IRC log of wcag2ict on 2022-12-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-wcag2ict-irc
14:55:35 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:55:36 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
14:55:39 [maryjom]
agenda?
14:55:47 [maryjom]
chair: Mary Jo Mueller
14:56:05 [maryjom]
meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:56:18 [maryjom]
zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:56:18 [Zakim]
ok, maryjom
14:56:26 [maryjom]
Agenda+ Announcements
14:56:34 [maryjom]
Agenda+ AG WG guidance to TF on scope of changes the TF can make
14:56:44 [maryjom]
Agenda+ Survey: Draft background section
14:56:54 [maryjom]
Agenda+ Survey: Review proposed changes to guidelines
14:57:04 [maryjom]
Agenda+ Survey: Initial look at draft for 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose
14:57:21 [maryjom]
regrets: Chris Loiselle, Bruce Bailey, Laura Miller, Bryan Trogdon
14:57:35 [Devanshu]
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14:57:50 [FernandaBonnin]
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15:00:04 [Mike_Pluke]
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15:00:12 [Chuck]
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15:00:47 [maryjom]
present+
15:00:47 [ThorstenKatzmann]
present+
15:00:48 [shadi]
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15:00:49 [Devanshu]
present+
15:00:54 [shadi]
present+
15:00:54 [Mike_Pluke]
present+
15:00:57 [loicmn]
present+
15:00:59 [GreggVan]
present+
15:01:40 [pday]
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15:01:43 [pday]
present+
15:02:20 [FernandaBonnin_]
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15:02:22 [Chuck]
zakim, pick a scribe
15:02:22 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose shadi
15:02:25 [daniel-montalvo]
present+ Daniel
15:02:28 [FernandaBonnin_]
present+
15:02:57 [shadi]
scribe: shadi
15:03:18 [Sam]
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15:03:29 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:03:51 [shadi]
MJM: markdown conversion has now been merged
15:04:45 [shadi]
...details to be worked out
15:05:03 [shadi]
...some things missing in the published Editor Draft
15:05:11 [shadi]
...but these changes coming soon
15:05:29 [shadi]
MJM: have new person joining the Task Force
15:05:38 [shadi]
...Loic Martinez-Normand
15:05:57 [shadi]
LMN: work at the University of Madrid
15:06:08 [shadi]
...have been heavily involved in EN 301 549
15:06:22 [shadi]
...and the previous Task Force on WCAG2ICT
15:07:11 [MichaelC]
present+
15:07:46 [FernandaBonnin_]
+1 to have more time to review
15:07:53 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:07:53 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- AG WG guidance to TF on scope of changes the TF can make -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:08:11 [maryjom]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Draft-discussion/results#xQ1
15:08:24 [maryjom]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-guidelines/results#xQ1
15:08:54 [shadi]
MJM: looked at this before without modifications
15:09:16 [shadi]
...comment from Bruce in the first survey
15:09:25 [maryjom]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/20#issuecomment-1314034069
15:09:59 [shadi]
^^^ comment from Bruce and follow-up from Thorsten
15:10:27 [shadi]
...Laura has been trying to connect with Bruce on this issue
15:10:59 [olivia-hogan-stark]
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15:11:14 [olivia-hogan-stark]
present+
15:11:30 [GreggVan]
q+
15:11:38 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:12:00 [shadi]
GV: maybe say "not addressed in the original WCAG2ICT"
15:12:18 [Sam]
Sam has joined #wcag2ict
15:12:31 [Mike_Pluke]
+1 to Gregg's proposed addition
15:13:09 [shadi]
MJM: sounds good, adding the word "original" in the text
15:13:57 [Sam]
present+
15:14:00 [shadi]
MJM: comment from Chris
15:14:20 [GreggVan]
+1
15:14:21 [shadi]
...be consistent about non-web documents and non-web software
15:14:54 [shadi]
MJM: Loic agreed with comments from Thorsten and Bruce
15:14:59 [shadi]
...and that's it
15:15:12 [shadi]
...just need to incorporate these edits
15:15:21 [pday]
q+
15:15:22 [shadi]
...nothing seems controversial
15:15:26 [shadi]
...any comments?
15:15:27 [maryjom]
ack pday
15:16:30 [shadi]
PD: small recap of what will happen?
15:16:49 [shadi]
MJM: some people proposed changes, others might be done by Laura
15:17:23 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:17:23 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Survey: Draft background section -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:17:49 [Chuck]
agenda?
15:18:02 [Chuck]
zakim, take up item 4
15:18:02 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Survey: Review proposed changes to guidelines -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:18:12 [AnastasiaLanz]
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15:18:16 [maryjom]
: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-guidelines/results
15:18:29 [AnastasiaLanz]
present+
15:18:49 [shadi]
MJM: two suggested changes
15:18:58 [shadi]
...Gregg suggesting change to the intent
15:19:02 [GreggVan]
q+
15:19:09 [Chuck]
q+
15:19:49 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:20:03 [shadi]
GV: proposed to the AGWG Chairs
15:20:18 [shadi]
...will be taken up there
15:20:30 [shadi]
MJM: has an issue been opened?
15:20:49 [shadi]
GV: don't know but it will get fixed, and we don't need to worry about it
15:21:42 [maryjom]
ack chuck
15:22:01 [shadi]
CA: don't know if issue has been opened, can take that offline
15:22:27 [shadi]
...while this particular instance can be accommodated, we're finalizing WCAG 2.2
15:22:41 [GreggVan]
q+
15:22:51 [shadi]
...cannot depend on further changes in the future
15:23:09 [shadi]
...need to work with the existing text
15:23:39 [shadi]
...ought not to create dependencies on future changes
15:24:35 [maryjom]
q?
15:24:39 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:24:55 [shadi]
GV: suggest we reconsider that decision
15:25:37 [shadi]
...last WCAG2ICT effort found many issues in the Understanding docs
15:25:40 [shadi]
q+
15:25:59 [shadi]
...improves accuracy for everyone
15:26:27 [shadi]
...do not expect many issues
15:26:38 [shadi]
...but these are Notes, not normative documents
15:27:00 [maryjom]
ack shadi
15:27:28 [Chuck]
q+
15:27:46 [pday]
ack Chuck
15:27:56 [shadi]
SAZ: thought some level of support is in the AGWG Charter
15:28:29 [shadi]
CA: just cannot guarantee, can't depend on it
15:28:40 [shadi]
GV: ah, got it
15:28:44 [shadi]
...that makes sense
15:29:26 [shadi]
MJM: so we'll continue tracking issues and submitting to AGWG
15:29:41 [shadi]
...not depend on that but they may or might not make the changes
15:29:47 [shadi]
q+
15:29:52 [loicmn]
q+
15:30:22 [pday]
ack loicmn
15:30:49 [shadi]
LMN: now better understand what AGWG can and cannot do
15:31:31 [GreggVan]
q+
15:31:39 [shadi]
...in some software context, you might not be able to do anything about GL 2.5
15:31:52 [maryjom]
ack shadi
15:31:53 [shadi]
...maybe need to add a note for that
15:32:22 [Chuck]
shadi: Minor on summary earlier, maybe one thing to increase chances if we do find an issue, is make a good proposal...
15:32:51 [GreggVan]
+1 to including a specific solution with an issue
15:32:57 [Chuck]
shadi: The easier it is for AGWG to incorporate a requested change the more likely it is that AGWG can adopt. Make it as easy as possible.
15:32:58 [Chuck]
+1
15:33:00 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:33:17 [shadi]
GV: +1 to send issue with solution
15:33:31 [shadi]
...on Loic's point, Guidelines are not required
15:33:44 [shadi]
...so either we don't look at them at all
15:34:19 [shadi]
...they are often broad statements that can't be addressed as such
15:34:37 [maryjom]
+1 to Gregg's comment
15:34:40 [shadi]
...or we should treat them as big broad statements and not spend too much effort on them
15:35:00 [loicmn]
+1 to Gregg's comment
15:35:02 [Mike_Pluke]
q+
15:35:13 [maryjom]
ack Mike_Pluke
15:36:07 [maryjom]
q+
15:36:14 [shadi]
MP: maybe we can scope the applicability to where it definitely applies
15:36:16 [maryjom]
ack maryjom
15:36:16 [GreggVan]
q+
15:36:51 [shadi]
MJM: does the EN make any references to the Guidelines?
15:37:22 [shadi]
MP: no, but maybe we can apply the same approach we use in EN 301 549 to scope criteria
15:37:29 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:37:50 [shadi]
GV: suggest we just skip the Guidelines
15:38:17 [shadi]
...if we start scoping and clarifying, it might draw more attention than needed and confuse people
15:38:21 [loicmn]
+1 to "skip" Guidelines as proposed by Gregg. We can just say "Guideline n.n applies as written".
15:38:34 [maryjom]
Draft Resolution: Incorporate the Guidelines changes as-is and open an issue on the WCAG understanding to address Gregg’s comment.
