17:45:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:45:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-aria-irc
17:45:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:45:28 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:45:29 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:45:40 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:45:40 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:45:41 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b92a902-1365-4ea0-8c68-9f8ae2106fe3/20221110T130000
17:45:41 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:45:41 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3fUSx6h
17:45:41 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3G0YxVQ
17:45:43 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:45:46 <agendabot> agenda+  -> ARIA F2F 2023 https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeLND-jIx2qqeaIdOKmSPxMtK4C1buC71idfBwxcwEeaXXN-A/viewform?usp=sf_link
17:45:49 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Other elements which may need special description computation conditions? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/445
17:45:52 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69
17:45:55 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+
17:45:59 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Open PRs on ARIA https://github.com/w3c/aria/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Acreated-asc+is%3Aopen+draft%3Afalse
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18:00:56 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
18:01:58 <Adam_Page> present+
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18:03:30 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:08:49 <Adam_Page> scribe+
18:08:53 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:08:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3fUSx6h -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:09 <daniel-montalvo> present+
18:09:24 <CurtBellew> present+
18:09:24 <chlane> present+
18:09:31 <spectranaut> present+
18:09:32 <jcraig> present+
18:09:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: #1845
18:10:33 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:10:35 <jcraig> q+
18:10:42 <StefanS> present+
18:10:56 <Adam_Page> scotto: prevents possibility of img role="none" but with alt text from being exposed
18:11:10 <Adam_Page> jamesn: not exposed as a node in the tree at all?
18:11:35 <Adam_Page> scotto: from quick tests, yes, pruned from the tree.  SR couldn’t get to alt text at all
18:12:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: how to classify?
18:12:39 <Adam_Page> jcraig: would like interactive images to be _a thing_ in the future
18:13:03 <Adam_Page> jcraig: e.g., fully interactive SVG should be exposed as an image with content
18:13:27 <Adam_Page> jcraig: so want to make sure this proposal is compatible with that
18:13:36 <scotto> present+
18:14:03 <Adam_Page> jcraig: whatever the outcome is for this, it should not prevent a presentational image *with* exposeable content nodes
18:15:04 <Adam_Page> jamesn: need to clarify the “role="none" is equivalent to using `aria-hidden="true"`” language
18:15:10 <Adam_Page> scotto: this is triage
18:15:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we need clarification
18:15:58 <Adam_Page> jamesn: looking at 1.4 for this
18:16:19 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll take assignment and keep investigating
18:16:36 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:16:36 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
18:16:39 <Adam_Page> q?
18:16:43 <Adam_Page> ack jcraig
18:16:53 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:16:53 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3G0YxVQ -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:47 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:17:47 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, Adam_Page
18:18:02 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:18:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
18:18:03 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:18:03 <Zakim> 3. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
18:18:15 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:18:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:18:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: deep dive on Dec 8
18:18:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: do we want to plan aymore?
18:18:43 <Adam_Page> s/aymore/any more/
18:18:45 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
18:19:03 <Adam_Page> jamesn: consensus: no
18:19:09 <Adam_Page> jamesn: can do more next year
18:19:39 <jamesn> topic: holiday meetings
18:20:01 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we’ll meet next week unless people are out for Thanksgiving?
18:20:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we’ll keep on meeting up until Christmas
18:20:33 <Adam_Page> jamesn: will figure out which exact weeks we’ll take off
18:20:39 <Adam_Page> jamesn: if anyone has issues, let chairs know
18:20:44 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:20:44 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> ARIA F2F 2023 https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeLND-jIx2qqeaIdOKmSPxMtK4C1buC71idfBwxcwEeaXXN-A/viewform?usp=sf_link -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:21:01 <Adam_Page> jamesn: set up survey for face-to-face
18:21:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: have 8 responses so far, need more
18:21:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: want to measure appetite, and rough idea for location
18:22:09 <Adam_Page> siri: lot of budget cuts
18:22:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: will definitely have remote attendance options regardless
18:22:49 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:22:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Other elements which may need special description computation conditions? https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/445 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:23:21 <Adam_Page> jamesn: scotto, this one’s from you?
