17:53:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:53:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-irc
17:53:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:53:58 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:54:06 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:54:06 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:07 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20230112T130000
17:54:07 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:54:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3vUtrZC
17:54:07 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3GUX7ML
17:54:09 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:54:12 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Step 2E isn't used for form field + name-from-label when it is the current node in an aria-labelledby traversal https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/179
17:54:15 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Clarify use case for aria-rowindex on cell/gridcell elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1853
17:54:18 <agendabot> agenda+  -> ARIA ACT Rules review - deadline Monday Jan 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847
17:54:21 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
17:55:04 <jamesn> agenda+ TPAC Announcement - Sep 11-15 Sevilla, Spain
17:55:52 <jamesn> agenda order is 1,2,3,8,4,5,6,7
17:56:59 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
17:58:51 <MichaelC> present+
17:59:18 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:59:43 <spectranaut_> present+
17:59:45 <spectranaut_> agenda?
18:01:01 <pkra> present+
18:02:22 <Adam_Page_> Adam_Page_ has joined #aria
18:02:34 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut
18:02:53 <chlane> scribe:clane
18:02:55 <sohara> sohara has joined #aria
18:03:14 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
18:03:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3vUtrZC -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:03:46 <chlane> A  bunch of dpub issues
18:03:51 <Adam_Page_> present+
18:03:56 <chlane> jamesn: open them and see
18:04:04 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
18:04:06 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:04:28 <chlane> jamesn: if editiorial don't worry
18:04:37 <chlane> spectranaut_: #45 is about roles
18:04:48 <chlane> jamesn: aaron is dealing with it
18:04:52 <chlane> spectranaut_: great
18:05:02 <chlane> spectranaut_: accname 180
18:05:19 <chlane> testable statements, bryan will look into it
18:05:31 <chlane> spectranaut_: test cases in wiki?
18:05:40 <chlane> spectranaut_: will send it
18:06:06 <chlane> author errors as opposed to user agent errors
18:06:16 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:06:16 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
18:06:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3GUX7ML -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:06:22 <StefanS> present+
18:06:32 <chlane> dpub-aam #23
18:06:44 <chlane> need new editor from dpub
18:08:01 <MarkMcCarthy> chlane: maybe I could help, I have some related prior experience
18:08:31 <chlane> jamesn: good to have a least 2 or 3
18:08:42 <MarkMcCarthy> spectranaut_: let's have a chat, chlane :)
18:08:47 <chlane> spectranaut_: pr 1855
18:08:59 <chlane> jamesn: not sure what is being attempted
18:09:20 <chlane> Daniel trying to generate respec
18:09:24 <chlane> jamesn: no merging
18:09:30 <chlane> spectranaut_: coreaam 161
18:09:40 <chlane> open pr to discuss msaa roles
18:09:45 <chlane> if interested take a look
18:09:49 <chlane> coreaam 160
18:09:54 <chlane> just updated
18:10:03 <chlane> html aam 454
18:10:15 <chlane> scotto
18:10:27 <chlane> related to popover
18:10:36 <chlane> peripheral to content editiable
18:11:08 <chlane> more reviews, introduces where attributes have been added
18:11:13 <chlane> no longer generic
18:11:22 <chlane> bumped to minimum role
18:11:32 <chlane> the safe defauls
18:11:43 <chlane> some user agents want to go further
18:11:49 <jcraig> present+
18:11:57 <chlane> div with tabindex should be a button
18:12:06 <chlane> expose info important to a11y
18:12:19 <chlane> not just say it's generic 'whatevs'
18:12:44 <chlane> Adam_Page_: will review
18:13:12 <chlane> dpub-aam 20
18:13:22 <chlane>  Zakim, next agendum
18:13:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:13:55 <chlane> jamesn: we were meant to have one today
18:14:02 <chlane> sohara:
18:14:22 <chlane> jamesn: schedule for next week?
18:14:26 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
18:14:32 <chlane> sohara: retouching base on aria-haspopup
18:14:44 <chlane> sohara: make it's use on buttons less problematic
18:14:54 <chlane> argument to think about it again
18:15:16 <chlane> no visible indicator of a popup its not needed
18:15:32 <chlane> get everyone back up to speed on it
18:15:38 <chlane> reaffirm resolutions
18:15:54 <chlane> sohara: want us to agree and not confuse us
18:16:03 <chlane> sohara: next week
18:16:10 <chlane> spectranaut_: great next week
18:16:25 <chlane> spectranaut_: any others
18:16:27 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
18:16:27 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- TPAC Announcement - Sep 11-15 Sevilla, Spain -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:19:24 <chlane> bryan, accname traversal property, need to ping james teh
18:19:24 <chlane> action: jamesn to ping james teh
18:19:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2170 - Ping james teh [on James Nurthen - due 2023-01-19].
18:19:31 <chlane> bryan is out next week
18:19:51 <chlane> tpac announcement ...
18:20:05 <chlane> sept 11-15 ins Sevilla, Spain
18:20:10 <chlane> get your budgets in order
18:20:32 <chlane> jamesn: pushed for warmer location
18:20:42 <chlane> jamesn: outdoor time with covid
18:20:45 <chlane> was great
18:21:05 <chlane> spectranaut_: will follow up
18:21:13 <chlane> jamesn: hotels are not expensive
18:21:18 <chlane> in Segilla
18:21:21 <chlane> sevilla
18:21:22 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
18:21:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Step 2E isn't used for form field + name-from-label when it is the current node in an aria-labelledby traversal https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/179 -- taken
18:21:25 <Zakim> ... up [from agendabot]
18:21:40 <chlane> spectranaut_: accname issue from Sara
18:21:55 <chlane> sarah_higley: it's around whether 2C
18:22:01 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:22:20 <chlane> which is around what happens when a form field is included in aria label traversal
18:22:49 <chlane> input participates in a label
18:22:56 <chlane> form field where the labe is like
18:23:03 <chlane> 'do this until time'
18:23:21 <chlane> to participate in label of another control
18:23:29 <chlane> ...
18:23:35 <chlane> true for all browsers
18:23:37 <jamesn> q+
18:23:56 <jcraig> aq+
18:23:58 <jcraig> q+
18:24:06 <jamesn> ack james
18:24:08 <Matt_King> q+
18:24:11 <chlane> bryan, agree is doesnt say you should restrict the value
18:24:20 <spectranaut_> q?
18:24:21 <chlane> jamesn: the spec is not clear
18:24:37 <chlane> jamesn: differenet numbering in editors and published version
18:24:53 <chlane> the part that starts 'otherwise ...
18:25:26 <chlane> jamesn: parentheses is a clarification
18:26:13 <chlane> sarah_higley: any element direclty referenced is referrimg to the label
18:26:31 <chlane> jamesn: needs clarifyinng
18:26:39 <chlane> jcraig: discuss with AT team
18:26:50 <chlane> and QA team to determine what they want
18:27:14 <sarah_higley> q+
18:27:17 <chlane> especially since UAs are in agreement, it goes to ATs
18:27:22 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:27:26 <jamesn> q+ to say I don't want to change something where all browsers agree as it would seem like a breaking change
18:27:33 <chlane> jcraig: we can change if we get general concensus
18:27:46 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
18:27:48 <chlane> keep it as is if value is not getting in the way
18:28:00 <chlane> Matt_King: more of a clarifying question
18:28:29 <sohara> q+
18:28:36 <chlane> what it is that you think we want
18:28:59 <chlane> my interpretation is that we want what the browsers are doing
18:29:07 <chlane> after x hours
18:29:12 <chlane> thats what is the value
18:29:19 <chlane> not part of the label
18:29:31 <chlane> we want to include the value in the label
18:29:49 <chlane> Matt_King: good examples,
18:29:59 <jcraig> Notification Reminder
18:29:59 <jcraig> - repeat once
18:29:59 <jcraig> - repeat forever until dismissed
18:29:59 <jcraig> - repeat x times
18:30:01 <chlane> issue related to form fields open forevery
18:30:16 <chlane> my understanding is that we want the value
18:30:28 <chlane> jcraig: notifications,
18:30:44 <chlane> do you want to repeat it once or forever
18:30:51 <chlane> repeat x times or ?
