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06:25:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/22-i18n-irc
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06:25:41 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
06:25:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
06:25:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
06:25:47 <trackbot> Date: 22 November 2022
06:25:51 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ad267bf8-d5fc-4581-959a-9891c00fc25a
06:25:51 <agendabot> clear agenda
06:25:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda
06:25:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Meeting recurrence
06:25:53 <agendabot> agenda+ Font Fallback
06:25:55 <agendabot> agenda+ Flow-relative syntax for margin-like shorthands
06:25:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Custom property namespacing
06:26:00 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
06:26:17 <addison> Meeting: I18N + CSS
06:26:23 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
06:26:29 <addison> scribe+
06:26:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
06:47:40 <addison> present+ Addison
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06:54:59 <addison> present+ Florian
06:57:01 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
06:59:41 <addison> agenda?
07:01:11 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #i18n
07:02:00 <addison> present+ fantasai, Atsushi
07:03:54 <addison> agenda?
07:04:06 <addison> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ad267bf8-d5fc-4581-959a-9891c00fc25a
07:04:27 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
07:04:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from agendabot]
07:05:29 <addison> (discussion of agenda)
07:05:42 <fantasai> Scribenick: fantasai
07:05:42 <xfq> scribe: xfq
07:05:57 <xfq> scribe+ xfq, fantasai
07:05:59 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
07:05:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Meeting recurrence -- taken up [from agendabot]
07:06:35 <fantasai> addison: r12a is having technical difficulties, so maybe a bit tricky to discuss all topics
07:06:46 <fantasai> addison: What should be our meeting timing / cadence?
07:07:13 <fantasai> florian: This time doesn't always work on Tuesdays, but it works fine for today
07:07:19 <fantasai> fantasai: 2am is workable once a month
07:07:30 <fantasai> florian: My standing conflict is 2nd Tuesday of the month; any other is fine
07:07:37 <fantasai> addison: Likely target for next month would be the 19th
07:07:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/22-i18n-minutes.html xfq
07:07:45 <fantasai> florian, fantasai: wfm
07:08:06 <addison> agenda?
07:08:21 <fantasai> addison: 3 topics on our backlog
07:08:32 <fantasai> addison: r12a published his article about generic font families
07:08:33 <xfq> Font styles & font fallback -> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/typography/fontstyles.en
07:08:54 <fantasai> addison: hesitate to discuss without r12a
07:08:59 <fantasai> florian: Meta-comment about the issue, wrt how to proceed
07:09:07 <fantasai> ... I think there's 3 subtopics
07:09:19 <fantasai> ... If we're planning to add a lot of these, how do we manage them?
07:09:26 <fantasai> ... is this a spec, a registry, who is managing the list?
07:09:49 <fantasai> ... Another question is, technically, how do we add new generics? Do they have fallbacks? Are they defined over all of Unicode, or certain areas? What syntax do we use?
07:09:58 <fantasai> ... Lastly which [missed]
07:09:59 <addison> q+
07:10:13 <fantasai> florian: fantasai made a statement about this, a good criteria for the minimum we should do
07:10:20 <fantasai> ... not necessarily the limit, but a good place to start
07:10:30 <fantasai> florian: wrt fallbacks, maybe primarily discuss in CSSWG
07:10:36 <addison> ack
07:10:38 <addison> ack addison
07:10:45 <florian> s/wrt fallbacks/wrt fallbacks, syntax/
07:10:57 <fantasai> addison: Where we started from, from our conversation with fantasai previously
07:11:07 <fantasai> ... first question was, are there any cases that would meet the bar for a generic
07:11:28 <fantasai> ... our understanding was that a generic needed to be something where the appearance was physically different for a reason beyond stylistic preferences
07:11:33 <fantasai> ... needed to convey a semantic difference
07:11:53 <fantasai> ... so I think that's what r12a's article was about, showing different cases where they might rise to the level of meeting that bar
07:12:08 <fantasai> ... If we agree that's true and we agree what the bar is, then we could try to fool around with how would we do this
07:12:16 <fantasai> ... what would these generics mean, and how would we tell browser vendors
07:12:25 <fantasai> ... if other criteria aren't true, then it would be a waste of time to codify
07:12:29 <xfq> q+
07:12:46 <addison> ack xfq
07:12:46 <fantasai> ... so first question is, whether those are the right critera and are we identifying items that fit them
07:12:47 <florian> q+
07:12:58 <fantasai> xfq: I agree that Florian's points are for discussion
07:13:06 <fantasai> xfq: One thing I'm not sure about is Unicode
07:13:11 <fantasai> ... from what I understand this has more to do with fonts
07:13:19 <fantasai> ... doesn't have much to do with Unicode stuff
07:13:40 <fantasai> ... if people want to restrict a font for a specific range of characters, they can use existing mechanisms like unicode-range descriptor for @font-face
07:14:01 <fantasai> florian: So for the moment, serif/sans-serif apply to all of Unicode
07:14:07 <fantasai> ... e.g. serif is Mincho, not Gothic, in Japanese
07:14:26 <fantasai> ... If we want to define this for all generics, then we need to know not just what Nastaliq means in Arabic
07:14:30 <fantasai> ... but also what it means in Greek
07:14:47 <fantasai> ... Or otherwise, we need to define some generic fonts that don't fall back
07:15:06 <fantasai> ... I think we have a resolution that they will fall back, and I don't think it's reasonable to discuss what nastaliq means in Greek
07:15:14 <fantasai> xfq: As long as a suitable font found on the system
07:15:30 <fantasai> addison: but a Nastaliq font would likely cover Arabic and basic Latin, but not Greek or Cyrillic or Han ideographs
07:15:44 <fantasai> addison: it doesn't have any meaning there, but it might imply serif, say
07:15:46 <atsushi> +1 for covering latin-1 etc., similar request raised in JLreq also
07:15:50 <fantasai> florian: we might want to define that
07:16:05 <addison> q?
