IRC log of aria on 2023-01-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:53:53 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 17:53:57 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-irc
- 17:53:57 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 17:53:58 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
- 17:54:06 [jamesn]
- agendabot, find agenda
- 17:54:06 [agendabot]
- jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
- 17:54:07 [agendabot]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20230112T130000
- 17:54:07 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 17:54:07 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3vUtrZC
- 17:54:07 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3GUX7ML
- 17:54:09 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
- 17:54:12 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Step 2E isn't used for form field + name-from-label when it is the current node in an aria-labelledby traversal https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/179
- 17:54:15 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Clarify use case for aria-rowindex on cell/gridcell elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1853
- 17:54:18 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> ARIA ACT Rules review - deadline Monday Jan 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847
- 17:54:21 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
- 17:55:04 [jamesn]
- agenda+ TPAC Announcement - Sep 11-15 Sevilla, Spain
- 17:55:52 [jamesn]
- agenda order is 1,2,3,8,4,5,6,7
- 17:56:59 [spectranaut_]
- spectranaut_ has joined #aria
- 17:58:51 [MichaelC]
- present+
- 17:59:18 [pkra]
- pkra has joined #aria
- 17:59:43 [spectranaut_]
- present+
- 17:59:45 [spectranaut_]
- agenda?
- 18:01:01 [pkra]
- present+
- 18:02:22 [Adam_Page_]
- Adam_Page_ has joined #aria
- 18:02:34 [spectranaut_]
- chair: spectranaut
- 18:02:53 [chlane]
- scribe:clane
- 18:02:55 [sohara]
- sohara has joined #aria
- 18:03:14 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:03:14 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3vUtrZC -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:03:46 [chlane]
- A bunch of dpub issues
- 18:03:51 [Adam_Page_]
- present+
- 18:03:56 [chlane]
- jamesn: open them and see
- 18:04:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
- MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
- 18:04:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
- present+
- 18:04:28 [chlane]
- jamesn: if editiorial don't worry
- 18:04:37 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: #45 is about roles
- 18:04:48 [chlane]
- jamesn: aaron is dealing with it
- 18:04:52 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: great
- 18:05:02 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: accname 180
- 18:05:19 [chlane]
- testable statements, bryan will look into it
- 18:05:31 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: test cases in wiki?
- 18:05:40 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: will send it
- 18:06:06 [chlane]
- author errors as opposed to user agent errors
- 18:06:16 [StefanS]
- StefanS has joined #aria
- 18:06:16 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:06:17 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3GUX7ML -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:06:22 [StefanS]
- present+
- 18:06:32 [chlane]
- dpub-aam #23
- 18:06:44 [chlane]
- need new editor from dpub
- 18:08:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
- chlane: maybe I could help, I have some related prior experience
- 18:08:31 [chlane]
- jamesn: good to have a least 2 or 3
- 18:08:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
- spectranaut_: let's have a chat, chlane :)
- 18:08:47 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: pr 1855
- 18:08:59 [chlane]
- jamesn: not sure what is being attempted
- 18:09:20 [chlane]
- Daniel trying to generate respec
- 18:09:24 [chlane]
- jamesn: no merging
- 18:09:30 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: coreaam 161
- 18:09:40 [chlane]
- open pr to discuss msaa roles
- 18:09:45 [chlane]
- if interested take a look
- 18:09:49 [chlane]
- coreaam 160
- 18:09:54 [chlane]
- just updated
- 18:10:03 [chlane]
- html aam 454
- 18:10:15 [chlane]
- scotto
- 18:10:27 [chlane]
- related to popover
- 18:10:36 [chlane]
- peripheral to content editiable
- 18:11:08 [chlane]
- more reviews, introduces where attributes have been added
- 18:11:13 [chlane]
- no longer generic
- 18:11:22 [chlane]
- bumped to minimum role
- 18:11:32 [chlane]
- the safe defauls
- 18:11:43 [chlane]
- some user agents want to go further
- 18:11:49 [jcraig]
- present+
- 18:11:57 [chlane]
- div with tabindex should be a button
- 18:12:06 [chlane]
- expose info important to a11y
- 18:12:19 [chlane]
- not just say it's generic 'whatevs'
- 18:12:44 [chlane]
- Adam_Page_: will review
- 18:13:12 [chlane]
- dpub-aam 20
- 18:13:22 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:13:22 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:13:55 [chlane]
- jamesn: we were meant to have one today
- 18:14:02 [chlane]
- sohara:
- 18:14:22 [chlane]
- jamesn: schedule for next week?