15:38:36 [shadi]
...they are also not applied in practice for web content either
15:39:05 [loicmn]
+1 to resolution
15:39:06 [Devanshu]
+1
15:39:07 [AnastasiaLanz]
+1
15:39:08 [Mike_Pluke]
+1
15:39:09 [olivia-hogan-stark]
+1
15:39:09 [GreggVan]
+1
15:39:10 [maryjom]
+1
15:39:11 [FernandaBonnin_]
+1
15:39:11 [ThorstenKatzmann]
+1
15:39:12 [shadi]
+1
15:39:14 [pday]
+1
15:39:16 [Sam]
+1
15:39:31 [Chuck]
12 +1's, no 0's, no -1's
15:39:37 [maryjom]
RESOLUTION: : Incorporate the Guidelines changes as-is and open an issue on the WCAG understanding to address Gregg’s comment.
15:40:07 [shadi]
zakim, take up next
15:40:07 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Survey: Draft background section -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:40:20 [Chuck]
agenda?
15:40:25 [daniel-montalvo]
s: Inc/Inc/
15:40:28 [Chuck]
zakim, take up item 5
15:40:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Survey: Initial look at draft for 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose -- taken up [from maryjom]
15:41:06 [maryjom]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Identify-input-purpose/results
15:42:54 [loicmn]
q+
15:43:35 [shadi]
LMN: inconsistencies between the terms listed in both docs
15:44:31 [shadi]
...adding notes in the Annex like we did in EN 301 549
15:45:37 [shadi]
FB: not the same list, just wanted to highlight that
15:46:14 [shadi]
...need to refine the granularity in the note
15:46:30 [shadi]
MJM: maybe also need a section about user interface components
15:47:02 [GreggVan]
q+
15:47:09 [maryjom]
ack loicmn
15:47:10 [daniel-montalvo]
q?
15:47:15 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:47:49 [Devanshu]
q+
15:47:57 [shadi]
GV: not sure why it doesn't apply to certain types of software
15:48:18 [shadi]
...it seems to apply to web apps for example
15:48:22 [maryjom]
ack Devanshu
15:48:34 [shadi]
DC: agree with Gregg
15:49:23 [shadi]
...both iOS and Android have attributes for names
15:49:49 [shadi]
...it wasn't applicable before but it now applies
15:49:51 [Chuck]
q+ to note that the standard is currently scoped to personal information.
15:50:10 [GreggVan]
q+
15:50:11 [shadi]
...just the list is tricky, might not apply the same to all operating systems
15:50:17 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:50:33 [shadi]
GV: list of purposes not list of names
15:50:52 [shadi]
...so differences among operating systems should be taken care of
15:51:24 [shadi]
...need to match the name corresponding to the purpose
15:51:43 [maryjom]
ack Chuck
15:51:43 [Zakim]
Chuck, you wanted to note that the standard is currently scoped to personal information.
15:51:51 [shadi]
...won't be backwards compatible with older software that didn't have this attribute
15:52:19 [shadi]
CA: this SC is scoped to personal information, not everything in the world
15:52:49 [shadi]
...at the time, autocomplete was most supported
15:52:51 [maryjom]
q?
15:52:56 [shadi]
...this is where the list came from
15:53:40 [GreggVan]
q+
15:53:43 [Devanshu]
q+
15:53:46 [Chuck]
q+
15:53:57 [maryjom]
ack GreggVan
15:54:19 [shadi]
GV: autocomplete was one of the driving forces
15:54:22 [Chuck]
+1 it's NOT solely for autocomplete!
15:54:26 [shadi]
...but not the only use
15:54:33 [maryjom]
ack Devanshu
15:54:40 [shadi]
DC: agree with Gregg
15:54:54 [Sam]
q+
15:54:54 [shadi]
...iOS and Android both have autocomplete support
15:55:01 [maryjom]
ack Chuck
15:55:33 [shadi]
CA: definitely not solely focused on autocomplete
15:56:03 [maryjom]
ack Sam
15:56:11 [shadi]
...but it was the available mechanism at the time to leverage this functionality
15:56:32 [shadi]
SO: there are other operating systems beyond iOS and Android
15:57:07 [shadi]
MJM: need to continue this conversation next week
15:58:31 [GreggVan]
q+
15:58:56 [maryjom]
ack gr
15:58:57 [daniel-montalvo]
-me has a hard stop too
15:58:58 [Chuck]
+1 I understand that in the other case it was NOT normative.
15:59:10 [pday]
ack GreggVan
15:59:38 [shadi]
GV: often we said "this would apply if you change word X" but not "if you change the requirement"
16:00:02 [shadi]
MJM: will leave survey open
16:00:18 [shadi]
...will get back to it next week
16:00:33 [olivia-hogan-stark]
Thanks for leaving it open!
16:00:40 [AnastasiaLanz]
Thanks!
16:01:43 [maryjom]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
16:35:54 [Sam]
I would not want to inflect my horrible spelling. irc does not have spell check built into chat
16:36:44 [Sam]
I mean inflict
16:56:06 [Sam]
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