IRC log of wcag2ict on 2022-12-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-wcag2ict-irc
- 14:55:35 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 14:55:36 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), maryjom
- 14:55:39 [maryjom]
- agenda?
- 14:55:47 [maryjom]
- chair: Mary Jo Mueller
- 14:56:05 [maryjom]
- meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
- 14:56:18 [maryjom]
- zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
- 14:56:18 [Zakim]
- ok, maryjom
- 14:56:26 [maryjom]
- Agenda+ Announcements
- 14:56:34 [maryjom]
- Agenda+ AG WG guidance to TF on scope of changes the TF can make
- 14:56:44 [maryjom]
- Agenda+ Survey: Draft background section
- 14:56:54 [maryjom]
- Agenda+ Survey: Review proposed changes to guidelines
- 14:57:04 [maryjom]
- Agenda+ Survey: Initial look at draft for 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose
- 14:57:21 [maryjom]
- regrets: Chris Loiselle, Bruce Bailey, Laura Miller, Bryan Trogdon
- 14:57:35 [Devanshu]
- Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:57:50 [FernandaBonnin]
- FernandaBonnin has joined #WCAG2ICT
- 15:00:04 [Mike_Pluke]
- Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:00:12 [Chuck]
- Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:00:47 [maryjom]
- present+
- 15:00:47 [ThorstenKatzmann]
- present+
- 15:00:48 [shadi]
- shadi has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:00:49 [Devanshu]
- present+
- 15:00:54 [shadi]
- present+
- 15:00:54 [Mike_Pluke]
- present+
- 15:00:57 [loicmn]
- present+
- 15:00:59 [GreggVan]
- present+
- 15:01:40 [pday]
- pday has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:01:43 [pday]
- present+
- 15:02:20 [FernandaBonnin_]
- FernandaBonnin_ has joined #WCAG2ICT
- 15:02:22 [Chuck]
- zakim, pick a scribe
- 15:02:22 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose shadi
- 15:02:25 [daniel-montalvo]
- present+ Daniel
- 15:02:28 [FernandaBonnin_]
- present+
- 15:02:57 [shadi]
- scribe: shadi
- 15:03:18 [Sam]
- Sam has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:03:29 [shadi]
- zakim, take up agendum 1
- 15:03:29 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
- 15:03:51 [shadi]
- MJM: markdown conversion has now been merged
- 15:04:45 [shadi]
- ...details to be worked out
- 15:05:03 [shadi]
- ...some things missing in the published Editor Draft
- 15:05:11 [shadi]
- ...but these changes coming soon
- 15:05:29 [shadi]
- MJM: have new person joining the Task Force
- 15:05:38 [shadi]
- ...Loic Martinez-Normand
- 15:05:57 [shadi]
- LMN: work at the University of Madrid
- 15:06:08 [shadi]
- ...have been heavily involved in EN 301 549
- 15:06:22 [shadi]
- ...and the previous Task Force on WCAG2ICT
- 15:07:11 [MichaelC]
- present+
- 15:07:46 [FernandaBonnin_]
- +1 to have more time to review
- 15:07:53 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 15:07:53 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- AG WG guidance to TF on scope of changes the TF can make -- taken up [from maryjom]
- 15:08:11 [maryjom]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Draft-discussion/results#xQ1
- 15:08:24 [maryjom]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-guidelines/results#xQ1
- 15:08:54 [shadi]
- MJM: looked at this before without modifications
- 15:09:16 [shadi]
- ...comment from Bruce in the first survey
- 15:09:25 [maryjom]
- https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/20#issuecomment-1314034069
- 15:09:59 [shadi]
- ^^^ comment from Bruce and follow-up from Thorsten
- 15:10:27 [shadi]
- ...Laura has been trying to connect with Bruce on this issue
- 15:10:59 [olivia-hogan-stark]
- olivia-hogan-stark has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:11:14 [olivia-hogan-stark]
- present+
- 15:11:30 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:11:38 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:12:00 [shadi]
- GV: maybe say "not addressed in the original WCAG2ICT"
- 15:12:18 [Sam]
- Sam has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:12:31 [Mike_Pluke]
- +1 to Gregg's proposed addition
- 15:13:09 [shadi]
- MJM: sounds good, adding the word "original" in the text
- 15:13:57 [Sam]
- present+
- 15:14:00 [shadi]
- MJM: comment from Chris
- 15:14:20 [GreggVan]
- +1
- 15:14:21 [shadi]
- ...be consistent about non-web documents and non-web software
- 15:14:54 [shadi]
- MJM: Loic agreed with comments from Thorsten and Bruce
- 15:14:59 [shadi]
- ...and that's it
- 15:15:12 [shadi]
- ...just need to incorporate these edits
- 15:15:21 [pday]
- q+
- 15:15:22 [shadi]
- ...nothing seems controversial
- 15:15:26 [shadi]
- ...any comments?