18:23:45 <Adam_Page> scotto: this is related to work on accname and html-aam updating description table
18:24:00 <Adam_Page> scotto: in doing that, mentioned interesting callouts to Aaron
18:24:27 <Adam_Page> scotto: e.g., summary element has a weird use case where if it’s given an author accessible name, like aria-label, then subtree should be converted to description
18:24:35 <Adam_Page> ... similar to button type with a value
18:24:44 <Adam_Page> ... that value becomes a description
18:24:49 <Adam_Page> ... kind of weird that we’re doing that
18:25:09 <Adam_Page> ... other elements don’t have this behavior
18:25:18 <Adam_Page> ... needs fixing
18:25:31 <Adam_Page> ... either elements with special conditions should have those conditions removed
18:25:42 <Adam_Page> ... or other elements should consistently get those same conditions
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18:26:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: or potentially we leave it how it is, and clarify the ones that have those conditions?
18:26:19 <Adam_Page> scotto: true, but some of these may actually fail Label in Name
18:26:30 <Adam_Page> jcraig: could add to characteristics table for those roles?
18:26:45 <Adam_Page> jcraig: would match current behavior now, and then we could modify table if needed
18:27:00 <Adam_Page> jcraig: would also confront us with the decision for any new roles that come in
18:27:23 <Adam_Page> jamesn: how would modifying this remediate the Label in Name issue?
18:27:32 <Adam_Page> scotto: you’re right, they would fail anyway
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18:27:43 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:28:05 <Adam_Page> jamesn: sometimes the visible label contains extra content that gives a bad SR experience
18:29:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we could consider deprecating the weird behavior
18:29:55 <Adam_Page> jamesn: but people may be relying on it
18:30:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: but I still grant that it’s difficult to justify; seems weird
18:30:31 <Adam_Page> jcraig: if we go with deprecation path, then we should definitely not update the characteristics table
18:30:48 <Adam_Page> jcraig: I support jamesn’s deprecation proposal
18:31:30 <Adam_Page> scotto: the only other elements that I investigated with potential could be hyperlinks, but now think that would be a bad idea based on this discussion
18:31:38 <Adam_Page> scotto: fieldset with legend is a squishy use case
18:31:49 <Adam_Page> scotto : option element with overwritten label text
18:31:55 <Adam_Page> scotto : this could expand into those cases
18:32:08 <Adam_Page> scotto: but if we do the deprecation path, it’s a signal that we’ll no longer do this
18:32:34 <Adam_Page> scotto : I just don’t get the use case for the elements where it’s been done
18:33:33 <Adam_Page> jamesn: although I proposed deprecation, I don’t know how we’d actually do that
18:33:39 <Adam_Page> scotto: need more people to weigh in
18:33:58 <Adam_Page> scotto: describe the 3 different options we’ve discussed and solicit feedback in the issue
18:34:13 <Adam_Page> jamesn: sounds similar to what James Teh has brought up
18:34:30 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this would be a description “guess” that the AT could choose how to expose
18:34:50 <Adam_Page> scotto: looping this back to triage, it’s a similar concept to img alt role="none"
18:35:13 <Adam_Page> scotto: maybe your point about having a new prop is the way to go
18:35:41 <Adam_Page> jamesn: `aria-shrug` ;-)
18:35:56 <Adam_Page> scotto: I actually like that one the most
18:36:01 <Adam_Page> scotto: could extend to other elements
18:36:04 <chlane> aria-any
18:36:13 <jamesn> aria-🤷‍♂️
18:36:47 <Adam_Page> scotto: becoming convinced that jcraig’s proposal is thge way to go
18:36:53 <Adam_Page> s/thge/the
18:37:09 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this issue does seem to be a repeating pattern
18:37:27 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we need to talk to AT makers and make sure they can work with it
18:37:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: need to set up a discussion with FS, NVDA, etc.