07:16:06 <fantasai> ... for the new type, it falls back to serif or it falls back to sans-serif, or you have to say yourself
07:16:08 <addison> ack fantasai
07:16:09 <florian> q-
07:16:29 <fantasai> florian: The other thing I wanted to say wrt meeting the bar, I have not read r12a's article (still need to)
07:16:39 <fantasai> ... the bar set by fantasai is where we "really ought to do something"
07:16:43 <fantasai> ... I believe that set is not empty
07:16:51 <fantasai> ... and not doing something for that set would be a disservice to the Web
07:16:58 <fantasai> ... Might be useful to go further, but at least do that
07:17:41 <xfq> fantasai: for the fallback behavior, the current font generics fall back to @@, for the new ones they define what happens, whether they're transparent, the behavior over Unicode
07:18:09 <xfq> ...  I think for this we're gonna have a type of generics, not for the full range of Unicode, might have a functional notation for generics
07:18:15 <xfq> ... just an idea
07:18:22 <xfq> florian: we already have fallback
07:18:29 <xfq> fantasai: we do already have fallback
07:19:05 <xfq> florian: it's not incredibly useful to put the fallback into the parens
07:19:46 <xfq> ... we could define for new generics which of the three it falls back to (serif, sans-serif, maybe monospace)
07:19:47 <fantasai> fantasai: But what do you get for Greek of the last font in the list is nastaliq?
07:19:57 <fantasai> florian: unsure, maybe we need to define for each type what it falls back to
07:20:15 <fantasai> florian: Also worth noting that functional notation would make the property invalid
07:20:41 <fantasai> ... this was suggested as a way of namespacing the generics so that they don't conflict with named fonts
07:21:28 <fantasai> ... name conflicts are increasingly likely as we add more generics
07:21:35 <fantasai> ... so we need some kind of syntax to distinguish
07:22:34 <fantasai> ACTION: Florian to read r12a's article on generic font families
07:22:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1221 - Read r12a's article on generic font families [on Florian Rivoal - due 2022-11-29].
07:23:18 <fantasai> fantasai: For some of the fonts, seems like need for generic is definite; some are fuzzy; some are language-specific, this should be handled by treating generics differently depending on lang tag
07:23:35 <fantasai> addison: r12a's goal was to write down what we know
07:23:51 <fantasai> addison: Consider nastaliq, is it tied to language or is it a font style?
07:24:01 <fantasai> ... affects legibility
07:24:12 <fantasai> florian: Might not meet the bar. Meets the bar of it's important
07:24:30 <fantasai> ... but it's not clear that you have documents that contain both nastaliq and something else, and if you lose the distinction you lose information
07:24:40 <fantasai> addison: unclear you'd have document where they're validly mixed
07:24:49 <fantasai> ... maybe if you have Arabic document talking about Urdu
07:24:55 <fantasai> florian: it's very relevant, but not very relvant contrast
07:25:02 <fantasai> ... that's kind of thing that doesn't meet fantasai's bar
07:25:12 <fantasai> ... however, might also be nice to have, because it's a thing people want
07:25:29 <fantasai> ... but if the browser is smart enough, which it should be, if you say it's Urdu it should make it nastaliq without you telling it to
07:25:35 <fantasai> ... because that's how Urdu should be rendered
07:25:40 <fantasai> ... for Persian, less clear, could have either
07:25:52 <fantasai> addison: or kufi, but ...
07:26:10 <fantasai> florian: That's second bucket: culturally important, but not essential in the same way
07:26:22 <fantasai> addison: My suggestion is have a read through the document
07:26:26 <fantasai> ... maybe some meet the bar and some don't
07:26:44 <fantasai> ... assuming there are some -- and some feel pretty clear -- then can go forward with what to do and how to do it
07:26:53 <fantasai> florian: what's best way to provide feedback?
