17:00:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
17:00:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-irc
17:00:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
17:00:21 <ktk> present+
17:00:23 <pchampin> present+
17:00:26 <ora> present+
17:00:26 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
17:00:36 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG
17:00:50 <pchampin> chair: ora
17:01:24 <AndyS> present+
17:01:48 <gtw> present+
17:01:53 <AZ> present+
17:01:59 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
17:02:05 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
17:02:22 <pchampin> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:03:14 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:03:17 <TallTed> present+
17:03:19 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:03:41 <olaf> present+
17:05:24 <pchampin> https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
17:05:28 <Enrico> Enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:05:35 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:05:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:05:52 <Enrico> p+
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17:06:46 <Dominik_T> present+
17:06:49 <Enrico> present+
17:06:51 <pchampin> scribe: olaf
17:07:19 <ora> PROPOSED: Approve last week's minutes
17:07:26 <pchampin> +1
17:07:27 <olaf> +1
17:07:29 <ora> +1
17:07:30 <ktk> +1
17:07:31 <Dominik_T> +1
17:07:36 <gtw> +1
17:07:43 <AZ> +1
17:07:46 <TallTed> s|minutes|minutes https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:07:50 <TallTed> +1
17:07:53 <Enrico> +1
17:08:19 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:08:24 <Souri> present+
17:08:50 <AZ> But we need to approve the minutes of all the past meetings
17:08:59 <AndyS> +1
17:10:10 <ora> RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes
17:10:19 <pchampin> previous minutes: https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:10:26 <pchampin> ... https://www.w3.org/2022/11/17-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:10:32 <pchampin> ... https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:10:50 <ora> PROPOSED: Approve earlier meetings' minutes
17:10:59 <ktk> +1
17:11:01 <ora> +1
17:11:02 <Dominik_T> +1
17:11:03 <pchampin> +1
17:11:04 <Enrico> +1
17:11:05 <olaf> +1
17:11:16 <gtw> +1
17:11:25 <TallTed> s|RESOLUTION: Approve last week's minutes|RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:11:27 <AZ> +1
17:11:31 <TallTed> +1
17:12:06 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve earlier meetings' minutes
17:12:22 <olaf> ora: agenda items ...
17:12:29 <olaf> ... discussion on the public m.list
17:12:36 <olaf> ... home work assignments
17:13:02 <olaf> ... naming of the documents
17:13:10 <olaf> ... Let's begin with the naming
17:13:27 <pchampin> topic: Naming of the specifications
17:13:48 <olaf> pchampin: sent email to the mailing list
17:14:03 <olaf> ... current naming of RDF RECs is a mess
17:14:14 <pchampin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2022Dec/0024.html
17:14:17 <olaf> ... b/c long history and high number of docs
17:14:17 <ora> q+
17:14:42 <olaf> ... created mapping
17:15:03 <olaf> ... propose to prefix all specs with 'rdf12-'
17:15:36 <olaf> ... and in favor of having 'rdf-*' links point to the latest versions of the specs
17:15:51 <ora> ack ora
17:16:05 <olaf> ... unless there is a reason for multiple versions to cooexist, which is not the case at the moment
17:16:16 <olaf> ora: Thanks for creating the diagram!
17:16:17 <gtw> q+ to ask if that rdf12- prefix is suggested even for sparql specs
17:16:58 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/TR/html4/
17:17:13 <olaf> TallTed: nowadays superceeded docs need to contain a note saying that it is superceeded
17:17:40 <olaf> pchampin: yes, HTML spec is an example
17:17:44 <ora> ack gtw
17:17:44 <Zakim> gtw, you wanted to ask if that rdf12- prefix is suggested even for sparql specs
17:17:47 <olaf> ... and we should do that for consistency
17:17:48 <pchampin> s/HTML/HTML4/
17:18:16 <olaf> gtw: was the proposal about 'rdf12-' for all specs (incl. SPARQL-related ones)?
17:18:32 <olaf> pchampin: no, not necessarily for the SPARQL-related ones
17:18:45 <AndyS> q+
17:18:48 <ora> q+
17:18:55 <olaf> ... but the question may be raised for Turtle and other serialization formats
17:18:57 <gtw> maybe we could have redirects /turtle -> /rdf12-turtle
17:19:09 <ora> ack AndyS
17:19:28 <ora> ack ora
17:19:30 <olaf> AndyS: we can have redirects, as suggested by gtw in the chat
17:20:16 <olaf> ora: My question was what happens if we choose this naming convention now, how much trouble would we have if we realize later that it wasn't the best decision
17:20:32 <olaf> pchampin: we don't need a strong decision now
17:20:50 <olaf> ... but once we publish the first public working draft
17:20:53 <ora> q?
17:20:58 <olaf> ora: we shouldn't take this decision lightly
17:21:07 <TallTed> "SPARQL" being "SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language" I suggest we *do* use the rdf12- prefix on it, and ensure that all specs we touch are synchronized (unlike SPARQL 1.1 being based on RDF 1.0, while RDF 1.1 has no query language yet)
17:21:31 <olaf> pchampin: two questions actually 1/ how do we name our new versions 2/ ... (?)