18:31:12 <chlane> sarah_higley: when control is the label
18:31:47 <chlane> Matt_King: if i want to compose with multiple referencers aria-labelledby
18:32:03 <jcraig> s/when control is the label/talking about the inverse, only when control is directly referenced/
18:32:08 <chlane> lets say x, that control is directly referenced
18:32:23 <chlane> also directly reference a span that is a portion
18:32:40 <chlane> composing a string out of a portion of a controls label
18:32:49 <spectranaut_> ack sarah_higley
18:32:51 <chlane> i want a way to get value
18:33:38 <chlane> Matt_King: if we can word it in such a way, get value and/or label
18:33:56 <chlane> sarah_higley: getting values needs refinement
18:34:09 <chlane> sarah_higley: standalone components, more common with web components
18:34:23 <chlane> was making a combobox, any field with secondary control
18:34:34 <chlane> where labe is not required
18:34:46 <chlane> i was doing tags
18:34:58 <chlane> selected items within standalone widget
18:35:13 <chlane> widget A share label with widget B
18:35:23 <chlane> found workaround
18:35:29 <chlane> but it is useful to say
18:35:35 <chlane> this list of items has a ...
18:36:05 <chlane> no knowedge of where accessible name is coming from
18:36:16 <chlane> bryan had to do the same thing
18:36:30 <chlane> birthdate as name of input
18:36:33 <chlane> ...
18:37:04 <chlane> it would be helpful to know you are looking at the birthdate datepicker
18:37:09 <spectranaut_> q?
18:37:30 <chlane> sarah_higley: related items ..
18:38:00 <chlane> Matt_King:workaround for select only combobox using value text
18:38:10 <chlane> value text is not the value
18:38:23 <chlane> ignore the value use the value text
18:38:44 <chlane> bryan, a link has text content
18:38:54 <chlane> Matt_King: name and value is the same thing?
18:39:11 <chlane> ARIA doesn't have a value concept
18:39:30 <chlane> bryan, set the value property in a11y tree ...
18:39:53 <chlane> if referenced by aria-describedy you get the value
18:40:24 <chlane> if something you reference has a specific name its supposed to be returned
18:40:24 <jamesn> ack me
18:40:24 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say I don't want to change something where all browsers agree as it would seem like a breaking change
18:40:38 <chlane> jamesn: as browsers are aligned
18:40:49 <chlane> change would be breaking
18:41:00 <chlane> interested in solving the problem
18:41:08 <chlane> changing is dangerous
18:41:16 <chlane> bryan, change spec?
18:41:34 <jcraig> q+
18:41:35 <chlane> spectranaut_: update spec
18:41:42 <chlane> jcraig: that is one approach
18:41:55 <spectranaut_> s/update spec/should we update the spec to match the implementations?/
18:41:56 <chlane> jamesn:we should consider
18:42:02 <Matt_King> q?
18:42:18 <spectranaut_> ack sohara
18:42:24 <jcraig> s/jcraig: that/jamesn: that/
18:42:28 <chlane> sohara: I think it is interesting it behaves this way
18:42:39 <chlane> opposite to how other things work
18:43:00 <chlane> if <article> has accessible name
18:43:09 <chlane> you get the name not the content
18:43:30 <chlane> is there something that needs to be added, mechanism
18:43:33 <spectranaut_> q?