07:27:02 <fantasai> addison: probably written feedback, if you have time
07:27:12 <fantasai> ... because then we can do some offline work, and think about it
07:27:30 <fantasai> ... and then maybe when we come together, be ready to make decisions
07:28:25 <xfq> fantasai: in the CSSWG we need to be clear whether the semantic distinction is required
07:28:39 <xfq> ... we might also want to add generics for other purposes
07:28:54 <fantasai> addison: So read the article, list which ones meet the bar, and if list is zero discuss why
07:29:09 <fantasai> ... and if some meet the bar, then we have a concrete example and we can go, ok, how do we do this
07:29:23 <fantasai> florian: Maybe fantasai and I can take a joint action item
07:29:31 <fantasai> ... and as we do this, maybe we find subcategories for the rest
07:29:44 <addison> action: fantasai: with florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics
07:29:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1222 - With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics [on Elika Etemad - due 2022-11-29].
07:29:52 <xfq> +1
07:30:08 <addison> agenda?
07:31:18 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1282
07:31:27 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
07:31:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Flow-relative syntax for margin-like shorthands -- taken up [from agendabot]
07:31:32 <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2022Oct/0018.html
07:31:58 <xfq> fantasai: I think we have a good set of minutes ^
07:32:06 <xfq> ... we had a debate on the syntax
07:32:34 <xfq> ... notation about whether that property is logical, physical, or other
07:32:48 <xfq> ... the triage needs to be in the definition table
07:33:06 <xfq> ... we didn't have much agreement on the syntax options
07:33:49 <xfq> ... I don't think people are object to this idea
07:34:12 <xfq> ... if you write logical-first, it's quite natural to have things like margin to be logical
07:34:25 <xfq> ... but for box-shadow etc. it might make sense for it to stay physical
07:34:51 <xfq> ... so it doesn't end up becoming a 'flow everything'
07:35:03 <xfq> ... the action on us is to do a triage on all properties of css
07:35:29 <xfq> ... the action on i18n is which should stay physical
07:36:01 <xfq> addison: I understand David's assertion on direction of shadow, it's not really about bidi
07:36:34 <xfq> ... but I don't know we're going to jump out of the box: 'this should be logical'
07:36:47 <xfq> florian: we do have a an index of properties
07:37:17 <xfq> ... @@1
07:37:31 <florian> https://drafts.csswg.org/indexes/#properties
07:37:45 <xfq> addison: if you have a list, it would be easy for us to have a look at that list, like 'oh that's fine'
07:38:09 <xfq> florian: this is a list of everything, not a triaged list
07:38:12 <addison> s/have a list/have a list of items you propose not to mirror/
07:38:46 <xfq> fantasai: we might want to have a categorized list, like these are the box properties
07:39:20 <xfq> florian: maybe authors can deal with that manually
07:39:43 <xfq> florian: maybe we ned an allowlist, block list and a sensible default
07:40:03 <xfq> fantasai: or maybe we ned things like mostly-logical, mostly-physical, etc.
07:40:14 <fantasai> s/ned things/need modes/
07:40:32 <xfq> s/ned an/need an/
07:41:00 <xfq> fantasai: if we get the metadata sorted out, I image authors come up with tooling in preprocessors
07:41:07 <xfq> s/image/imagine/
07:41:48 <xfq> addison: how to make it happen relatively organic and relatively early?
07:42:11 <xfq> fantasai: I don't know. there's definitely some people who would do that
07:42:33 <xfq> ... some people working on translations have to think about these things
07:43:04 <xfq> florian: in terms of CSSWG we have enough people who understand this but we have limited people who use it on a daily basis
07:43:06 <fantasai> s/metadata/metadata and declaration-level syntax/
07:43:29 <xfq> florian: the challenge of adding metadata and triage is that css is a moving target
07:43:34 <xfq> ... it has to be maintained
07:43:56 <xfq> fantasai: we could add it to the property definition table
07:44:16 <xfq> ... the triage could be a PR against the entire repo
07:44:39 <xfq> ... the property definition table don't shift that much
07:45:24 <xfq> florian: I'm not saying we shouldn't do this, but we should consider the timing, we should not do the triage, change it, and re-do the triage
07:45:47 <xfq> ... fantasai and I should probably do this together
07:46:08 <addison> action: florian: triage all CSS properties to determine which are logical, physical, or NA by default
07:46:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1223 - Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default [on Florian Rivoal - due 2022-11-29].
07:46:20 <xfq> s/logical, physical, or other/logical by default, physical by default, or not applicable/
07:46:42 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
07:46:44 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
07:48:20 <xfq> Topic: [css-syntax] custom property names too permissive, require namespacing rules
07:48:23 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7129
07:48:47 <xfq> florian: why do we need to something about it?
07:48:58 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7129#issuecomment-1069331981
07:49:03 <xfq> fantasai: I think the CSSWG has a resolution on it already ^
07:50:02 <xfq> addison: why don't we queue that and put it on the next meeting?
07:50:43 <xfq> florian: thank you and good night elika!
07:51:01 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
07:51:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/22-i18n-minutes.html xfq
07:51:20 <addison> RRSAgent, make minutes
07:51:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
07:52:07 <addison> zakim, bye
07:52:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Florian, Fuqiao, fantasai, Atsushi
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07:52:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/22-i18n-minutes.html addison
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