- 18:14:26 [sarah_higley]
- sarah_higley has joined #aria
- 18:14:32 [chlane]
- sohara: retouching base on aria-haspopup
- 18:14:44 [chlane]
- sohara: make it's use on buttons less problematic
- 18:14:54 [chlane]
- argument to think about it again
- 18:15:16 [chlane]
- no visible indicator of a popup its not needed
- 18:15:32 [chlane]
- get everyone back up to speed on it
- 18:15:38 [chlane]
- reaffirm resolutions
- 18:15:54 [chlane]
- sohara: want us to agree and not confuse us
- 18:16:03 [chlane]
- sohara: next week
- 18:16:10 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: great next week
- 18:16:25 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: any others
- 18:16:27 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:16:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 8 -- TPAC Announcement - Sep 11-15 Sevilla, Spain -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:19:24 [chlane]
- bryan, accname traversal property, need to ping james teh
- 18:19:24 [chlane]
- action: jamesn to ping james teh
- 18:19:31 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2170 - Ping james teh [on James Nurthen - due 2023-01-19].
- 18:19:31 [chlane]
- bryan is out next week
- 18:19:51 [chlane]
- tpac announcement ...
- 18:20:05 [chlane]
- sept 11-15 ins Sevilla, Spain
- 18:20:10 [chlane]
- get your budgets in order
- 18:20:32 [chlane]
- jamesn: pushed for warmer location
- 18:20:42 [chlane]
- jamesn: outdoor time with covid
- 18:20:45 [chlane]
- was great
- 18:21:05 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: will follow up
- 18:21:13 [chlane]
- jamesn: hotels are not expensive
- 18:21:18 [chlane]
- in Segilla
- 18:21:21 [chlane]
- sevilla
- 18:21:22 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:21:22 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- -> Step 2E isn't used for form field + name-from-label when it is the current node in an aria-labelledby traversal https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/179 -- taken
- 18:21:25 [Zakim]
- ... up [from agendabot]
- 18:21:40 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: accname issue from Sara
- 18:21:55 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: it's around whether 2C
- 18:22:01 [Matt_King]
- Matt_King has joined #aria
- 18:22:20 [chlane]
- which is around what happens when a form field is included in aria label traversal
- 18:22:49 [chlane]
- input participates in a label
- 18:22:56 [chlane]
- form field where the labe is like
- 18:23:03 [chlane]
- 'do this until time'
- 18:23:21 [chlane]
- to participate in label of another control
- 18:23:29 [chlane]
- ...
- 18:23:35 [chlane]
- true for all browsers
- 18:23:37 [jamesn]
- q+
- 18:23:56 [jcraig]
- aq+
- 18:23:58 [jcraig]
- q+
- 18:24:06 [jamesn]
- ack james
- 18:24:08 [Matt_King]
- q+
- 18:24:11 [chlane]
- bryan, agree is doesnt say you should restrict the value
- 18:24:20 [spectranaut_]
- q?
- 18:24:21 [chlane]
- jamesn: the spec is not clear
- 18:24:37 [chlane]
- jamesn: differenet numbering in editors and published version
- 18:24:53 [chlane]
- the part that starts 'otherwise ...
- 18:25:26 [chlane]
- jamesn: parentheses is a clarification
- 18:26:13 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: any element direclty referenced is referrimg to the label
- 18:26:31 [chlane]
- jamesn: needs clarifyinng
- 18:26:39 [chlane]
- jcraig: discuss with AT team
- 18:26:50 [chlane]
- and QA team to determine what they want
- 18:27:14 [sarah_higley]
- q+
- 18:27:17 [chlane]
- especially since UAs are in agreement, it goes to ATs
- 18:27:22 [spectranaut_]
- ack jcraig
- 18:27:26 [jamesn]
- q+ to say I don't want to change something where all browsers agree as it would seem like a breaking change
- 18:27:33 [chlane]
- jcraig: we can change if we get general concensus
- 18:27:46 [spectranaut_]
- ack Matt_King
- 18:27:48 [chlane]
- keep it as is if value is not getting in the way
- 18:28:00 [chlane]
- Matt_King: more of a clarifying question
- 18:28:29 [sohara]
- q+
- 18:28:36 [chlane]
- what it is that you think we want
- 18:28:59 [chlane]
- my interpretation is that we want what the browsers are doing
- 18:29:07 [chlane]
- after x hours
- 18:29:12 [chlane]
- thats what is the value
- 18:29:19 [chlane]
- not part of the label
- 18:29:31 [chlane]
- we want to include the value in the label
- 18:29:49 [chlane]
- Matt_King: good examples,
- 18:29:59 [jcraig]
- Notification Reminder
- 18:29:59 [jcraig]
- - repeat once
- 18:29:59 [jcraig]
- - repeat forever until dismissed
- 18:29:59 [jcraig]
- - repeat x times
- 18:30:01 [chlane]
- issue related to form fields open forevery
- 18:30:16 [chlane]
- my understanding is that we want the value
- 18:30:28 [chlane]
- jcraig: notifications,
- 18:30:44 [chlane]
- do you want to repeat it once or forever
- 18:30:51 [chlane]
- repeat x times or ?
