IRC log of aria on 2023-01-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:53:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:53:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-irc
17:53:57 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:53:58 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:54:06 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:54:06 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:07 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20230112T130000
17:54:07 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:54:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3vUtrZC
17:54:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3GUX7ML
17:54:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:54:12 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Step 2E isn't used for form field + name-from-label when it is the current node in an aria-labelledby traversal https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/179
17:54:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Clarify use case for aria-rowindex on cell/gridcell elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1853
17:54:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> ARIA ACT Rules review - deadline Monday Jan 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847
17:54:21 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
17:55:04 [jamesn]
agenda+ TPAC Announcement - Sep 11-15 Sevilla, Spain
17:55:52 [jamesn]
agenda order is 1,2,3,8,4,5,6,7
17:56:59 [spectranaut_]
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17:58:51 [MichaelC]
present+
17:59:18 [pkra]
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17:59:43 [spectranaut_]
present+
17:59:45 [spectranaut_]
agenda?
18:01:01 [pkra]
present+
18:02:22 [Adam_Page_]
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18:02:34 [spectranaut_]
chair: spectranaut
18:02:53 [chlane]
scribe:clane
18:02:55 [sohara]
sohara has joined #aria
18:03:14 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:03:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3vUtrZC -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:03:46 [chlane]
A bunch of dpub issues
18:03:51 [Adam_Page_]
present+
18:03:56 [chlane]
jamesn: open them and see
18:04:04 [MarkMcCarthy]
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18:04:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
18:04:28 [chlane]
jamesn: if editiorial don't worry
18:04:37 [chlane]
spectranaut_: #45 is about roles
18:04:48 [chlane]
jamesn: aaron is dealing with it
18:04:52 [chlane]
spectranaut_: great
18:05:02 [chlane]
spectranaut_: accname 180
18:05:19 [chlane]
testable statements, bryan will look into it
18:05:31 [chlane]
spectranaut_: test cases in wiki?
18:05:40 [chlane]
spectranaut_: will send it
18:06:06 [chlane]
author errors as opposed to user agent errors
18:06:16 [StefanS]
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18:06:16 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:06:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3GUX7ML -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:06:22 [StefanS]
present+
18:06:32 [chlane]
dpub-aam #23
18:06:44 [chlane]
need new editor from dpub
18:08:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
chlane: maybe I could help, I have some related prior experience
18:08:31 [chlane]
jamesn: good to have a least 2 or 3
18:08:42 [MarkMcCarthy]
spectranaut_: let's have a chat, chlane :)
18:08:47 [chlane]
spectranaut_: pr 1855
18:08:59 [chlane]
jamesn: not sure what is being attempted
18:09:20 [chlane]
Daniel trying to generate respec
18:09:24 [chlane]
jamesn: no merging
18:09:30 [chlane]
spectranaut_: coreaam 161
18:09:40 [chlane]
open pr to discuss msaa roles
18:09:45 [chlane]
if interested take a look
18:09:49 [chlane]
coreaam 160
18:09:54 [chlane]
just updated
18:10:03 [chlane]
html aam 454
18:10:15 [chlane]
scotto
18:10:27 [chlane]
related to popover
18:10:36 [chlane]
peripheral to content editiable
18:11:08 [chlane]
more reviews, introduces where attributes have been added
18:11:13 [chlane]
no longer generic
18:11:22 [chlane]
bumped to minimum role
18:11:32 [chlane]
the safe defauls
18:11:43 [chlane]
some user agents want to go further
18:11:49 [jcraig]
present+
18:11:57 [chlane]
div with tabindex should be a button
18:12:06 [chlane]
expose info important to a11y
18:12:19 [chlane]
not just say it's generic 'whatevs'
18:12:44 [chlane]
Adam_Page_: will review
18:13:12 [chlane]
dpub-aam 20
18:13:22 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:13:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:13:55 [chlane]
jamesn: we were meant to have one today
18:14:02 [chlane]
sohara:
18:14:22 [chlane]
jamesn: schedule for next week?
18:14:26 [sarah_higley]
sarah_higley has joined #aria
18:14:32 [chlane]
sohara: retouching base on aria-haspopup
18:14:44 [chlane]
sohara: make it's use on buttons less problematic
18:14:54 [chlane]
argument to think about it again
18:15:16 [chlane]
no visible indicator of a popup its not needed
18:15:32 [chlane]
get everyone back up to speed on it
18:15:38 [chlane]
reaffirm resolutions
18:15:54 [chlane]
sohara: want us to agree and not confuse us
18:16:03 [chlane]
sohara: next week
18:16:10 [chlane]
spectranaut_: great next week
18:16:25 [chlane]
spectranaut_: any others
18:16:27 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:16:27 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- TPAC Announcement - Sep 11-15 Sevilla, Spain -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:19:24 [chlane]
bryan, accname traversal property, need to ping james teh
18:19:24 [chlane]
action: jamesn to ping james teh
18:19:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2170 - Ping james teh [on James Nurthen - due 2023-01-19].
18:19:31 [chlane]
bryan is out next week
18:19:51 [chlane]
tpac announcement ...
18:20:05 [chlane]
sept 11-15 ins Sevilla, Spain
18:20:10 [chlane]
get your budgets in order
18:20:32 [chlane]
jamesn: pushed for warmer location
18:20:42 [chlane]
jamesn: outdoor time with covid
18:20:45 [chlane]
was great
18:21:05 [chlane]
spectranaut_: will follow up
18:21:13 [chlane]
jamesn: hotels are not expensive
18:21:18 [chlane]
in Segilla
18:21:21 [chlane]
sevilla
18:21:22 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:21:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Step 2E isn't used for form field + name-from-label when it is the current node in an aria-labelledby traversal https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/179 -- taken
18:21:25 [Zakim]
... up [from agendabot]
18:21:40 [chlane]
spectranaut_: accname issue from Sara
18:21:55 [chlane]
sarah_higley: it's around whether 2C
18:22:01 [Matt_King]
Matt_King has joined #aria
18:22:20 [chlane]
which is around what happens when a form field is included in aria label traversal
18:22:49 [chlane]
input participates in a label
18:22:56 [chlane]
form field where the labe is like
18:23:03 [chlane]
'do this until time'
18:23:21 [chlane]
to participate in label of another control
18:23:29 [chlane]
...
18:23:35 [chlane]
true for all browsers
18:23:37 [jamesn]
q+
18:23:56 [jcraig]
aq+
18:23:58 [jcraig]
q+
18:24:06 [jamesn]
ack james
18:24:08 [Matt_King]
q+
18:24:11 [chlane]
bryan, agree is doesnt say you should restrict the value
18:24:20 [spectranaut_]
q?
18:24:21 [chlane]
jamesn: the spec is not clear
18:24:37 [chlane]
jamesn: differenet numbering in editors and published version
18:24:53 [chlane]
the part that starts 'otherwise ...
18:25:26 [chlane]
jamesn: parentheses is a clarification
18:26:13 [chlane]
sarah_higley: any element direclty referenced is referrimg to the label
18:26:31 [chlane]
jamesn: needs clarifyinng
18:26:39 [chlane]
jcraig: discuss with AT team
18:26:50 [chlane]
and QA team to determine what they want
18:27:14 [sarah_higley]
q+
18:27:17 [chlane]
especially since UAs are in agreement, it goes to ATs
18:27:22 [spectranaut_]
ack jcraig
18:27:26 [jamesn]
q+ to say I don't want to change something where all browsers agree as it would seem like a breaking change
18:27:33 [chlane]
jcraig: we can change if we get general concensus
18:27:46 [spectranaut_]
ack Matt_King
18:27:48 [chlane]
keep it as is if value is not getting in the way
18:28:00 [chlane]
Matt_King: more of a clarifying question
18:28:29 [sohara]
q+
18:28:36 [chlane]
what it is that you think we want
18:28:59 [chlane]
my interpretation is that we want what the browsers are doing
18:29:07 [chlane]
after x hours
18:29:12 [chlane]
thats what is the value
18:29:19 [chlane]
not part of the label
18:29:31 [chlane]
we want to include the value in the label
18:29:49 [chlane]
Matt_King: good examples,
18:29:59 [jcraig]
Notification Reminder
18:29:59 [jcraig]
- repeat once
18:29:59 [jcraig]
- repeat forever until dismissed
18:29:59 [jcraig]
- repeat x times
18:30:01 [chlane]
issue related to form fields open forevery
18:30:16 [chlane]
my understanding is that we want the value
18:30:28 [chlane]
jcraig: notifications,
18:30:44 [chlane]
do you want to repeat it once or forever
18:30:51 [chlane]
repeat x times or ?
18:31:12 [chlane]
sarah_higley: when control is the label
18:31:47 [chlane]
Matt_King: if i want to compose with multiple referencers aria-labelledby
18:32:03 [jcraig]
s/when control is the label/talking about the inverse, only when control is directly referenced/
18:32:08 [chlane]
lets say x, that control is directly referenced
18:32:23 [chlane]
also directly reference a span that is a portion
18:32:40 [chlane]
composing a string out of a portion of a controls label
18:32:49 [spectranaut_]
ack sarah_higley
18:32:51 [chlane]
i want a way to get value
18:33:38 [chlane]
Matt_King: if we can word it in such a way, get value and/or label
18:33:56 [chlane]
sarah_higley: getting values needs refinement
18:34:09 [chlane]
sarah_higley: standalone components, more common with web components
18:34:23 [chlane]
was making a combobox, any field with secondary control
18:34:34 [chlane]
where labe is not required
18:34:46 [chlane]
i was doing tags
18:34:58 [chlane]
selected items within standalone widget
18:35:13 [chlane]
widget A share label with widget B
18:35:23 [chlane]
found workaround
18:35:29 [chlane]
but it is useful to say
18:35:35 [chlane]
this list of items has a ...
18:36:05 [chlane]
no knowedge of where accessible name is coming from
18:36:16 [chlane]
bryan had to do the same thing
18:36:30 [chlane]
birthdate as name of input
18:36:33 [chlane]
...
18:37:04 [chlane]
it would be helpful to know you are looking at the birthdate datepicker
18:37:09 [spectranaut_]
q?
18:37:30 [chlane]
sarah_higley: related items ..
18:38:00 [chlane]
Matt_King:workaround for select only combobox using value text
18:38:10 [chlane]
value text is not the value
18:38:23 [chlane]
ignore the value use the value text
18:38:44 [chlane]
bryan, a link has text content
18:38:54 [chlane]
Matt_King: name and value is the same thing?
18:39:11 [chlane]
ARIA doesn't have a value concept
18:39:30 [chlane]
bryan, set the value property in a11y tree ...
18:39:53 [chlane]
if referenced by aria-describedy you get the value
18:40:24 [chlane]
if something you reference has a specific name its supposed to be returned
18:40:24 [jamesn]
ack me
18:40:24 [Zakim]
jamesn, you wanted to say I don't want to change something where all browsers agree as it would seem like a breaking change
18:40:38 [chlane]
jamesn: as browsers are aligned
18:40:49 [chlane]
change would be breaking
18:41:00 [chlane]
interested in solving the problem
18:41:08 [chlane]
changing is dangerous
18:41:16 [chlane]
bryan, change spec?
18:41:34 [jcraig]
q+
18:41:35 [chlane]
spectranaut_: update spec
18:41:42 [chlane]
jcraig: that is one approach
18:41:55 [spectranaut_]
s/update spec/should we update the spec to match the implementations?/
18:41:56 [chlane]
jamesn:we should consider
18:42:02 [Matt_King]
q?
18:42:18 [spectranaut_]
ack sohara
18:42:24 [jcraig]
s/jcraig: that/jamesn: that/
18:42:28 [chlane]
sohara: I think it is interesting it behaves this way
18:42:39 [chlane]
opposite to how other things work
18:43:00 [chlane]
if <article> has accessible name
18:43:09 [chlane]
you get the name not the content
18:43:30 [chlane]
is there something that needs to be added, mechanism
18:43:33 [spectranaut_]
q?