18:43:43 <jcraig> q-
18:43:56 <chlane> can aria-labelledby be able to get a value
18:44:02 <chlane> grab name or content
18:44:15 <chlane> bryan there is always a workaround
18:44:27 <Matt_King> q?
18:44:41 <chlane> Adam_Page_: sarah cant, need aria-hassamelabelas
18:45:00 <chlane> Matt_King: if you can get the computed name
18:45:09 <chlane> you can get what you want
18:45:21 <chlane> Matt_King: that is in the AOM roadmap
18:45:29 <chlane> sohara: is that the solution?
18:45:36 <chlane> Matt_King: that's what I'm wondering
18:45:42 <chlane> spectranaut_: that is the long term
18:46:13 <chlane> Matt_King: spec is out of alignment with reality
18:46:23 <chlane> then solve Sarah's problem
18:46:47 <chlane> Sarah there are workarounds
18:46:56 <jamesn> the labelledby bit in C/E was added based on this issue https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/746
18:47:20 <chlane> Sarah can make a PR
18:48:16 <Matt_King> present+
18:48:22 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
18:48:22 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Clarify use case for aria-rowindex on cell/gridcell elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1853 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:48:54 <chlane> spectranaut_: do we want an issue for when we want the value not the label
18:49:16 <chlane> sarah_higley: fine with answer of getting it the value
18:49:38 <chlane> aria 1853
18:50:17 <chlane> sohara: ACT reviews
18:50:25 <chlane> using aria-rowindex on a cell
18:50:27 <chlane> odd
18:50:35 <chlane> it is allowed in spec
18:50:54 <chlane> asked by dev who was trying to not use rows
18:50:57 <chlane> at all
18:51:05 <chlane> headscratcher
18:51:15 <chlane> looking back at spec
18:51:18 <chlane> it was there
18:51:47 <chlane> had it at the row level
18:52:01 <chlane> it could be a way to add redundant or conflicting info
18:52:24 <chlane> Matt_King: I wonder if anyone can remember, rowindex is new
18:52:39 <chlane> what the reason for supporting on a cell was
18:53:06 <chlane> Matt_King: can't imaging the justification
18:53:19 <spectranaut_> jamesn: can you see who added that example?
18:53:21 <chlane> seems obvious, you could have a single row ...
18:53:29 <chlane> error correction
18:53:49 <chlane> sohara: dev wanted to use rowindex instead of rows
18:53:53 <jamesn> is this a duplicate btw.... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1138
18:54:19 <chlane> table reconstruction
18:54:43 <chlane> Matt_King: if we could reflow tables anyway we want would be awesome
18:54:56 <chlane> but for aria not lining up with html
18:55:18 <chlane> complicating that would be suicidde
18:55:35 <chlane> jcraig: anything that affects performance but chips get faster
18:55:59 <chlane> Matt_King: deprecate rowindex because of chat gpg
18:56:20 <spectranaut_> agenda?
18:56:21 <chlane> sohara: practicality doesn't seem to be there
18:56:58 <chlane> sohara: i said footgun
18:57:29 <chlane> spectranaut_: no one can think of a reason to keep it
18:57:40 <chlane> jamesn: we could deprecate it
18:57:50 <chlane> if someone set it should still work
18:58:08 <MarkMcCarthy> s/chat gpg/chatGPT [laughs]
18:58:14 <chlane> jamesn: if you set it on the cell you shouldn't have to set it on the row
18:58:23 <chlane> Zakim, next agendum
18:58:23 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> ARIA ACT Rules review - deadline Monday Jan 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:58:53 <chlane> spectranaut_:please review
19:00:20 <chlane> yes
19:00:22 <chlane> zakim, end meeting
19:00:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MichaelC, spectranaut_, pkra, Adam_Page_, MarkMcCarthy, StefanS, jcraig, Matt_King
19:00:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:00:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:00:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:49:28 <jamesn> s/scribe:clane/scribe:chlane/
19:49:42 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:49:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:52:07 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
19:52:18 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:52:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
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