17:21:40 <AndyS> q+
17:21:42 <ora> q+
17:22:00 <olaf> TallTed: all specs should be synchronized in terms of naming, including the SPARQL-related ones
17:22:02 <ora> ack AndyS
17:22:53 <olaf> AndyS: SPARQL 1.1 was designed for for RDF 1.0 and RDF 1.1 -- i.e., if you feed RDF 1.0 into it, you get RDF 1.0 out; if you feed RDF 1.1 to it, you get RDF 1.1
17:23:04 <olaf> TallTed: that's not clear from the spec
17:23:13 <olaf> AndyS: there was no RDF 1.1 at the time
17:23:44 <olaf> s/for for/for both
17:24:13 <ora> ack ora
17:24:41 <olaf> ora: I like TallTed's suggestion to prefix everything with 'rdf12-'
17:24:47 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 :: https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/
17:25:03 <olaf> ... any objections?
17:25:30 <olaf> AndyS: Would we put redirects for SPARQL-related naming convention?
17:25:57 <gtw> q+ to ask what happens if we have another bump on the sparql version without a corresponding rdf bump? rdf12-sparql13-query ?
17:26:01 <TallTed> I would redirect from https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ to https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-sparql-query/ and move the current https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ to https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf10-sparql10-query/ (or sparql11)
17:26:29 <olaf> AndyS: expectation for SPARQL might be that the next one would be sparql12-query
17:26:56 <olaf> ora: no conflict with new naming convensions if we add redirects
17:28:15 <olaf> pchampin: official name is REC-...
17:28:27 <olaf> ... the short names are already aliases only
17:29:05 <olaf> ora: so, short names could be redirected already now without causing problems for expectations for the old versions
17:29:18 <ktk> q+
17:29:19 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/standards/history/rdf-schema
17:29:36 <gtw> I would be more comfortable if we had an explicit list of the proposed names, not just a wildcard pattern.
17:29:39 <olaf> pchampin: history of short names
17:30:03 <olaf> ... convenient for browsing the old versions
17:30:39 <ora> PROPOSED: Adopt spec naming scheme which prefixes all our docs with "rdf12-" + add redirects from existing short names to the new docs
17:30:46 <pchampin> +1
17:30:47 <TallTed> +1
17:30:51 <ora> +1
17:30:53 <Dominik_T> +1
17:30:55 <olaf> ora: proposal to adopt naming scheme to prefix all our docs with 'rdf12-' and add redirects for the short names
17:31:15 <olaf> gtw: tension between the SPARQL-related names and the RDF-related names
17:31:33 <pchampin> q+
17:31:35 <olaf> ... because there was not always a 1:1 mapping between the version
17:31:43 <olaf> ... e.g., there is a SPARQL 1.2 CG at the moment
17:31:47 <pchampin> q++
17:32:06 <olaf> ora: we are taking over docs
17:32:17 <ktk> q-
17:32:17 <olaf> ... whatever the name of that doc, we prefix it
17:32:17 <TallTed> the SPARQL 1.2 CG (and its repo) can be renamed/moved
17:32:32 <olaf> gtw: but some of these docs already have version numbers
17:32:55 <olaf> pchampin: shouldn't much of a problem if we make these standards open to adding new features
17:33:04 <olaf> ... "living standards"
17:33:25 <olaf> ... i.e., same REC with the same version but with more features added
17:33:58 <olaf> ... if we go in this direction, not much of a problem for the SPARQL 1.2 CG
17:34:23 <olaf> ... because they wouldn't need to start a new version
17:34:46 <olaf> gtw: so, two version numbers in the name of the updated SPARQL spec?
17:34:59 <olaf> pchampin: no, that was not how I understood it
17:35:13 <olaf> ora: think of it like "forks"
17:35:35 <olaf> ... but maybe we need to "sharpen" the definition that I was proposing
17:35:44 <ktk> q+
17:35:51 <gtw> q-
17:35:55 <olaf> ... like the idea that the only version number in the name is the 1.2 for RDF
17:36:06 <ora> ack pchampin
17:36:14 <ora> ack +
17:36:23 <olaf> pchampin: system might not even support/permit two version numbers in aname
17:36:27 <ora> ack ktk
17:36:30 <olaf> s/aname/a name
17:36:41 <olaf> ktk: same concerns at gtw
17:37:04 <ora> q+
17:37:07 <olaf> ... last time we said we like the overview/entry doc that SPARQL has
17:37:24 <olaf> ... and we would do something similar for the RDF-related docs
17:38:05 <pchampin> in a way, the RDF primer plays a similar role to the SPARQL overview doc
17:38:05 <olaf> ... if we have that, this may avoid such issues about the version numbers in the names
17:38:10 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-primer/
17:38:21 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-overview/
17:38:21 <ora> ack ora
17:38:33 <olaf> ... prefer to have the version number in the names of all docs
17:38:49 <olaf> ora: in this case, it may be useful to have that overview doc first
17:39:09 <olaf> ... including a list of all the docs that we will have
17:39:22 <olaf> ... let#s have such a list first
17:39:50 <olaf> ... then, we can discuss it on the mailing list, including discussing possible names for them
17:39:55 <olaf> s/let#s/let's
17:40:08 <pchampin> ACTION: pchampin to write a full proposal of all document names
17:40:09 <ghurlbot> Created https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/issues/55 -> action 55 write a full proposal of all document names (on ) due 22 Dec 2022
17:40:11 <olaf> pchampin: I can make a proposal of such a list
17:40:29 <AndyS> Please include the *-12 style.
