18:56:12 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:56:12 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-irc 18:57:38 isaacdurazo has joined #aria-apg 19:00:36 Jem has joined #aria-apg 19:00:50 rrsagent, make minutes 19:00:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem 19:01:08 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 19:01:15 present+ 19:01:18 rrsagent, make log public 19:01:22 present+ 19:01:29 rrsagent, make minutes 19:01:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 19:02:22 present+ siri 19:02:47 Siri has joined #aria-apg 19:02:47 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 19:02:56 Present+ 19:03:09 present+ Helen 19:03:13 present+ 19:03:19 present+ alex 19:03:47 present+ 19:03:48 present+ howard 19:04:21 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/November-29%2C-2022-Agenda 19:04:59 present + 19:05:00 present+ 19:05:09 scribe+ 19:05:11 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 19:05:15 TOPIC: Setup and Review Agenda 19:05:28 helen has joined #aria-apg 19:05:29 present+ 19:05:39 Jem: Holiday season is here, let's discuss Dec and Jan meetings 19:05:49 Matt_King: and we have lots to do, everyone has to work through! [laughs] 19:06:12 Matt_King: we'll definitely meet on the 6th and 13th 19:06:30 Matt_King: the 20th is cutting it close to holiday breaks 19:06:47 Matt_King: may need to do some async work 19:07:06 Matt_King: alex, are there any bocoup people working that week? 19:07:10 alex: not sure 19:07:41 Matt_King: hoping to get first support tables from aria-at published, the restructure launched (Which needs redirect work yet) 19:08:19 Matt_King: should we plan NOT to meet the 20th, 27th, and the 3rd? 19:08:24 Matt_King: definitely not on the 27th and 3rd 19:09:07 Matt_King: two big things are landing the restructure and tables.. 19:09:17 Jem: sounds like it's mainly bocoup work, right? 19:09:25 Matt_King: we've already done design reviews among us 19:09:37 present+ isaac 19:10:10 Matt_King: okay, let's cancel 20th, 27th, and 3rd meetings 19:10:27 MarkMcCarthy: second 19:10:41 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2520 19:10:43 Jem: isaacdurazo, can you add a link to the redesign? 19:10:48 isaacdurazo: yes, above 19:11:00 Jem: i'll find time to add my comments 19:11:08 TOPIC: Review design of option for viewing patterns and practices in a list 19:11:43 Matt_King: before we launched the redesign, Shawn Henry gave us feedback, and we got the same feedback afterwards 19:11:54 Matt_King: some folks think the card design is too much scrolling 19:12:00 Matt_King: something like a list view 19:12:14 Matt_King: if we DID include that, it'd be optional 19:12:22 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2534 19:12:23 Matt_King: someone could choose card view or list view 19:12:29 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2534 19:12:51 isaacdurazo: here are mockups of an alternative view 19:13:24 isaacdurazo: i'm also adding a search box 19:13:55 isaacdurazo: should hopefully be a live filter 19:14:02 Matt_King: it's just a search for the patterns? 19:14:04 isaacdurazo: yes 19:14:17 Matt_King: would we want a whole search for the APG? 19:14:50 isaacdurazo: maybe the "Search" on the pattern page is more of a filter, i'm now realizing 19:15:04 isaacdurazo: though i think this filter is useful 19:16:02 isaacdurazo: i also included your feedback in this latest mockup, matt 19:16:38 Matt_King: it might be an issue calling it "grid view" if we're not using aria-grid. maybe "card view" 19:16:58 isaacdurazo: that's a common name too, shouldn't be confusing, i like that 19:17:57 Matt_King: so in patterns and practices, we have iconography for different items - is this design adaptable to one whre there aren't unique icons for every topic? 19:18:33 isaacdurazo: yeah, i think so. if an item doesn't have an icon, the space for the icon can be blank, and we'll align the text 19:18:41 Matt_King: if we didn't have one, maybe a bullet icon or something? 19:18:56 isaacdurazo: yeah, we can think of a placeholder. i don't think we need an icon for EVERYTHING 19:19:32 Matt_King: does this seem like something that should move forward? feedback? 19:19:56 Jem: can you explain a bit what you mean about icons everywhere? 19:20:17 Matt_King: the about page will look more like this in the future, so thinking about that - everything may not or should not need an icon 19:20:39 Jem: makes sense 19:20:50 isaacdurazo: this is the same for practices, too 19:21:32 isaacdurazo: the concepts there are a bit more abstract, so difficult to represent visually 19:22:29 Matt_King: great, this sounds good, engineering can proceed then unless there's concerns 19:23:47 isaacdurazo: i'll make sure i clarify that the current "search" is a filter 19:23:58 Jem: what's the timeline to see implementation of this? 19:24:05 isaacdurazo: howard, alex? 19:24:41 alex: i can probably do it, but depends on when things get merged 19:24:53 Matt_King: support tables are probably a higher priority 19:24:59 alex: so it'd be after that as well 19:25:04 TOPIC: QA results for restructured repository 19:25:27 Matt_King: thank you SO MUCH to everyone who's done reviews on this 19:25:53 Matt_King: there were lots of comments about link text - all of those changes were intentional 19:26:33 Matt_King: there were some other content changes that i'm pretty sure were intentional but i'm going to make sure 19:26:49 Matt_King: there was a lot about spacing and color in different places 19:27:09 Matt_King: lots about it being better in the preview than production, and want to make sure there's consensus 19:27:52 alex: i've been keeping track of feedback, waiting for marching orders. 19:28:18 Jem: i can summarize our feedback and share to the group to make it easier for everyone 19:29:01 Matt_King: let's talk about font size, spacing, and color - where are things problematic? 19:29:14 Matt_King: font size changes, sounds like none of that was desirable. right? 19:29:15 Jem: yes 19:29:29 Matt_King: was that unintentional? 