IRC log of a11yedge on 2022-12-19

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17:27:55 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #a11yedge
17:28:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/19-a11yedge-irc
17:28:20 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
17:28:41 [janina]
Meeting: A11yEdge Teleconference
17:28:48 [janina]
Date: 19 Dec 2022
17:29:41 [janina]
agenda+ Welcome
17:30:11 [janina]
agenda+ Additional introductions and W3C expectations review (as needed)
17:30:28 [janina]
agenda+ Discussion of the Draft Overlays Document
17:30:48 [janina]
agenda+ Reminder of next meeting time
17:31:24 [janina]
janina has changed the topic to: A11yEdge Teleconference; Monday 19 January at 1800Z
17:38:38 [janina]
Chair: Janina
17:48:45 [Lionel]
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17:48:50 [Lionel]
agenda?
17:54:54 [janina]
present+
18:00:43 [Lionel]
present+
18:00:47 [Lionel]
https://a11yedge.github.io/overlays/
18:01:34 [chaals]
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18:04:33 [chaals]
present+
18:10:00 [chaals]
present+ Lionel, Bev
18:10:04 [chaals]
Regrets: Derek
18:10:14 [chaals]
scribe: Chaals
18:10:34 [chaals]
Meeting: Acccessibility on the Edge
18:11:50 [chaals]
Bev: I work in various groups at W3C, NIST, et al, retired from employment...
18:12:32 [chaals]
Lionel: I am COO of ?? - have been working in accessibility for a while, on automation inter alia, and going to see Wagner in Feb (I'm a musician too)
18:15:30 [chaals]
Chaals: I've been working in standards for quarter-century, was working for WAI a long time ago, currently working as lead Standards Architect at ConsenSys (Ethereum company)
18:16:02 [chaals]
... and seconded as Technical Program Director to Enterprise Ethereum Alliance.
18:16:50 [chaals]
Chaals: Suggest using a github issue that asks people to leave an introduction as a comment on the issue.
18:16:55 [Lionel]
https://github.com/a11yedge
18:17:53 [chaals]
[general agreement]
18:18:11 [chaals]
-> https://github.com/a11yedge/community/issues/1 introductions - please leave a comment introducing yourself
18:20:07 [chaals]
Topic: intro to what we're doing
18:20:52 [chaals]
JS: started with the controversy over overlays - they cna be problematic but they can also be useful tools. But the scope is broader than that, about stuff done at the edge in general.
18:21:17 [chaals]
... APA group had some good discussions with groups at W3C TPAC event...
18:22:25 [chaals]
... might want to use secure privacy-preserving credentials to set up things we used to try to do with Stylesheets - e.g. carry settings across devices...
18:23:01 [chaals]
... or what happens when you need a legal document, and want that to be in accessible form.
18:24:11 [chaals]
... but we started with overlays, looking at a definition of them and identifying anti-patterns in current deployment. Think we should distinguish those that work on the fly vs those that are user-directed.
18:25:59 [chaals]
... Would like to move our draft forward...
18:26:46 [Lionel]
scribe+ Lionel
18:28:02 [Lionel]
chaals: We don't need so much of a definition of it, more 'what does it do'
18:29:00 [Lionel]
... I can think of various overlays, also from other domains
18:29:15 [Lionel]
... it's important to identify patterns as well as anti-patterns
18:29:28 [Lionel]
... to help people reason about which parts they want, and which they don't...
18:30:14 [Lionel]
... and even find ways to identify virtuous patterns, and even integrate parts of various overlay behaviors together
18:30:59 [chaals]
Janina: There may be more than one thing that has overlaid the rendering, and a conflict resolution might be valuable
18:31:02 [chaals]
Chaals: Yes, that would be nice.
18:31:30 [chaals]
Janina: That's a goal. How do we get there - let's define good behaviour as well as bad behaviour
18:31:56 [chaals]
Lionel: I am happy to go without a really strong definition (although I like having one). We've heard that idea before...
18:32:05 [chaals]
... focus on the outcomes might be helpful.
18:32:54 [chaals]
... Agree that a catalogue of what it does would be helpful. Then we get into things like descriptions we can build on.
18:33:14 [chaals]
Janina: Action seems to be adding a section for beneficial applications.
18:33:26 [chaals]
... under development
18:34:31 [chaals]
Lionel: "Virtuous Patterns" that add outcomes that are desirable, and "Anti-Patterns" doing things that are not desirable.
18:34:52 [chaals]
Janina: Things that you can't turn off might be even worse than an anti-pattern, because there is no way to control it.
18:36:09 [Lionel]
chaals: If we label 'good' pattern and 'bad' pattern, we might be in for a lot of argument
18:36:21 [Lionel]
... start with, he's what overlays do. What is the goal and the eventual impact.
18:36:47 [Lionel]
.. Proposing the header, "What Overlays Do"
18:37:21 [chaals]
Lionel: Like it better than trying to call things good and bad ... value language leads to difficulties.
18:37:53 [Lionel]
chaals: At some point we will have value-laden language, as the key is the measurable impact on users
18:38:10 [Lionel]
... if the measurable impact is a positive, then that's good. If the impact is not good, that's not a win.
18:40:08 [chaals]
Janina: Any technology that can be useful can be a problem. So we get to "what is an overlay trying to do, how does that work out, what makes the difference?"
18:41:52 [chaals]
Lionel: We do need to get beyond the "this technology is all bad" simplifications to point out the useful bits (and guide people away from the bad bits)
18:43:43 [chaals]
Chaals: Is there a list of overlays we can look at...
18:43:51 [chaals]
Lionel: Karl Groves made one...
18:44:43 [chaals]
Janina: Make sure we have permission to use whatever we are using.
18:47:18 [chaals]
-> https://overlayfactsheet.com/#strengths-and-weaknesses-of-overlay-widgets A discussion of what's good and bad, but that has a list of overlay providers we can look at as a source ...
18:47:37 [chaals]
Lionel: Do we ask them? Do we look at the websites?
18:48:33 [Lionel]
chaals: Start by everyone taking one, and collect a (messy) list, this does this, and this, and this
18:48:41 [Lionel]
... then once we start getting the information together
18:48:45 [Lionel]
... we can look for ways to group it
18:57:18 [chaals]
-> https://github.com/a11yedge/overlays/issues/1 an issue describing a list of tools to review
18:57:32 [chaals]
Chaals: I'll take on "Amaze" - see https://github.com/a11yedge/overlays/issues/2
18:57:55 [chaals]
Lionel: I'll take on my own tool first :)
18:59:21 [chaals]
Topic: Next meeting
18:59:50 [chaals]
Janina: let's not try boxing day or January 2 ...
18:59:58 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Next meeting 9 January
19:00:05 [chaals]
rrasagent, draft minutes
19:00:20 [chaals]
s/rrasagent, draft minutes//
19:00:23 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:00:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/19-a11yedge-minutes.html chaals