18:37:53 <Adam_Page> s/FS/Freedom Scientific/
18:38:00 <chlane> I like the additional property idea rather than making the concept of 'description' more complex for authors
18:38:17 <Adam_Page> jamesn: where is this on our priority list
18:39:09 <Adam_Page> scotto: to close this up, 2 paths forward
18:39:15 <Adam_Page> scotto: 1) potential deprecation
18:39:25 <Adam_Page> scotto: 2) potential new property to funnel this info into
18:39:31 <Adam_Page> scotto: need to see what appetite is
18:40:00 <Adam_Page> jamesn: and 3) do nothing, but explain why behavior is there for historical reason
18:40:11 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll write this up
18:40:36 <Adam_Page> scotto: I have enough context to shop this around
18:40:41 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:40:41 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Support aria-description https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/69 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:41:04 <Adam_Page> scotto: needs reviews
18:41:18 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this is blocking other things in accname, so need to get this in
18:41:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this changes a lot; can’t merge in any other PRs
18:41:43 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: who needs to review?
18:41:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: Bryan and Melanie
18:41:59 <Adam_Page> Bryan: I’ll review later today
18:42:46 <Adam_Page> scotto: you would never reference one’s self to get a description
18:42:57 <Adam_Page> jamesn: can add an editorial note to clarify
18:43:09 <jcraig> q+
18:43:32 <Adam_Page> jcraig: is there any opinion on my editorial feedback?
18:43:45 <Adam_Page> ... HTML caption is specifically referenced
18:43:53 <Adam_Page> ... we should take that out IMO
18:43:58 <Adam_Page> ... do others agree?
18:44:30 <Adam_Page> ... line 239 in the source
18:45:15 <Adam_Page> scotto: can’t find in latest version of PR
18:45:34 <Adam_Page> jcraig: nevermind
18:45:46 <Adam_Page> ack jcraig
18:46:06 <Adam_Page> scotto: maybe there’s a merge conflict?
18:46:35 <Adam_Page> jamesn: please move that one along
18:46:49 <Adam_Page> scotto: just need people to verify
18:47:29 <Adam_Page> jamesn: reviewers, please review
18:47:35 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:47:35 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+milestone%3A%22ARIA+1.3%22+sort%3Acreated-asc+label%3A1.3-Blocking+ -- taken up [from
18:47:38 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
18:48:02 <Adam_Page> jamesn:#1150 is on me
18:48:05 <Adam_Page> ... #1159
18:48:19 <Adam_Page> ... any updates?
18:48:26 <Adam_Page> ... #1161
18:48:49 <Adam_Page> ... depends on shigley’s PR
18:48:55 <Adam_Page> ... will look into that
18:49:14 <Adam_Page> ... #1824
18:49:36 <Adam_Page> ... what did we decide for this?
18:50:01 <Adam_Page> scotto: Wilco opened about aria-label and prohibited
18:50:12 <Adam_Page> jamesn: need an editorial note to confirm it’s global
18:50:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: decided in last meeting, need to look at minutes
18:50:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s look at sarahhigley’s PR
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18:50:55 <Adam_Page> s/shigley/sarahhigley/
18:51:27 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1454
18:51:46 <Adam_Page> jamesn: pinged me for editorial review
18:51:58 <Adam_Page> ... what else are we waiting for on this?
18:52:14 <Adam_Page> scotto: we should all take one more peek at it
18:52:27 <Adam_Page> jamesn: it’s not building successfully right now
18:52:45 <Adam_Page> jamesn: would like cyns, Aaron, and jcraig to give review
18:52:53 <Adam_Page> jamesn: need checkmarks of approval
18:53:43 <Adam_Page> scotto: I’ll do another quick review by EOD tomorrow
18:54:01 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this will unblock a lot of other stuff.  Should be our next merge
18:54:06 <Adam_Page> jamesn: everyone, put this at the top of your list
18:54:20 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:54:20 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Open PRs on ARIA https://github.com/w3c/aria/pulls?q=is%3Apr+sort%3Acreated-asc+is%3Aopen+draft%3Afalse -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:54:27 <Adam_Page> zakim, close item
18:54:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Adam_Page
18:54:38 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s adjourn
18:54:48 <Adam_Page> jamesn: please fill out face-to-face survey, everyone
18:54:57 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:54:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, daniel-montalvo, CurtBellew, chlane, spectranaut, jcraig, StefanS, scotto, MarkMcCarthy
18:54:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:54:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/11/10-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:55:03 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:55:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria