17:27:55 RRSAgent has joined #a11yedge 17:28:00 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/19-a11yedge-irc 17:28:20 rrsagent, make log public 17:28:41 Meeting: A11yEdge Teleconference 17:28:48 Date: 19 Dec 2022 17:29:41 agenda+ Welcome 17:30:11 agenda+ Additional introductions and W3C expectations review (as needed) 17:30:28 agenda+ Discussion of the Draft Overlays Document 17:30:48 agenda+ Reminder of next meeting time 17:31:24 janina has changed the topic to: A11yEdge Teleconference; Monday 19 January at 1800Z 17:38:38 Chair: Janina 17:48:45 Lionel has joined #a11yedge 17:48:50 agenda? 17:54:54 present+ 18:00:43 present+ 18:00:47 https://a11yedge.github.io/overlays/ 18:01:34 chaals has joined #A11yEdge 18:04:33 present+ 18:10:00 present+ Lionel, Bev 18:10:04 Regrets: Derek 18:10:14 scribe: Chaals 18:10:34 Meeting: Acccessibility on the Edge 18:11:50 Bev: I work in various groups at W3C, NIST, et al, retired from employment... 18:12:32 Lionel: I am COO of ?? - have been working in accessibility for a while, on automation inter alia, and going to see Wagner in Feb (I'm a musician too) 18:15:30 Chaals: I've been working in standards for quarter-century, was working for WAI a long time ago, currently working as lead Standards Architect at ConsenSys (Ethereum company) 18:16:02 ... and seconded as Technical Program Director to Enterprise Ethereum Alliance. 18:16:50 Chaals: Suggest using a github issue that asks people to leave an introduction as a comment on the issue. 18:16:55 https://github.com/a11yedge 18:17:53 [general agreement] 18:18:11 -> https://github.com/a11yedge/community/issues/1 introductions - please leave a comment introducing yourself 18:20:07 Topic: intro to what we're doing 18:20:52 JS: started with the controversy over overlays - they cna be problematic but they can also be useful tools. But the scope is broader than that, about stuff done at the edge in general. 18:21:17 ... APA group had some good discussions with groups at W3C TPAC event... 18:22:25 ... might want to use secure privacy-preserving credentials to set up things we used to try to do with Stylesheets - e.g. carry settings across devices... 18:23:01 ... or what happens when you need a legal document, and want that to be in accessible form. 18:24:11 ... but we started with overlays, looking at a definition of them and identifying anti-patterns in current deployment. Think we should distinguish those that work on the fly vs those that are user-directed. 18:25:59 ... Would like to move our draft forward... 18:26:46 scribe+ Lionel 18:28:02 chaals: We don't need so much of a definition of it, more 'what does it do' 18:29:00 ... I can think of various overlays, also from other domains 18:29:15 ... it's important to identify patterns as well as anti-patterns 18:29:28 ... to help people reason about which parts they want, and which they don't... 18:30:14 ... and even find ways to identify virtuous patterns, and even integrate parts of various overlay behaviors together 18:30:59 Janina: There may be more than one thing that has overlaid the rendering, and a conflict resolution might be valuable 18:31:02 Chaals: Yes, that would be nice. 18:31:30 Janina: That's a goal. How do we get there - let's define good behaviour as well as bad behaviour 18:31:56 Lionel: I am happy to go without a really strong definition (although I like having one). We've heard that idea before... 18:32:05 ... focus on the outcomes might be helpful. 18:32:54 ... Agree that a catalogue of what it does would be helpful. Then we get into things like descriptions we can build on. 18:33:14 Janina: Action seems to be adding a section for beneficial applications. 18:33:26 ... under development 18:34:31 Lionel: "Virtuous Patterns" that add outcomes that are desirable, and "Anti-Patterns" doing things that are not desirable. 18:34:52 Janina: Things that you can't turn off might be even worse than an anti-pattern, because there is no way to control it. 18:36:09 chaals: If we label 'good' pattern and 'bad' pattern, we might be in for a lot of argument 18:36:21 ... start with, he's what overlays do. What is the goal and the eventual impact. 18:36:47 .. Proposing the header, "What Overlays Do" 18:37:21 Lionel: Like it better than trying to call things good and bad ... value language leads to difficulties. 18:37:53 chaals: At some point we will have value-laden language, as the key is the measurable impact on users 18:38:10 ... if the measurable impact is a positive, then that's good. If the impact is not good, that's not a win. 18:40:08 Janina: Any technology that can be useful can be a problem. So we get to "what is an overlay trying to do, how does that work out, what makes the difference?" 18:41:52 Lionel: We do need to get beyond the "this technology is all bad" simplifications to point out the useful bits (and guide people away from the bad bits) 18:43:43 Chaals: Is there a list of overlays we can look at... 18:43:51 Lionel: Karl Groves made one... 18:44:43 Janina: Make sure we have permission to use whatever we are using. 18:47:18 -> https://overlayfactsheet.com/#strengths-and-weaknesses-of-overlay-widgets A discussion of what's good and bad, but that has a list of overlay providers we can look at as a source ... 18:47:37 Lionel: Do we ask them? Do we look at the websites? 18:48:33 chaals: Start by everyone taking one, and collect a (messy) list, this does this, and this, and this 18:48:41 ... then once we start getting the information together 18:48:45 ... we can look for ways to group it 18:57:18 -> https://github.com/a11yedge/overlays/issues/1 an issue describing a list of tools to review 18:57:32 Chaals: I'll take on "Amaze" - see https://github.com/a11yedge/overlays/issues/2 18:57:55 Lionel: I'll take on my own tool first :) 18:59:21 Topic: Next meeting 18:59:50 Janina: let's not try boxing day or January 2 ... 18:59:58 RESOLUTION: Next meeting 9 January 19:00:05 rrasagent, draft minutes 19:00:20 s/rrasagent, draft minutes// 19:00:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:00:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/19-a11yedge-minutes.html chaals