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14:40:19 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
14:40:19 <trackbot> Date: 11 November 2022
14:40:24 <Steven> Chair: Steven
14:40:36 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2022Nov/0005
14:41:11 <Steven> Previous Meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/10/21-forms-minutes
14:41:21 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:41:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/11-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:05:47 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-2314: Compose text that matches the <control/> discussion for
15:05:47 <Steven> mirroring (Steven)
15:05:47 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2022Nov/0004
15:06:03 <Steven> Steven: Not sure where Alain is. I'll send him a message.
15:06:17 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:06:58 <Steven> Present: Alain, Erik, Steven
15:07:06 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2022Nov/0004
15:07:19 <Alain> Alain has joined #forms
15:07:22 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2022Nov/0004
15:08:43 <Steven> Steven: Have a look at that, which records the requirements and decisions we have made to date, and puts questions that need an answer.
15:09:09 <Steven> ... There's one other question that has arisen for me since then: is the mirroring bi-directional?
15:11:45 <Steven> Steven: Q1 Shape of the data. Are there restrictions, or is the ref just copied in?
15:12:57 <Steven> Erik: We don't do anything special. The only restriction is that the control binds to an element, which becomes the root element of the mirroring.
15:13:11 <Steven> Steven: Is the receiver just an instance?
15:14:21 <Steven> Erik: Yes, it has to be an instance (in our implementation). Technically you could, like @targetref in submission
15:14:44 <Steven> ... we didn;t have a need for a sub-instance
15:14:49 <Steven> s/;/'/
15:15:46 <Steven> Steven: So this suggests that the <instance/> element should have an @instance element, rather than a @ref.
15:16:26 <Steven> Alain: Why not an attribute, for instance for a colour picker control.
15:17:03 <Steven> Erik: We would need to decide how the mirroring would work. A root element on an instance is easier to handle.
15:17:46 <Steven> ... you do in general bind to an attribute or element in XForms.
15:18:24 <Steven> ... From the embedded form, you are going to change the text node, so if you are controlling the vlaue, how does the embedded for know what you are bound to?
15:19:23 <Steven> ... For attributes I'm not sure how to do it, though it would be good to be able to do that.
15:20:44 <Steven> Steven: If we did allow attributes, would it be allowable to bind an attribute on one side to an element on the other?
15:21:56 <Steven> Erik: Yes, as long as the embedded form doesn't have children.
15:22:24 <Steven> Steven: So the answer to Q1 is yes.
15:22:46 <Steven> Erik; There are binding restrictions in the spec. You can't bind an <input/> to an element with children.
15:22:54 <Steven> s/;/:/
15:23:36 <Steven> Steven: That uses special knowledge about the elements. We would need to be able to specify that.
15:25:04 <Steven> Steven: Q2: DOes the nirroring work in both directions?
15:25:10 <Steven> s/DO/Do/
15:25:40 <Steven> Erik: We do both.
15:25:52 <Steven> ... there is a trick: which direction initially.
15:26:14 <Steven> ...EG If the embedding is responsible for saving the data.
15:26:42 <Steven> ... The subform supplies the data
15:26:57 <Steven> ... the ebedder doesn't have any initial values.
15:27:33 <Steven> ... Case 2, the outer form does have initial values.
15:27:53 <Steven> s/ebedder/embedder/
15:28:15 <Steven> Erik: There needs to be a way to specify.
15:29:28 <Steven> ... The logic we use is if the embedded form is bound to an an element, and the element contains *any* content* that is used as the initial values. If it *is* empty, it gets the values from the embedder.
15:30:01 <Steven> Steven: Q3 Do events perform any differently in either forms?
15:30:58 <Steven> Erik: It's not only bubbling.
15:31:52 <Steven> ... but I'm not sure how it work.
15:33:20 <Steven> ... we can explore that.
15:36:50 <Steven> ... I want to avoid duplicating events.
15:37:53 <Steven> Alain: How it is implemented should be independent of the notation
15:38:22 <Steven> ... we should have events as specced.
15:38:51 <Steven> Erik: I'm not requiring web components, just bearing in mind how they are done there.
15:39:33 <Steven> Alain: If the embedded form is just a subtree, it should continue to work the same.
15:40:24 <Steven> Erik: If you embed a form does the embedding form get new stuff; are all the embedded forms events bubbling out?
15:40:47 <Steven> ... I think it would be better if they didn't.
15:42:04 <Steven> Steven: Q4 What are the ramifications for xforms-ready.
15:42:19 <Steven> Alain: We have subform-ready event in XSLT Forms
15:43:05 <Steven> TOPIC: Declarative Amsterdam
15:47:26 <Steven> Steven: It went well. I talked at length with the person from Fore, who are the people from Betterforms. We talked about possibilities of convergind.
15:47:57 <Steven> ... Good turnout, about 75 attendees, from all over the world, even in person. Next year is 2/3 Nov (Thurs/Friday)
15:48:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/11-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:51:24 <Steven> s/nirroring/mirroring
15:52:24 <Steven> s/convergind/converging
15:52:51 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/11-forms-minutes.html Steven
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