- 15:15:27 [maryjom]
- ack pday
- 15:16:30 [shadi]
- PD: small recap of what will happen?
- 15:16:49 [shadi]
- MJM: some people proposed changes, others might be done by Laura
- 15:17:23 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 15:17:23 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- Survey: Draft background section -- taken up [from maryjom]
- 15:17:49 [Chuck]
- agenda?
- 15:18:02 [Chuck]
- zakim, take up item 4
- 15:18:02 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- Survey: Review proposed changes to guidelines -- taken up [from maryjom]
- 15:18:12 [AnastasiaLanz]
- AnastasiaLanz has joined #wcag2ict
- 15:18:16 [maryjom]
- : https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-guidelines/results
- 15:18:29 [AnastasiaLanz]
- present+
- 15:18:49 [shadi]
- MJM: two suggested changes
- 15:18:58 [shadi]
- ...Gregg suggesting change to the intent
- 15:19:02 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:19:09 [Chuck]
- q+
- 15:19:49 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:20:03 [shadi]
- GV: proposed to the AGWG Chairs
- 15:20:18 [shadi]
- ...will be taken up there
- 15:20:30 [shadi]
- MJM: has an issue been opened?
- 15:20:49 [shadi]
- GV: don't know but it will get fixed, and we don't need to worry about it
- 15:21:42 [maryjom]
- ack chuck
- 15:22:01 [shadi]
- CA: don't know if issue has been opened, can take that offline
- 15:22:27 [shadi]
- ...while this particular instance can be accommodated, we're finalizing WCAG 2.2
- 15:22:41 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:22:51 [shadi]
- ...cannot depend on further changes in the future
- 15:23:09 [shadi]
- ...need to work with the existing text
- 15:23:39 [shadi]
- ...ought not to create dependencies on future changes
- 15:24:35 [maryjom]
- q?
- 15:24:39 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:24:55 [shadi]
- GV: suggest we reconsider that decision
- 15:25:37 [shadi]
- ...last WCAG2ICT effort found many issues in the Understanding docs
- 15:25:40 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:25:59 [shadi]
- ...improves accuracy for everyone
- 15:26:27 [shadi]
- ...do not expect many issues
- 15:26:38 [shadi]
- ...but these are Notes, not normative documents
- 15:27:00 [maryjom]
- ack shadi
- 15:27:28 [Chuck]
- q+
- 15:27:46 [pday]
- ack Chuck
- 15:27:56 [shadi]
- SAZ: thought some level of support is in the AGWG Charter
- 15:28:29 [shadi]
- CA: just cannot guarantee, can't depend on it
- 15:28:40 [shadi]
- GV: ah, got it
- 15:28:44 [shadi]
- ...that makes sense
- 15:29:26 [shadi]
- MJM: so we'll continue tracking issues and submitting to AGWG
- 15:29:41 [shadi]
- ...not depend on that but they may or might not make the changes
- 15:29:47 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:29:52 [loicmn]
- q+
- 15:30:22 [pday]
- ack loicmn
- 15:30:49 [shadi]
- LMN: now better understand what AGWG can and cannot do
- 15:31:31 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:31:39 [shadi]
- ...in some software context, you might not be able to do anything about GL 2.5
- 15:31:52 [maryjom]
- ack shadi
- 15:31:53 [shadi]
- ...maybe need to add a note for that
- 15:32:22 [Chuck]
- shadi: Minor on summary earlier, maybe one thing to increase chances if we do find an issue, is make a good proposal...