- 18:31:12 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: when control is the label
- 18:31:47 [chlane]
- Matt_King: if i want to compose with multiple referencers aria-labelledby
- 18:32:03 [jcraig]
- s/when control is the label/talking about the inverse, only when control is directly referenced/
- 18:32:08 [chlane]
- lets say x, that control is directly referenced
- 18:32:23 [chlane]
- also directly reference a span that is a portion
- 18:32:40 [chlane]
- composing a string out of a portion of a controls label
- 18:32:49 [spectranaut_]
- ack sarah_higley
- 18:32:51 [chlane]
- i want a way to get value
- 18:33:38 [chlane]
- Matt_King: if we can word it in such a way, get value and/or label
- 18:33:56 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: getting values needs refinement
- 18:34:09 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: standalone components, more common with web components
- 18:34:23 [chlane]
- was making a combobox, any field with secondary control
- 18:34:34 [chlane]
- where labe is not required
- 18:34:46 [chlane]
- i was doing tags
- 18:34:58 [chlane]
- selected items within standalone widget
- 18:35:13 [chlane]
- widget A share label with widget B
- 18:35:23 [chlane]
- found workaround
- 18:35:29 [chlane]
- but it is useful to say
- 18:35:35 [chlane]
- this list of items has a ...
- 18:36:05 [chlane]
- no knowedge of where accessible name is coming from
- 18:36:16 [chlane]
- bryan had to do the same thing
- 18:36:30 [chlane]
- birthdate as name of input
- 18:36:33 [chlane]
- ...
- 18:37:04 [chlane]
- it would be helpful to know you are looking at the birthdate datepicker
- 18:37:09 [spectranaut_]
- q?
- 18:37:30 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: related items ..
- 18:38:00 [chlane]
- Matt_King:workaround for select only combobox using value text
- 18:38:10 [chlane]
- value text is not the value
- 18:38:23 [chlane]
- ignore the value use the value text
- 18:38:44 [chlane]
- bryan, a link has text content
- 18:38:54 [chlane]
- Matt_King: name and value is the same thing?
- 18:39:11 [chlane]
- ARIA doesn't have a value concept
- 18:39:30 [chlane]
- bryan, set the value property in a11y tree ...
- 18:39:53 [chlane]
- if referenced by aria-describedy you get the value
- 18:40:24 [chlane]
- if something you reference has a specific name its supposed to be returned
- 18:40:24 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 18:40:24 [Zakim]
- jamesn, you wanted to say I don't want to change something where all browsers agree as it would seem like a breaking change
- 18:40:38 [chlane]
- jamesn: as browsers are aligned
- 18:40:49 [chlane]
- change would be breaking
- 18:41:00 [chlane]
- interested in solving the problem
- 18:41:08 [chlane]
- changing is dangerous
- 18:41:16 [chlane]
- bryan, change spec?
- 18:41:34 [jcraig]
- q+
- 18:41:35 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: update spec
- 18:41:42 [chlane]
- jcraig: that is one approach
- 18:41:55 [spectranaut_]
- s/update spec/should we update the spec to match the implementations?/
- 18:41:56 [chlane]
- jamesn:we should consider
- 18:42:02 [Matt_King]
- q?
- 18:42:18 [spectranaut_]
- ack sohara
- 18:42:24 [jcraig]
- s/jcraig: that/jamesn: that/
- 18:42:28 [chlane]
- sohara: I think it is interesting it behaves this way
- 18:42:39 [chlane]
- opposite to how other things work
- 18:43:00 [chlane]
- if <article> has accessible name
- 18:43:09 [chlane]
- you get the name not the content
- 18:43:30 [chlane]
- is there something that needs to be added, mechanism
- 18:43:33 [spectranaut_]
- q?
