W3C

– DRAFT –
Web Authentication WG

16 November 2022

Attendees

Present
Akshay, davidwaite, elundberg, JasonCai, JohnPascoe, matthewmiller, Nadalin, nsteele, RanjivaPrasad, sbweeden, smcgruer, SueKoomen, wseltzer
Regrets
agl, JohnBradley, MikeJones, Nina, TimCappalli
Chair
-
Scribe
wseltzer

Meeting minutes

Nadalin: PR 1814

elundberg: editorial, fixing a reference

sbweeden: I approved
… it's trivial

nadalin: no objections to merging

nadalin: 1774

elundberg: still open

nadalin: 1821

sbweeden: approve, it's trivial

nadalin: merge

nadalin: 1813

elundberg: editorial, renaming some properties

nadalin: good to merge

nadalin: 1812

elundberg: restructures DPK attestation to use credential record abstraction
… for easier reading. I'd like some review

elundberg: please take a look if you're interested in DPK extension

nadalin: 1801

smcgruer: Web Payments WG request to allow x-origin iframe to support payments use cases
… awaiting further reply

johnpascoe: Apple's disagreements are noted there, remain

akshay: do we have reasoning?

johnpascoe: It seems the wrong point for credential creation; likely to create user confusion
… user confusion that URL in URL bar isn't for what you're registering credential
… hard to convey accurately to user what's happening

akshay: I see the confusion where the URL differs from what you're registering
… 3DS use case shouldn't be mixed with login use case is solved by an extra property

johnpascoe: proposed fix is make sure you register 3DS credentials on a different subdomain from login

akshay: many RPs do not care about payments
… ability of random websites to call a prompt concerns me
… can we have a RP opt-in, e.g. .wellknown to allow the x-origin UI?

smcgruer: this is enrollment

akshay: security-wise, server can check responses
… but the fact that a random website can *ask* for login.microsoft.com is a brand and usability problem

smcgruer: for authentication time, there's an opt-in, default off
… I wasn't aware of that concern at enrollment
… still don't fully see it

akshay: phishing resistance. previously, you could clone a website; webauthn says the browser won't even show you the login
… now, why is prompt coming from random phishing website

smcgruer: not seeing huge difference from popup
… back to John's point, nothing today stops an RP from creating a passkey for whatever they want
… even if they tell the user the passkey is only for payments, it will show up in password manager

@@: do we know how mozilla feels?

dveditz: generally uncomfortable with creating credentials in x-origin iframe; have to think further whether webauthn makes a difference
… need to think more about user experience for username/password vs passkey

akshay: I'd like a couple weeks to review

nadalin: question of how many implementations we'd get, as well as consensus or not

smcgruer_[EST]: thanks for input. we want to hear questions and concerns

smcgruer: there's a silent fall-back from dev perspective, it won't work if not implemented

smcgruer_[EST]: in the original issue, there's a list of payment folks who want to do this
… they're not looking to create an account, but to create a passkey
… they've authenticated the user to some extent, and want to create a passkey for future interactions

earlier issue

nadalin: we'll leave it for a few more weeks
… return at next meeting in 2 weeks.

nadalin: Untriaged, 1822

elundberg: should there be more granular resident key options
… don't exhaust limited space

sbweeden: prefer if unlimited depends on cooperative RP involvement
… if you're going to preserve discoverable credential space, client needs to help orchestrate

johnpascoe: as browser, do we just assume any key has limited storage

elundberg: recent CTAP has a field
… if nothing, you should assume limited

akshay: in deployment, you're selecting one UX or another; in "preferred", I don't really know how UX will work
… I don't think there's a webauthn change required here.
… platform or browser could make tweaks

elundberg: that makes sense

davidwaite: this is to solve for the starvation case
… there could be recommended heuristics

nadalin: leave this as-is for now

nadalin: 1819
… this may be implementation
… I'll ask adam

nadalin: 1818

elundberg: close, redirected

nadalin: 1817

sbweeden: re duplication of data in client extension results
… duplicate in unsigned data seems a recipe for reading from the wrong place

elundberg: agree. would like comment from Mike Jones

sbweeden: let's wait for Mike Jones, Adam

nadalin: 1816
… any objection to closing?
… 1808

elundberg: we closed earlier, as there's no ask for change
… got requested to reopen, but no response

nadalin: close it again
… if asks to reopen again, we need feedback

nadalin: 1803

sbweeden: elundberg responded
… if I want to pursue, should offer a non-normative PR

nadalin: leave open and revisit

matthewmiller: can we look at 1255,, duplicate of issue that's rather old
… comes down to browser implementation, whether there's any desire for the feature
… L3 has some precdent for serializing options for use in a form

elundberg: agree that JSON serialization makes the threshold lower
… I'd like to see the feature but don't feel strongly

johnpascoe: I'd like to see the feature too

matthewmiller: would like to see it to make webauthn a first-class feature in the DOM

sbweeden: what's the motivation for not wanting to use javascript?

matthewmiller: e.g. allowing frontend devs to work in HTML, as with username/password form
… declarative form-building

nadalin: need to look at the charter scope

dveditz: Moz would have some interest, e.g. Tor project, noscript

nadalin: leave it for consideration

elundberg: shall I note tentative support from Safari and Firefox, but issue is low priority

dveditz, johnpascoe: interest, not support

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 196 (Thu Oct 27 17:06:44 2022 UTC).

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No scribenick or scribe found. Guessed: wseltzer

Maybe present: @@, dveditz, smcgruer_[EST]

All speakers: @@, akshay, davidwaite, dveditz, elundberg, johnpascoe, matthewmiller, Nadalin, sbweeden, smcgruer, smcgruer_[EST]

Active on IRC: wseltzer