- 15:32:51 [GreggVan]
- +1 to including a specific solution with an issue
- 15:32:57 [Chuck]
- shadi: The easier it is for AGWG to incorporate a requested change the more likely it is that AGWG can adopt. Make it as easy as possible.
- 15:32:58 [Chuck]
- +1
- 15:33:00 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:33:17 [shadi]
- GV: +1 to send issue with solution
- 15:33:31 [shadi]
- ...on Loic's point, Guidelines are not required
- 15:33:44 [shadi]
- ...so either we don't look at them at all
- 15:34:19 [shadi]
- ...they are often broad statements that can't be addressed as such
- 15:34:37 [maryjom]
- +1 to Gregg's comment
- 15:34:40 [shadi]
- ...or we should treat them as big broad statements and not spend too much effort on them
- 15:35:00 [loicmn]
- +1 to Gregg's comment
- 15:35:02 [Mike_Pluke]
- q+
- 15:35:13 [maryjom]
- ack Mike_Pluke
- 15:36:07 [maryjom]
- q+
- 15:36:14 [shadi]
- MP: maybe we can scope the applicability to where it definitely applies
- 15:36:16 [maryjom]
- ack maryjom
- 15:36:16 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:36:51 [shadi]
- MJM: does the EN make any references to the Guidelines?
- 15:37:22 [shadi]
- MP: no, but maybe we can apply the same approach we use in EN 301 549 to scope criteria
- 15:37:29 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:37:50 [shadi]
- GV: suggest we just skip the Guidelines
- 15:38:17 [shadi]
- ...if we start scoping and clarifying, it might draw more attention than needed and confuse people
- 15:38:21 [loicmn]
- +1 to "skip" Guidelines as proposed by Gregg. We can just say "Guideline n.n applies as written".
- 15:38:34 [maryjom]
- Draft Resolution: Incorporate the Guidelines changes as-is and open an issue on the WCAG understanding to address Gregg’s comment.
- 15:38:36 [shadi]
- ...they are also not applied in practice for web content either
- 15:39:05 [loicmn]
- +1 to resolution
- 15:39:06 [Devanshu]
- +1
- 15:39:07 [AnastasiaLanz]
- +1
- 15:39:08 [Mike_Pluke]
- +1
- 15:39:09 [olivia-hogan-stark]
- +1
- 15:39:09 [GreggVan]
- +1
- 15:39:10 [maryjom]
- +1
- 15:39:11 [FernandaBonnin_]
- +1
- 15:39:11 [ThorstenKatzmann]
- +1
- 15:39:12 [shadi]
- +1
- 15:39:14 [pday]
- +1
- 15:39:16 [Sam]
- +1
- 15:39:31 [Chuck]
- 12 +1's, no 0's, no -1's
- 15:39:37 [maryjom]
- RESOLUTION: : Incorporate the Guidelines changes as-is and open an issue on the WCAG understanding to address Gregg’s comment.
- 15:40:07 [shadi]
- zakim, take up next
- 15:40:07 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- Survey: Draft background section -- taken up [from maryjom]
- 15:40:20 [Chuck]
- agenda?
- 15:40:25 [daniel-montalvo]
- s: Inc/Inc/
- 15:40:28 [Chuck]
- zakim, take up item 5
- 15:40:28 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- Survey: Initial look at draft for 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose -- taken up [from maryjom]
- 15:41:06 [maryjom]
- • https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-Identify-input-purpose/results
- 15:42:54 [loicmn]
- q+
- 15:43:35 [shadi]
- LMN: inconsistencies between the terms listed in both docs
- 15:44:31 [shadi]
- ...adding notes in the Annex like we did in EN 301 549
- 15:45:37 [shadi]
- FB: not the same list, just wanted to highlight that
- 15:46:14 [shadi]
- ...need to refine the granularity in the note
- 15:46:30 [shadi]
- MJM: maybe also need a section about user interface components
- 15:47:02 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:47:09 [maryjom]
- ack loicmn
- 15:47:10 [daniel-montalvo]
- q?
