DF: What does that look like?
16:57:00 <Joshue108_> DF: Jason please join again
16:57:10 <Joshue108_> JW: I will comment to the last issue at some point
16:57:13 <Joshue108_> q?
16:58:34 <Joshue108_> q+
16:58:47 <Joshue108_> ack me
17:00:40 <Joshue108_> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/18-maturity-minutes.html Joshue108_
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