- 18:43:43 [jcraig]
- q-
- 18:43:56 [chlane]
- can aria-labelledby be able to get a value
- 18:44:02 [chlane]
- grab name or content
- 18:44:15 [chlane]
- bryan there is always a workaround
- 18:44:27 [Matt_King]
- q?
- 18:44:41 [chlane]
- Adam_Page_: sarah cant, need aria-hassamelabelas
- 18:45:00 [chlane]
- Matt_King: if you can get the computed name
- 18:45:09 [chlane]
- you can get what you want
- 18:45:21 [chlane]
- Matt_King: that is in the AOM roadmap
- 18:45:29 [chlane]
- sohara: is that the solution?
- 18:45:36 [chlane]
- Matt_King: that's what I'm wondering
- 18:45:42 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: that is the long term
- 18:46:13 [chlane]
- Matt_King: spec is out of alignment with reality
- 18:46:23 [chlane]
- then solve Sarah's problem
- 18:46:47 [chlane]
- Sarah there are workarounds
- 18:46:56 [jamesn]
- the labelledby bit in C/E was added based on this issue https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/746
- 18:47:20 [chlane]
- Sarah can make a PR
- 18:48:16 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 18:48:22 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:48:22 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- -> Clarify use case for aria-rowindex on cell/gridcell elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1853 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:48:54 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: do we want an issue for when we want the value not the label
- 18:49:16 [chlane]
- sarah_higley: fine with answer of getting it the value
- 18:49:38 [chlane]
- aria 1853
- 18:50:17 [chlane]
- sohara: ACT reviews
- 18:50:25 [chlane]
- using aria-rowindex on a cell
- 18:50:27 [chlane]
- odd
- 18:50:35 [chlane]
- it is allowed in spec
- 18:50:54 [chlane]
- asked by dev who was trying to not use rows
- 18:50:57 [chlane]
- at all
- 18:51:05 [chlane]
- headscratcher
- 18:51:15 [chlane]
- looking back at spec
- 18:51:18 [chlane]
- it was there
- 18:51:47 [chlane]
- had it at the row level
- 18:52:01 [chlane]
- it could be a way to add redundant or conflicting info
- 18:52:24 [chlane]
- Matt_King: I wonder if anyone can remember, rowindex is new
- 18:52:39 [chlane]
- what the reason for supporting on a cell was
- 18:53:06 [chlane]
- Matt_King: can't imaging the justification
- 18:53:19 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: can you see who added that example?
- 18:53:21 [chlane]
- seems obvious, you could have a single row ...
- 18:53:29 [chlane]
- error correction
- 18:53:49 [chlane]
- sohara: dev wanted to use rowindex instead of rows
- 18:53:53 [jamesn]
- is this a duplicate btw.... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1138
- 18:54:19 [chlane]
- table reconstruction
- 18:54:43 [chlane]
- Matt_King: if we could reflow tables anyway we want would be awesome
- 18:54:56 [chlane]
- but for aria not lining up with html
- 18:55:18 [chlane]
- complicating that would be suicidde
- 18:55:35 [chlane]
- jcraig: anything that affects performance but chips get faster
- 18:55:59 [chlane]
- Matt_King: deprecate rowindex because of chat gpg
- 18:56:20 [spectranaut_]
- agenda?
- 18:56:21 [chlane]
- sohara: practicality doesn't seem to be there
- 18:56:58 [chlane]
- sohara: i said footgun
- 18:57:29 [chlane]
- spectranaut_: no one can think of a reason to keep it
- 18:57:40 [chlane]
- jamesn: we could deprecate it
- 18:57:50 [chlane]
- if someone set it should still work
- 18:58:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
- s/chat gpg/chatGPT [laughs]
- 18:58:14 [chlane]
- jamesn: if you set it on the cell you shouldn't have to set it on the row
- 18:58:23 [chlane]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 18:58:23 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 -- -> ARIA ACT Rules review - deadline Monday Jan 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:58:53 [chlane]
- spectranaut_:please review
- 19:00:20 [chlane]
- yes
- 19:00:22 [chlane]
- zakim, end meeting
- 19:00:22 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been MichaelC, spectranaut_, pkra, Adam_Page_, MarkMcCarthy, StefanS, jcraig, Matt_King
- 19:00:24 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 19:00:25 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html Zakim
- 19:00:32 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 19:00:32 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria
- 19:49:28 [jamesn]
- s/scribe:clane/scribe:chlane/
- 19:49:42 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:49:43 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
- 19:52:07 [jamesn]
- meeting: ARIA WG
- 19:52:18 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:52:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
- 20:03:50 [jongund]
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- github-bot has joined #aria