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15:01:47 <Paul_B> zakim, start meeting
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15:01:48 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Paul_B
15:02:46 <Paul_B> Meeting: Publishing Community Group, Education Task Force Telecon
15:02:55 <Paul_B> Date: 16 Nov 2022
15:03:05 <Paul_B> Chair: Paul Belfanti
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15:05:41 <tzviya> zakim, start the meeting
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15:05:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), tzviya
15:05:44 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
15:05:45 <sueneu> present+
15:05:45 <Paul_B> scribenick: sueneu
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15:05:50 <jamesY_> present+
15:05:53 <gautier> present+
15:05:59 <tzviya> date: 2022-11-16
15:06:07 <tzviya> chair: pa
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15:06:18 <tzviya> Chair: Paul
15:06:28 <Paul_B> agenda+ Discuss/plan for outreach to Open Annotations WG re use case submitted by Gautier Chomel https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/46           https://www.w3.org/annotation/           https://annotator.apache.org/           https://readwise.io/
15:06:55 <Paul_B> agenda+ • Review additional use cases (if any)
15:07:19 <tzviya> zakim, take up item 1
15:07:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Discuss/plan for outreach to Open Annotations WG re use case submitted by Gautier Chomel https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/46
15:07:23 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/annotation/           https://annotator.apache.org/           https://readwise.io/ -- taken up [from Paul_B]
15:07:41 <sueneu> Paul-first agenda item, at pub meeting group we discussed Gautier's annotations use case, suggeted reaching out to annotation work group
15:07:47 <tzviya> q+ to clarify
15:07:57 <wolfgang> s/suggeted/suggested/
15:08:09 <sueneu> ...in order to make a universal soulution, ereaders should participate and that isn't likely...
15:08:32 <wolfgang> s/soulution/solution/
15:08:37 <sueneu> ...trying to figure out what is a viable way forward for Gautier's use case
15:08:40 <tzviya> ack me
15:08:40 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to clarify
15:08:48 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/annotation/
15:09:18 <sueneu> Tzviya the web annotations group grew out of the open annotations group. But nothing has happened to the best of my knowledge in the last 5 years
15:09:50 <sueneu> There are was an attempt at open annotations for epub that never took off
15:10:17 <sueneu> ...this has been tried before, the spec exists, we may want to start there..
15:10:26 <sueneu> ...this is about implemenation not about new spec
15:10:40 <sueneu> Paul is the reality that we are up against a wall here?
15:10:43 <wolfgang> s/implemenation/implementation/
15:11:21 <sueneu> Tzviya not a wall, but we don't need to start with spec. The work is with implementation. We can start with Thorium and other readers. This is larger than education.
15:11:41 <tzviya> s/Tzviya/Tzviya:
15:12:02 <sueneu> ...it comes up in every single discussion we have in EPUB, does the committee want to take this on
15:12:17 <sueneu> thanks Tzviya!
15:12:59 <sueneu> Gauthier: I want to be able to store my annotations in a place that I choose, like my dropbox so I can use them in my different operating systems...
15:13:23 <tzviya> see https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model
15:13:31 <sueneu> what I need is to create a base of notes that are linked to one single source...
15:14:35 <sueneu> Need-name: We have the structure but if we don't allow internal annotations we may lose something.
15:15:23 <sueneu> Need-name: there are many web systems for annotations, there is a matter of interactivity, the web isn't the same as for books...
15:15:25 <tzviya> q+ to ask laurent why this is an edu issue
15:15:42 <sueneu> Need-name: we need to work on something that is interoperable
15:15:56 <wolfgang> s/Need-name:/Laurent:/
15:16:24 <sueneu> Tzviya: Why are you bringing this up in the Education TF?
15:17:16 <sueneu> ...the protocol exists in a web annotations model, until there is something that holds all epubs, that can't exist
15:18:30 <sueneu> Gautier: I brought this to the EdTF because it is one reason academics prefer web pages and PDFs to Epubs
15:19:21 <sueneu> ...if I want to make notes in an epub, I am stuck. I can make notes outside the publication. I believe there is a gap in the usage for education communities that needs to be address through annotation.
15:20:23 <sueneu> Paul: I feel a little bit at a loss about the next step. Once Thorium is finished, maybe we can take it to the other reader systems. What is a reasonable next step?
15:21:07 <sueneu> Tzviya: We are trying to accomplish a few things here, trying to incorporate otero and web annotations...
15:21:20 <wolfgang> s/otero/Zotero/
15:22:33 <sueneu> Tzviya: I don't know if annotations will solve the problems for text books. If what we're trying to accomplish is interopterability... is the problem Zotero or addressability within epub as a whole
15:23:09 <sueneu> Gautier: to make epub work the way PDFs and HTML work
15:23:32 <sueneu> Tzviya: What is the use case for Epub vs PDF/HTML
15:23:39 <sueneu> Gautier: accessibility
15:23:52 <sueneu> Tzviya: Journal article or book?
15:23:59 <sueneu> Gautier: Book
15:24:57 <sueneu> Gautier: I have a better reading experience with Epub, but a lower User Experience. I would like to be able to only use Epubs and Webpage and get rid of PDFs In my research, but I don't have a working solution.
15:25:28 <sueneu> Tzviya: You would like to be able to choose your annotation tool inside the epub?
15:25:44 <sueneu> Laurence: or use the annotation tool within the Epub
15:26:07 <tzviya> s/Laurence/Laurent
15:26:33 <sueneu> Laurent: we could try to reach an agreement with other systems?
15:27:05 <sueneu> Tzviya: I don't this this would work because people were offered this at one time with Patchy-annotator
15:27:14 <tzviya> s/Patchy/Apache
15:27:34 <sueneu> Gautier: maybe this can stay open, and we can reach out to Thorium
15:27:55 <sueneu> Paul: That sounds good. When you have an implementation maybe we can circle back
15:29:08 <sueneu> Paul: Next agenda item: are the any new use cases
15:29:26 <wolfgang> scribe+
15:30:17 <wolfgang> sueneu: had interviews - ppl missing page numbers in EPUBs - looking for some way of citation
15:30:55 <sueneu> Susan: I'm working on a Use Case around page numbers but not sure how to prodeed
15:31:12 <wolfgang> scribe-
15:32:05 <sueneu> Tzviya: The location task for is working on a way to add location/pagination she will reach out to Wendy. Things we have tried haven't been well received.
15:32:16 <tzviya> s/location/locators
15:32:39 <sueneu> Paul: I have conversations going that I think will result in use cases, they are taking some time to resolve into use cases
15:32:55 <sueneu> Tzviya: I also have something and am looking for time to write it up.
15:33:14 <sueneu> Paul: The frustrating thing about this is not having many use cases to discuss.
15:33:53 <sueneu> Paul: Hopefully by the new year we will have a collection of Use Cases to plug into
15:34:50 <sueneu> Susan: Is there a slack channel?
15:35:17 <sueneu> Tzviya: We could create a publishing slack channel withing the W3c Slack
15:35:33 <sueneu> Paul: I could reach out to Ralph?
15:35:41 <sueneu> Tzviya: I'll reach out
15:36:24 <sueneu> s/location/locators
15:36:31 <sueneu> s/Patchy/Apache
15:36:39 <Paul_B> rrsagent, make logs public
15:36:41 <sueneu> s/otero/Zotero/
15:36:47 <sueneu> s/Need-name:/Laurent:/
15:36:54 <sueneu> s/Tzviya/Tzviya:
15:37:07 <sueneu> s/suggeted/suggested/
15:45:45 <Paul_B> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:45:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/16-pcg-ed-minutes.html Paul_B