19:29:36 alex: not intentional, but i havne't looked into it 19:30:00 Matt_King: we made changes to warning, advisement, and note class 19:30:43 Jem: my recollection is those changes were good, having headings is good. but small things, like capital letters 19:31:30 helen: i think the style in the preview version looks nicer, a bit more modern. the current warning has a red box all the way around, the new one looks nicer 19:31:44 alex: that was to make the warnings consistent with advisement and notes, just different colors 19:32:04 Matt_King: there's still a wording difference, right? so it's not just color differentiating them, right? 19:32:21 alex: usually warnings started with IMPORTANT, advisement with CAUTION, notes with NOTE 19:32:58 Matt_King: i'm not sure we need both advisement and warning - there's differences between notes and warnings, though 19:34:42 helen: i also like that the preview has more padding between the headings and navigation menu, which i like a lot more 19:34:52 alex: thank you for noticing, I feel validated! [laughs] 19:35:43 Matt_King: an excellent change! maybe we'll want to consider if we need notes AND warnings in the future. but THAT seems like an existing inconsistency, so i'm not super worried now 19:35:59 Matt_King: seems like one thing to fix is the font sizing. spacing, colors, are okay? 19:36:15 Jem: there's broken links we have to fix 19:36:25 alex: just because the branches are different 19:36:30 Jem: what about the footer links? 19:36:39 alex: well THAT's a bug 19:37:02 Jem: jon mentioned that the carousels are broken 19:37:19 alex: i'll work on that too 19:40:02 Matt_King: alex, there's also some merge conflicts, can you look at them or let me know if you need help? 19:40:29 alex: i'm not sure how to pre-emptively solve that, but i think i know what's going on. just cant figure out how to placate github 19:41:08 alex: easily possible i'm also confused 19:41:30 Matt_King: aria-practices.html is getting deleted, so shouldn't be conflicting. weird, maybe something got restored that shouldn't have 19:42:04 TOPIC: New Issue Action Planning 19:42:36 Rating slider is not a good pattern #2501(https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2501) 19:42:37 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2501 : Rating slider is not a good pattern 19:43:34 Matt_King: i'd like Jon and James here for this one, so maybe we'll defer it 19:44:16 Navigation Treeview Example #2477(https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2477) 19:44:19 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2477 : Navigation Treeview Example 19:44:31 TOPIC: Nav Treeview Example 19:44:36 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2477 19:45:39 Matt_King: so this isn't working properly for Talkback... I know we did some testing on iOS and Android without screenreaders to make sure they at least functioned. but there isn't support for the tree role in iOS or Android as far as I know 19:46:21 Matt_King: this might be a nonissue for us... may be an OS thing if there's no mapping 19:47:11 Matt_King: is this a bug in the code that would NOT require a change to the design of the pattern? or could this be Talkback not distinguishing between activation and expansion? 19:47:34 Jem: i could try it and see how it goes, can add comments here 19:48:03 Matt_King: there's no support for the tree role in Android, so we shouldn't expect it to work. but if it's a matter of something small... 19:50:34 Matt_King: how do you know they're expandable parent items? 19:51:26 MarkMcCarthy: there's a right arrow facing the word, that when expanded turns into a downward arrow showing the child items 19:51:53 Matt_King: we -could- make the arrow icon itself something that talkback can focus on to open the child menu, but then it might have to exist outside of the tree 19:53:49 Matt_King: i don't think theres any way to structure a treeitem such that the icon is separate from the link, AND have them both in the treeitem 19:54:37 Matt_King: if the icons are outside the links but inside the list items, they might work? hmm 19:54:46 Matt_King: i don't think there's a straightforward way to do that 19:55:14 Jem: plus the arrow icons look like indicators more than an actionable item 19:56:46 MarkMcCarthy: the arrows themselves do appear actionable, though are small targets to click on, 19:57:15 Matt_King: and a keyboard user can expand/collapse the list items with the left and right arrow keys 19:57:19 MarkMcCarthy: yes 19:58:33 Matt_King: can you do the same on android? expand the treeitems without changing the page? 19:58:39 MarkMcCarthy: i have to zoom in a bunch, but yes 19:59:13 Matt_King: sounds like we're uncovering some stuff. but it might depend on what iOS and Android do, and/or what JAWS and NVDA do with touch events rather than keyboard or mouse 19:59:48 Matt_King: i would guess screen readers should perceive the arrows as something different, but as is not sure they would 20:01:12 Matt_King: we'll need to think about whether it's possible to structure this so there's an aelement for expand/collapse outside of the treeitem, that's recognizable by touch screen readers 20:01:38 Matt_King: sounds like it has to be outside of the treeitem but inside the tree. not sure how ARIA would handle that, as it relates to child items etc. 20:02:24 Matt_King: this could end up being an ARIA problem - how to make a tree itself accessible to touch-based screen readers 20:02:57 Matt_King: sounds like this is a bigger question then - and a matter of solving some other accessibility issues 20:03:09 zakim, who is here? 20:03:09 Present: Jem, Matt_King, siri, Helen, MarkMcCarthy, alex, isaacdurazo, howard, howard-e 20:03:12 On IRC I see helen, howard-e, MarkMcCarthy, Siri, Jem, isaacdurazo, RRSAgent, Zakim, Matt_King, jamesn, github-bot, MichaelC, Mike5Matrix, Github, ZoeBijl, trackbot 20:03:15 present- howard 20:03:22 regrets+ JonGund CurtBellew 20:03:44 TOPIC: Talk to you all next week! 20:03:55 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:03:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 20:03:59 rrsagent, make minutes 20:03:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/29-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 22:14:13 Zakim has left #aria-apg 23:46:53 MichaelC_ has joined #aria-apg