17:41:07 <olaf> ora: from a W3C perspective, better to make this decision now rather than getting into trouble later
17:41:38 <olaf> AndyS: to pchampin, please also include the options with the '-12' in the end of the names
17:42:05 <olaf> topic: What are big missing things from the CG spec?
17:42:25 <olaf> ora: we need some vocab so that we can use RDF-star in a schema
17:42:45 <olaf> ... I would like to be able to define an RDFS schema so that I can use RDF-star
17:42:49 <pchampin> and SHACL shapes
17:43:01 <ktk> q+
17:43:10 <olaf> ... additionally, we need to make sure that we understand the ramifications of the formal semantics
17:43:12 <ora> ack ktk
17:43:29 <olaf> ktk: Turtle is a subset of N3
17:43:42 <pchampin> q+
17:43:48 <AndyS> +1 to SHACL (though it's not mentioned in charter)
17:43:49 <olaf> ... with the current Turtle-star syntax we might break that?
17:43:54 <ora> ack pchampin
17:43:59 <olaf> ... was/is that a concern?
17:44:21 <olaf> pchampin: there is an implementation of N3 that includes RDF-star
17:44:39 <olaf> ora: that topic should go on the list
17:44:50 <olaf> pchampin: there is a CG for N3
17:44:59 <olaf> ... not same level of maturity
17:45:09 <olaf> ... we should liason with that group
17:45:17 <olaf> ... Doerthe is in that group
17:45:32 <olaf> ora: yes, we can do that
17:45:54 <olaf> ... the point now, however, is a comprehensive list of things
17:46:04 <olaf> ... Enrico had some thoughts?
17:46:11 <pchampin> coming back to the vocabulary, there is a first attempt at https://www.w3.org/2021/12/rdf-star.html#rdf-star-vocabulary
17:46:35 <olaf> Enrico: not clear to me if the motivation is focused completely on the reification use case
17:46:58 <ora> q+
17:47:12 <olaf> ... example "I believe that John is dead" versus "I believe that the date of ... mariage ..."
17:47:28 <olaf> ... I believe that RDF-star is about reification
17:48:17 <olaf> ... not about believe use case ("I believe John is dead") because "John is dead" is not a resource
17:48:51 <olaf> ... the old examples of RDF* should not be the object of the discussion now
17:49:05 <olaf> ... there should be complete transparency in RDF-star
17:49:09 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:49:23 <olaf> ... not opacity
17:49:45 <gkellogg> regrets+
17:50:07 <olaf> ... I suspect that the reason for having opacity is about the confusion of ... (?)
17:50:56 <olaf> ... it should be the job of N3 to be about unasserted statements
17:51:08 <olaf> ... / believes
17:51:11 <ora> ack ora
17:51:57 <olaf> ora: the mailing list would be a could place to put these thoughts
17:52:12 <olaf> ora: earlier reference to modal logical
17:52:24 <olaf> Enrico: reification is something else
17:53:27 <olaf> ora: Enrico, please compose an email to the mailing list to make clear what your thoughts are so that we can discuss them
17:54:30 <olaf> ... discussions about asserted and/or quoted triples are needed
17:55:00 <olaf> ... the home work stands, let#s use the mailing list
17:55:22 <olaf> ... so that we can quickly get an understanding of the full scope of the work ahead
17:55:29 <olaf> s/let#s/let's
17:55:34 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:55:43 <olaf> ... we have a meeting next week
17:55:49 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:56:06 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:56:09 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:56:18 <olaf> AndyS: since not everyone can come to next week's meeting, would that be a non-decision-making meeting?
17:56:26 <olaf> ora: yes
17:57:10 <pchampin> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:57:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
17:57:34 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
17:57:39 <Souri> quit
17:57:44 <Enrico> quit
17:58:43 <TallTed> previous meeting -- https://www.w3.org/2022/12/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:58:43 <TallTed> next meeting -- https://www.w3.org/2022/12/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:58:49 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:58:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:59:19 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
17:59:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ktk, pchampin, ora, AndyS, gtw, AZ, TallTed, olaf, Dominik_T, Enrico, Souri
17:59:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:59:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:24 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:59:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:59:30 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
17:59:30 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
17:59:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pchampin to write a full proposal of all document names [1]
17:59:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2022/12/15-rdf-star-irc#T17-40-08
17:59:35 <ghurlbot> Created https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/issues/56 -> action 56 write a full proposal of all document names [1] (on ) due 22 Dec 2022