- 15:47:15 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:47:49 [Devanshu]
- q+
- 15:47:57 [shadi]
- GV: not sure why it doesn't apply to certain types of software
- 15:48:18 [shadi]
- ...it seems to apply to web apps for example
- 15:48:22 [maryjom]
- ack Devanshu
- 15:48:34 [shadi]
- DC: agree with Gregg
- 15:49:23 [shadi]
- ...both iOS and Android have attributes for names
- 15:49:49 [shadi]
- ...it wasn't applicable before but it now applies
- 15:49:51 [Chuck]
- q+ to note that the standard is currently scoped to personal information.
- 15:50:10 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:50:11 [shadi]
- ...just the list is tricky, might not apply the same to all operating systems
- 15:50:17 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:50:33 [shadi]
- GV: list of purposes not list of names
- 15:50:52 [shadi]
- ...so differences among operating systems should be taken care of
- 15:51:24 [shadi]
- ...need to match the name corresponding to the purpose
- 15:51:43 [maryjom]
- ack Chuck
- 15:51:43 [Zakim]
- Chuck, you wanted to note that the standard is currently scoped to personal information.
- 15:51:51 [shadi]
- ...won't be backwards compatible with older software that didn't have this attribute
- 15:52:19 [shadi]
- CA: this SC is scoped to personal information, not everything in the world
- 15:52:49 [shadi]
- ...at the time, autocomplete was most supported
- 15:52:51 [maryjom]
- q?
- 15:52:56 [shadi]
- ...this is where the list came from
- 15:53:40 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:53:43 [Devanshu]
- q+
- 15:53:46 [Chuck]
- q+
- 15:53:57 [maryjom]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:54:19 [shadi]
- GV: autocomplete was one of the driving forces
- 15:54:22 [Chuck]
- +1 it's NOT solely for autocomplete!
- 15:54:26 [shadi]
- ...but not the only use
- 15:54:33 [maryjom]
- ack Devanshu
- 15:54:40 [shadi]
- DC: agree with Gregg
- 15:54:54 [Sam]
- q+
- 15:54:54 [shadi]
- ...iOS and Android both have autocomplete support
- 15:55:01 [maryjom]
- ack Chuck
- 15:55:33 [shadi]
- CA: definitely not solely focused on autocomplete
- 15:56:03 [maryjom]
- ack Sam
- 15:56:11 [shadi]
- ...but it was the available mechanism at the time to leverage this functionality
- 15:56:32 [shadi]
- SO: there are other operating systems beyond iOS and Android
- 15:57:07 [shadi]
- MJM: need to continue this conversation next week
- 15:58:31 [GreggVan]
- q+
- 15:58:56 [maryjom]
- ack gr
- 15:58:57 [daniel-montalvo]
- -me has a hard stop too
- 15:58:58 [Chuck]
- +1 I understand that in the other case it was NOT normative.
- 15:59:10 [pday]
- ack GreggVan
- 15:59:38 [shadi]
- GV: often we said "this would apply if you change word X" but not "if you change the requirement"
- 16:00:02 [shadi]
- MJM: will leave survey open
- 16:00:18 [shadi]
- ...will get back to it next week
- 16:00:33 [olivia-hogan-stark]
- Thanks for leaving it open!
- 16:00:40 [AnastasiaLanz]
- Thanks!
- 16:01:43 [maryjom]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:01:43 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/12/01-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
- 16:35:54 [Sam]
- I would not want to inflect my horrible spelling. irc does not have spell check built into chat
- 16:36:44 [Sam]
- I mean inflict
- 16:56:06 [Sam]
- Sam has left #wcag2ict
- 16:57:52 [Sam]
- Sam has joined #wcag2ict