18:43:43 [jcraig]
q-
18:43:56 [chlane]
can aria-labelledby be able to get a value
18:44:02 [chlane]
grab name or content
18:44:15 [chlane]
bryan there is always a workaround
18:44:27 [Matt_King]
q?
18:44:41 [chlane]
Adam_Page_: sarah cant, need aria-hassamelabelas
18:45:00 [chlane]
Matt_King: if you can get the computed name
18:45:09 [chlane]
you can get what you want
18:45:21 [chlane]
Matt_King: that is in the AOM roadmap
18:45:29 [chlane]
sohara: is that the solution?
18:45:36 [chlane]
Matt_King: that's what I'm wondering
18:45:42 [chlane]
spectranaut_: that is the long term
18:46:13 [chlane]
Matt_King: spec is out of alignment with reality
18:46:23 [chlane]
then solve Sarah's problem
18:46:47 [chlane]
Sarah there are workarounds
18:46:56 [jamesn]
the labelledby bit in C/E was added based on this issue https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/746
18:47:20 [chlane]
Sarah can make a PR
18:48:16 [Matt_King]
present+
18:48:22 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:48:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Clarify use case for aria-rowindex on cell/gridcell elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1853 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:48:54 [chlane]
spectranaut_: do we want an issue for when we want the value not the label
18:49:16 [chlane]
sarah_higley: fine with answer of getting it the value
18:49:38 [chlane]
aria 1853
18:50:17 [chlane]
sohara: ACT reviews
18:50:25 [chlane]
using aria-rowindex on a cell
18:50:27 [chlane]
odd
18:50:35 [chlane]
it is allowed in spec
18:50:54 [chlane]
asked by dev who was trying to not use rows
18:50:57 [chlane]
at all
18:51:05 [chlane]
headscratcher
18:51:15 [chlane]
looking back at spec
18:51:18 [chlane]
it was there
18:51:47 [chlane]
had it at the row level
18:52:01 [chlane]
it could be a way to add redundant or conflicting info
18:52:24 [chlane]
Matt_King: I wonder if anyone can remember, rowindex is new
18:52:39 [chlane]
what the reason for supporting on a cell was
18:53:06 [chlane]
Matt_King: can't imaging the justification
18:53:19 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: can you see who added that example?
18:53:21 [chlane]
seems obvious, you could have a single row ...
18:53:29 [chlane]
error correction
18:53:49 [chlane]
sohara: dev wanted to use rowindex instead of rows
18:53:53 [jamesn]
is this a duplicate btw.... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1138
18:54:19 [chlane]
table reconstruction
18:54:43 [chlane]
Matt_King: if we could reflow tables anyway we want would be awesome
18:54:56 [chlane]
but for aria not lining up with html
18:55:18 [chlane]
complicating that would be suicidde
18:55:35 [chlane]
jcraig: anything that affects performance but chips get faster
18:55:59 [chlane]
Matt_King: deprecate rowindex because of chat gpg
18:56:20 [spectranaut_]
agenda?
18:56:21 [chlane]
sohara: practicality doesn't seem to be there
18:56:58 [chlane]
sohara: i said footgun
18:57:29 [chlane]
spectranaut_: no one can think of a reason to keep it
18:57:40 [chlane]
jamesn: we could deprecate it
18:57:50 [chlane]
if someone set it should still work
18:58:08 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/chat gpg/chatGPT [laughs]
18:58:14 [chlane]
jamesn: if you set it on the cell you shouldn't have to set it on the row
18:58:23 [chlane]
Zakim, next agendum
18:58:23 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> ARIA ACT Rules review - deadline Monday Jan 16th https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1847 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:58:53 [chlane]
spectranaut_:please review
19:00:20 [chlane]
yes
19:00:22 [chlane]
zakim, end meeting
19:00:22 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been MichaelC, spectranaut_, pkra, Adam_Page_, MarkMcCarthy, StefanS, jcraig, Matt_King
19:00:24 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:00:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:32 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, chlane; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
19:00:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
19:49:28 [jamesn]
s/scribe:clane/scribe:chlane/
19:49:42 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:49:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
19:52:07 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
19:52:18 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:52:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/01/12-aria-minutes.html jamesn
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